the ruler to come in Dan 9

[Pilgrimshope]

But that appears to be too simplistic for this discussion. As you should know, the covenant with Israel involved 2 elements, and not just 1. It involved both a promise and the dated conditions for that covenant to be fulfilled.

The dated conditions were imposed by the Law of Moses, which was a conditional agreement. As such, the covenant had to eliminate the dated conditions and revert back to the promise alone, so that there would no longer be any conditions on its fulfillment. The Law of Moses had to be both fulfilled and discarded.



They do not fully repent after the 70 Weeks. The opposite is stated. The rebuilt temple passes through 70 weeks and is then destroyed again! And that is due to the sin of Israel, which led to the death of Messiah.

One day the wicked will be removed from Israel so that the nation can be spiritually reborn. That will take place at the 2nd Coming of Christ, in my view.

isn’t that what the gospel is about ?

“And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭22:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27, 29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:13-14, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:2‬ ‭

“Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the earth even the earthly Jerusalem is destroyed forever and then he is going to restore everything with what he is already restoring in heaven new people “ born again “ in his kingdom eventually those thkngs innheaven with Christ come down on the new earth and Israel is restored eternally and all the promises will be fulfilled for all nations who God is creating a new isreal through accepting the seed of Abraham Jesus Christ which makes us his children and hoers according to the promise

“And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:2-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think if we don’t look up we’re going to miss what the being done

“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We should be looking up to see the restoration of Israel it’s happening already and will be revealed when he returns

 

[Pilgrimshope]

isn’t that what the gospel is about ?

“And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭22:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27, 29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:13-14, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:2‬ ‭

“Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the earth even the earthly Jerusalem is destroyed forever and then he is going to restore everything with what he is already restoring in heaven new people “ born again “ in his kingdom eventually those thkngs innheaven with Christ come down on the new earth and Israel is restored eternally and all the promises will be fulfilled for all nations who God is creating a new isreal through accepting the seed of Abraham Jesus Christ which makes us his children and hoers according to the promise

“And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:2-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think if we don’t look up we’re going to miss what the being done

“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We should be looking up to see the restoration of Israel it’s happening already and will be revealed when he returns

this sort of makes it clear that nothing on this earth is going to be restored

“But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7, 13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we should be looking to the promises found in Christ to see Israel’s restoration knowing the old has been fulfilled as the curse because they killed jesus cut the messiah off from the earth

 

[randyk]

But this is not true as far as lev 26 goes. It was said to be eternal. It was never discarded. paul makes this clear in Romans 11)

Then we are at odds, because I read Paul that the promise was eternal, and not the Law.
Gal 3.18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

The Jewish argument is that the Law is "for all your generations," and never to expire. They think the word of God and the Law of Moses are both eternal, when in fact Paul said the Law was for temporary use only.
Gal 3.24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

The Law was to be continuous, but not eternal. It was to continue until a better means of atonement was found, namely Christ's atonement.

The Law was for all Israel's generations until it came to completion, and until Israel's generations fell into apostasy, and failed the agreement. Then the new covenant took over.

To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,

This does not happen UNLESS they repent my friend

As I said before, this is talking about bringing sin in Israel to an end by judging and by destroying Israel. It's like seeing a tree completely covered by tent caterpillars, and the only way to wipe out the plague is by cutting down the tree and burning it.

God finished sin in Israel by taking apart national Israel and sending them into exile. Until they repent their national sin has been vanquished.

That is, I believe, the meaning of "finish the transgression." This was the "last straw," when the Jews killed their own Messiah. God decided to remove their status as "chosen nation" until the return of Christ and he removes the remaining resistance to the Christianization of Israel.

But God "finished sin" in Israel when Christ died on the cross, preparing the way for the 70 AD judgment of Israel. That's when "sin was finished," because national Israel ceased to exist for most of history up until recently.

As far as judging Israel's sin, that was accomplished on the cross, legally. And it will be enforced once again just prior to Christ's return, I believe.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Then we are at odds, because I read Paul that the promise was eternal, and not the Law.
Gal 3.18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

The Jewish argument is that the Law is "for all your generations," and never to expire. They think the word of God and the Law of Moses are both eternal, when in fact Paul said the Law was for temporary use only.
Gal 3.24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

The Law was to be continuous, but not eternal. It was to continue until a better means of atonement was found, namely Christ's atonement.

The Law was for all Israel's generations until it came to completion, and until Israel's generations fell into apostasy, and failed the agreement. Then the new covenant took over.

Paul is arguing from a salvic point. The law never saved anyone. the inheritance of eternal life and our heavenly gift is not according to the law.

Again. In Romans 11, Paul states equivocally. the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. He also says they will ALL be saved, And the OT prophets state they will repent. and when they do. God will remember the LAND. remember the PROMISES

As I said before, this is talking about bringing sin in Israel to an end by judging and by destroying Israel. It's like seeing a tree completely covered by tent caterpillars, and the only way to wipe out the plague is by cutting down the tree and burning it.

God finished sin in Israel by taking apart national Israel and sending them into exile. Until they repent their national sin has been vanquished.

That is, I believe, the meaning of "finish the transgression." This was the "last straw," when the Jews killed their own Messiah. God decided to remove their status as "chosen nation" until the return of Christ and he removes the remaining resistance to the Christianization of Israel.

But God "finished sin" in Israel when Christ died on the cross, preparing the way for the 70 AD judgment of Israel. That's when "sin was finished," because national Israel ceased to exist for most of history up until recently.

As far as judging Israel's sin, that was accomplished on the cross, legally. And it will be enforced once again just prior to Christ's return, I believe.

Sin in Israel continues today.

Your first step should be to read Dan 9 and others things from the authors point of view. Especially in Dan 9 where Daniel is given an answer to HIS PRAYER.

What did Daniels prayer concern?

1. The sin of Israel
2. The destruction of the city and temple
3. God promises
4. God name on the earth based on those promises

if we do as many and interpret Danial 9 outside of this context. We get it wrong.

 

[randyk]

Paul is arguing from a salvic point. The law never saved anyone. the inheritance of eternal life and our heavenly gift is not according to the law.

Again. In Romans 11, Paul states equivocally. the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. He also says they will ALL be saved, And the OT prophets state they will repent. and when they do. God will remember the LAND. remember the PROMISES

You're confirming what I said, that it's the *promises* and not the covenant of Law that are eternal and irrevocable. The covenant of Law was revocable, and it was revoked! Paul said so! But you don't address that--even though that is the main issue here.

So go ahead and agree with me that the promises of God will be fulfilled. And go ahead and ignore the fact the Law would always not only fail to save, but would also be *temporary.*

Sin in Israel continues today.

Your first step should be to read Dan 9 and others things from the authors point of view. Especially in Dan 9 where Daniel is given an answer to HIS PRAYER.

What did Daniels prayer concern?

1. The sin of Israel
2. The destruction of the city and temple
3. God promises
4. God name on the earth based on those promises

if we do as many and interpret Danial 9 outside of this context. We get it wrong.

I've been reading this passage for almost 50 years--don't try to assign me work to do on this. I've done the work. I've made the mistakes, and now I'm trying to get at the heart of what the prophecy is all about.

The prophecy is about Daniel's prayer for the ultimate salvation of Israel, which we all know will take place at Christ's 2nd Coming. But this particular prophecy is dealing strictly with the 1st Coming of Christ. Everything said in those 6 things were fulfilled by Jesus at his 1st Coming. And to confirm it we're told what would follow after immediately, namely the destruction of the temple and the city of Jerusalem.

So when the thing to be fulfilled is the end of sin in Israel it's talking about destroying Israel as was promised by Moses when he said that when Israel fails the covenant the people will be defeated and exiled.

This is how God ended sin in Israel--by destroying them, particularly in 70 AD, but in all the centuries following. Israel still has been unable to sin as God's chosen nation.

In fact, they stopped being God's chosen nation when they lost their covenant with God under the Law. This was symbolized by the destruction of the temple, which was at the core of the OT covenant.

Israel will only be able to function as a chosen nation again when they join Gentiles in the NT covenant of Christ. As I said, that will take place at the 2nd Coming. But that is not in view in this prophecy in Dan 9.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You're confirming what I said, that it's the *promises* and not the covenant of Law that are eternal and irrevocable. The covenant of Law was revocable, and it was revoked! Paul said so! But you don't address that--even though that is the main issue here.

Thats not true

Gen 17: 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in[f] which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

The issue with replacement theology is it tries to mix the eternal covenant of in you shall all the nations of the world be blessed (through Christ) with the eternal promise of I give you this land as an eternal gift.,

So go ahead and agree with me that the promises of God will be fulfilled. And go ahead and ignore the fact the Law would always not only fail to save, but would also be *temporary.*

This is not about the law or eternal salvation. So why are you continuing to try to discuss this?

I've been reading this passage for almost 50 years--don't try to assign me work to do on this. I've done the work. I've made the mistakes, and now I'm trying to get at the heart of what the prophecy is all about.

The prophecy is about Daniel's prayer for the ultimate salvation of Israel, which we all know will take place at Christ's 2nd Coming. But this particular prophecy is dealing strictly with the 1st Coming of Christ. Everything said in those 6 things were fulfilled by Jesus at his 1st Coming. And to confirm it we're told what would follow after immediately, namely the destruction of the temple and the city of Jerusalem.

So when the thing to be fulfilled is the end of sin in Israel it's talking about destroying Israel as was promised by Moses when he said that when Israel fails the covenant the people will be defeated and exiled.

This is how God ended sin in Israel--by destroying them, particularly in 70 AD, but in all the centuries following. Israel still has been unable to sin as God's chosen nation.

In fact, they stopped being God's chosen nation when they lost their covenant with God under the Law. This was symbolized by the destruction of the temple, which was at the core of the OT covenant.

Israel will only be able to function as a chosen nation again when they join Gentiles in the NT covenant of Christ. As I said, that will take place at the 2nd Coming. But that is not in view in this prophecy in Dan 9.

You need to study it some more then

Dan 9 - “Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The [h]street shall be built again, and the [i]wall,
Even in troublesome times.

Fulfilled when Jesus entered Jerusalem as the prophet said, riding on the foul of a donkey


26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall [j]be cut off, but not for Himself;

Fulfilled less than 7 days later.


And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

Fulfilled 40 years after the cross (we are already WAY past 70 weeks. or else there is a pause in the prophecy which was previously unforseen)


The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

In my view. Continues until today as the middle east continues to be at war. and the temple is still desolate, This also matched perfectly with what Jesus said in matt 24. There will be wars and rumers of wars. Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom.


27 Then he shall confirm a [k]covenant with many for one week;

Has not occurred yet.

But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the [l]desolate.”

The Abomination of desolation spoken of by Jesus himself in matt 24, Again, has yet to occur.

 

[randyk]

Thats not true

Gen 17: 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in[f] which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

The issue with replacement theology is it tries to mix the eternal covenant of in you shall all the nations of the world be blessed (through Christ) with the eternal promise of I give you this land as an eternal gift.,

Maybe you're getting me mixed up with somebody else. I'm *not* a Replacement Theologian! I believe that "Israel" refers to ethnic Israel. And I believe that Israel, though she has fallen, and Gentile nations have picked up her mantle, will be restored again at the 2nd Coming.

I do believe the land of Canaan is Israel's promised possession--eternally! But I also think that her failure under the Law has broken the covenant of Law, and has caused her to "temporarily* lose possession of her land.

Even today, as she sits in the land of ancient Canaan, still does not possess that land under covenant of God. That covenant was broken.

But she owns that land today by the mercy of God--by grace. And yet, she has still not yet received her promised land back under the New Covenant, as the Prophets said was necessary.

This is not about the law or eternal salvation. So why are you continuing to try to discuss this?

When you talk about things that suggest to me the Covenant of Law continues, I have to respond to it. If you agree that the Law of Moses was temporary, and fulfilled in a better covenant, just say so! And I'll stop talking about it.

Dan 9 - “Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The [h]street shall be built again, and the [i]wall,
Even in troublesome times.

Fulfilled when Jesus entered Jerusalem as the prophet said, riding on the foul of a donkey

Close, but I think that the 70th Week began with the Baptism of Jesus, or at the start of his earthly ministry.

26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall [j]be cut off, but not for Himself;

Fulfilled less than 7 days later.

Yes, Jesus was cut off in the midst of the 70th Week, or after 3.5 years of the 70th Week. In my view, this ended the 70 Weeks in the prophecy. But following it, it was prophesied that the city of Jerusalem and the temple would be destroyed by an army.

And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

Fulfilled 40 years after the cross (we are already WAY past 70 weeks. or else there is a pause in the prophecy which was previously unforseen)

Yes. 66-70 AD fulfilled Dan 9.26-27, which spoke of the people of the prince--an army--coming to destroy the "city and the sanctuary." And in vs. 27 the same thing is reiterated, when the "abomination of desolation" completes the destruction of the temple.

The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

In my view. Continues until today as the middle east continues to be at war. and the temple is still desolate, This also matched perfectly with what Jesus said in matt 24. There will be wars and rumers of wars. Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom.

I partly agree. The "wars and rumors of wars" were initial "birth pangs," which were warning signs of the imminent destruction of Jerusalem by an invading Army. But this act of "desolation" only started in 70 AD, because the desolation of the Jewish People wasn't finished just with the destruction of Jerusalem.

Much more, the people of Israel were scattered abroad and transported into exile--something that has lasted throughout the NT age. That's why Jesus said that they would be desolate until they say "blessed is he who comes." They will be restored only with the 2nd Coming of Messiah.

27 Then he shall confirm a [k]covenant with many for one week;

Has not occurred yet.

That's just your view. My view is that the prophecy is awkward and unbalanced unless it fits in with the other statements surrounding it. "He" is the one whose Army destroys the "city and the sanctuary." He is the one who confirms the covenant of Law by completing Jesus' earthly ministry by putting him to death. And he is the one who thereby puts an end to sacrifice and offering, by disposing of Messiah, leaving Israel desolate and without a Messiah. This led to the destruction of their country.

He also is the one who sets up the "abomination of desolation," which is the very Army designed to punish Israel. This happens both because the Romans are infuriated by the rebellion of the Jews and also because God is infuriated by the Jewish resistance to His covenants.

By applying all of these pronouns to the Roman leadership, all of these applications are able to cohesively fit in a single train of thought. This was all about the failure of Israel to obtain salvation after Nehemiah's restoration of Jerusalem.

In the end, Jewish intransigence would continue, and the temple of Herod would be thrown down. And the people of Israel would be scattered out of their land, being separated from any covenant with God until a new covenant can be established with a remnant of Jews who embrace Jesus.

But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the [l]desolate.”

The Abomination of desolation spoken of by Jesus himself in matt 24, Again, has yet to occur.

Not as I've related it. None of the prophecy in Dan 9 has a thing to do with futurism. It is all about Jesus' earthly ministry and the failure of the Jews to accept him at that time.

 

[Nehemiah6]

So how did the Roman leader(s) make this happen? He brought about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple from 70-135 AD. Leading up to this, Rome initially allowed the Jews to continue under their temple covenant during the ministry of Christ, which lasted 3.5 years. This was the 70th Week of the 70 Weeks Prophecy.

This interpretation in one form or another has been around for a long time. But it is false. The Abomination of Desolation triggers the Great Tribulation. And that is still in the future. "The prince that shall come" is the Antichrist.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Maybe you're getting me mixed up with somebody else. I'm *not* a Replacement Theologian! I believe that "Israel" refers to ethnic Israel. And I believe that Israel, though she has fallen, and Gentile nations have picked up her mantle, will be restored again at the 2nd Coming.

I do believe the land of Canaan is Israel's promised possession--eternally! But I also think that her failure under the Law has broken the covenant of Law, and has caused her to "temporarily* lose possession of her land.

Even today, as she sits in the land of ancient Canaan, still does not possess that land under covenant of God. That covenant was broken.

But she owns that land today by the mercy of God--by grace. And yet, she has still not yet received her promised land back under the New Covenant, as the Prophets said was necessary.



When you talk about things that suggest to me the Covenant of Law continues, I have to respond to it. If you agree that the Law of Moses was temporary, and fulfilled in a better covenant, just say so! And I'll stop talking about it.

I will be honest. Nothing you have said to me would make me believe this is what you think.. So I must ask you to forgive me

Close, but I think that the 70th Week began with the Baptism of Jesus, or at the start of his earthly ministry.

Nothing in the OT says this is how the messiah would be introduced. hence no jew would look to this as a sign of th messiah.

As I said. The only OT passage which introduces messiah is

Zechariah 9:9
The Coming King
“Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, Lowly and riding on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey


This is the only sign given of how the messiah will be introduced.

Yes, Jesus was cut off in the midst of the 70th Week, or after 3.5 years of the 70th Week. In my view, this ended the 70 Weeks in the prophecy. But following it, it was prophesied that the city of Jerusalem and the temple would be destroyed by an army.

No. He was cut off after (at the end) the 69th week. Not in the middle of the 70th. It does not fit.

Yes. 66-70 AD fulfilled Dan 9.26-27, which spoke of the people of the prince--an army--coming to destroy the "city and the sanctuary." And in vs. 27 the same thing is reiterated, when the "abomination of desolation" completes the destruction of the temple.

Thats no an abomination of desolation

An abomination of desolation is an unclean thing placed in a holy place. Rendering it unclean, which causes sacrifice and birth offering to cease.

We have precedence of this act when Antiochus epiphanies sacrificed a pig in the holy place causing sacrifice to cease until the holy placed was cleansed

And remember, Jesus said we would see it “stading in the holy place”

an abomination which causes desolation can not happen in a temple which is destroyed.

I partly agree. The "wars and rumors of wars" were initial "birth pangs," which were warning signs of the imminent destruction of Jerusalem by an invading Army. But this act of "desolation" only started in 70 AD, because the desolation of the Jewish People wasn't finished just with the destruction of Jerusalem.

Much more, the people of Israel were scattered abroad and transported into exile--something that has lasted throughout the NT age. That's why Jesus said that they would be desolate until they say "blessed is he who comes." They will be restored only with the 2nd Coming of Messiah.

I cant agree. I believe the birth pangs started within the last 100 years and keep getting worse. The fact Israel is back in her land and could start to build the third temple in any day is further proof at least to me this is the case.

70 AD was prophesied, And Daniel was told the temple and city will lay desolate for an appointed time.

That's just your view. My view is that the prophecy is awkward and unbalanced unless it fits in with the other statements surrounding it. "He" is the one whose Army destroys the "city and the sanctuary." He is the one who confirms the covenant of Law by completing Jesus' earthly ministry by putting him to death. And he is the one who thereby puts an end to sacrifice and offering, by disposing of Messiah, leaving Israel desolate and without a Messiah. This led to the destruction of their country.

He also is the one who sets up the "abomination of desolation," which is the very Army designed to punish Israel. This happens both because the Romans are infuriated by the rebellion of the Jews and also because God is infuriated by the Jewish resistance to His covenants.

By applying all of these pronouns to the Roman leadership, all of these applications are able to cohesively fit in a single train of thought. This was all about the failure of Israel to obtain salvation after Nehemiah's restoration of Jerusalem.

In the end, Jewish intransigence would continue, and the temple of Herod would be thrown down. And the people of Israel would be scattered out of their land, being separated from any covenant with God until a new covenant can be established with a remnant of Jews who embrace Jesus.



Not as I've related it. None of the prophecy in Dan 9 has a thing to do with futurism. It is all about Jesus' earthly ministry and the failure of the Jews to accept him at that time.

Once again, He is a future prince. Of the people who destroyed the city and sanctuary

Jesus did not put an end to sacrifice and burnt offering, They continued for another 4 decades even after the veil was torn in two. Until the temple was destroyed by the people of the prince who is to come

the sacrifice and burnt offerig ceases because an idol or unclean thing is put into the holy place rendering it unclean (the defenition of an abomination that makes desolate)

Dan 9 is about Israel and jerusalem. the only aspect concerning the messiah is that he will come at the end of the 69th week, then immediately get cut off. There is nothing about his earthly ministry included in the prophecy

Context does not support this 70 Ad fulfillment, especially since 70 AD does not even fall into the 70 weeks.

 

[rayzor]

sacrifice and birth offering to cease..Jesus did that.He desires mercy not sacrifice or i would give it said king David.I know we know this. that theirs hundrends of scriptures about him in the old testament concerning him in the nt even Jesus says so as he was walks with them.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Then we are at odds, because I read Paul that the promise was eternal, and not the Law.
Gal 3.18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

The Jewish argument is that the Law is "for all your generations," and never to expire. They think the word of God and the Law of Moses are both eternal, when in fact Paul said the Law was for temporary use only.
Gal 3.24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

The Law was to be continuous, but not eternal. It was to continue until a better means of atonement was found, namely Christ's atonement.

The Law was for all Israel's generations until it came to completion, and until Israel's generations fell into apostasy, and failed the agreement. Then the new covenant took over.



As I said before, this is talking about bringing sin in Israel to an end by judging and by destroying Israel. It's like seeing a tree completely covered by tent caterpillars, and the only way to wipe out the plague is by cutting down the tree and burning it.

God finished sin in Israel by taking apart national Israel and sending them into exile. Until they repent their national sin has been vanquished.

That is, I believe, the meaning of "finish the transgression." This was the "last straw," when the Jews killed their own Messiah. God decided to remove their status as "chosen nation" until the return of Christ and he removes the remaining resistance to the Christianization of Israel.

But God "finished sin" in Israel when Christ died on the cross, preparing the way for the 70 AD judgment of Israel. That's when "sin was finished," because national Israel ceased to exist for most of history up until recently.

As far as judging Israel's sin, that was accomplished on the cross, legally. And it will be enforced once again just prior to Christ's return, I believe.

Then we are at odds, because I read Paul that the promise was eternal, and not the Law.
Gal 3.18 “For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. “

“And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:14‬ ‭

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.”( v3:8-9)
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:16, 18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27, 29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

each verse doesn’t carry a seperate message that needs to be interpreted each verse is part of the message being conveyed .

Abraham’s promise is for all nations

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

consider what Galatians three says of you rad it as a whole chapter and singular message then Consider where he goes in chapter four as more of the same message

“For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:22-26, 28, 30-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

ishmael ( the old covenant ) was cast out and will not partake of the inheritance

 

[rayzor]

I know the bible says so but there's no old covenant..It's always.. been love faith rightness.With out such there is no love .And we know god is love.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I know the bible says so but there's no old covenant..It's always.. been love faith rightness.With out such there is no love .And we know god is love.

“And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭24:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭8:8-9, 13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven,

and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-25, 27-28‬ ‭

 

[rayzor]

Jer 7:22 Pilgrimshope
For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt,[Not] concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices

Jer 7:23
But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

 

[randyk]

This interpretation in one form or another has been around for a long time. But it is false. The Abomination of Desolation triggers the Great Tribulation. And that is still in the future. "The prince that shall come" is the Antichrist.

That is the worst form of proof--pure assertion! Your view has been around for eons. But it is false. My position is true. End of proof. You see how that goes?

At least I'm trying with an angle. I've been at this a long time, and now I'm trying to figure the pronoun "he" consistently in the passage. It appears that God is accomplishing something for His own purpose. And the Romans are accomplishing something for their own purpose. But the end result is what God has already planned and anticipated.

I used to hold to your position. However, inserting the AoD as a future reality into an ancient context doesn't work for me. But thanks for weighing in. I just wish you'd provided some proof for your position.

 

[randyk]

Then we are at odds, because I read Paul that the promise was eternal, and not the Law.
Gal 3.18 “For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. “

“And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:14‬ ‭

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.”( v3:8-9)
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:16, 18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27, 29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

each verse doesn’t carry a seperate message that needs to be interpreted each verse is part of the message being conveyed .

Abraham’s promise is for all nations

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

consider what Galatians three says of you rad it as a whole chapter and singular message then Consider where he goes in chapter four as more of the same message

“For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:22-26, 28, 30-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

ishmael ( the old covenant ) was cast out and will not partake of the inheritance

What's your point, brother? I know the Scriptures well.

 

[rayzor]

The Abomination of Desolation. The first one is sin itself. sin is also the mystery harlot in Rev.Sin = harlot dwells on the 7 hills because that's the 7 continents oh the world.Satan seat is our heart also where god dwells

 

[Pilgrimshope]

What's your point, brother? I know the Scriptures well.

well The point was the promise to Abraham was the gospel , and you were saying ( I thought ) that when israel rejected Jesus they are later going to somehow be restored by some other promise ?

but the gospel is the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham for all nations was the point it’s all explained in the chapter itself and doesn’t need interpretation Was kind of what I was saying

but yes I know that you know scripture like many others do. I was wondering about what you were interpreting about israel being restored in a different way just before he returns based on the wuote there from Galatians three

was making the point that it’s saying the promise is the gospel , and the seed promised is Christ , and getting baptized into Christ makes us Abraham’s seed and the heirs. And there’s no other inheritance to be had

 

[rayzor]

What's your point, brother? I know the Scriptures well.

Pilgrimshope and randyk It's really never been about the law.Even the bible say the law was for trangressers.Once your willing to head in the direction of god the rules are just there as a guide.This was true in the old and new testament.

 

[MattforJesus]

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

70 weeks are determined upon Israel and upon Jerusalem to make an end of sins, and bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy who is Jesus, and the only way they can make an end of sins is by accepting Jesus.

The nation of Israel has 70 weeks to be in the truth that Jesus is their Lord and Savior.

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

69 weeks has passed.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The 69 weeks are in the past when Jesus was on earth for after 62 weeks Messiah was cut off, but not for Himself but to shed His blood to wash away sins.

The weeks are years not actual days so that is 490 years.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

There is 1 more week to go which is 7 years and it will be the New Age Christ, antichrist, that will establish that peace treaty in the Middle East in an attempt to get the Jews to go along with his agenda.

The 7 years period is the time God causes all people who do not love Him to follow the antichrist and brings Israel to the truth that Jesus is their Lord and Savior fulfilling the 70 weeks determined upon Israel as a nation to be in the truth.

For the first three and one half years salvation is still available to the world, and all people who do not love God will be given strong delusion to follow the New Age Christ.

The last three and one half years the world persecutes the Christians and then comes the end when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father and put down all authority, power, and rule.

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

God will restore the kingdom to the nation of Israel.

Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Jer 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

God has not cast away His people but Israel shall never cease to be a nation and the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles of the Lamb is written in the New Jerusalem.

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Israel is the Church and it is Israel all the way from Abraham to Jacob, Israel, to Jesus to the millennial reign to the New Jerusalem, and when a Gentile is saved they are a Jew inward and belong to the commonwealth of Israel.

Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

God will bring the whole house of Israel back to Israel and leave none of them in the nations anymore, and they will know the LORD their God from that time forward and He will never hide His face from them again which means they will always be in the truth from that time forward.

This is a future prophecy when God restores the kingdom to the Jews for Israel is not in the truth as a nation.

Continued,