the ruler to come in Dan 9

[randyk]

A different view of Dan 9.
I'm seeing the 70 Weeks of Dan 9 a little differently than I have been. And I think it may make reading it a little more cohesive and readable, which should be what an account is all about.

Dan 9.24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

In vss. 26-27 there is a central character, the "ruler who will come," which I believe refers to the Roman leader--not a specific leader, but basically a position. He will do several things, it appears.
1) He will have his people destroy Jerusalem and the temple.
2) He will confirm a covenant with many for a Week, presumably of years.
3) He will put an end to sacrifice and offering in the middle of the Week.
4) He will set up an abomination that causes desolation.

What's different in my position now is that I used to think Christ was the one who confirms a covenant with many for a Week, and put an end to sacrifice and offering in the middle of the Week. But that seems to confuse the cohesiveness of the discourse, and muddy who is doing what. If we see all of the elements being orchestrated by a single entity, the Roman leadership, then it makes cohesive sense, and the prophecy seems to flow more evenly.

So how did the Roman leader(s) make this happen? He brought about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple from 70-135 AD. Leading up to this, Rome initially allowed the Jews to continue under their temple covenant during the ministry of Christ, which lasted 3.5 years. This was the 70th Week of the 70 Weeks Prophecy.

Then a Roman leader, Pontius Pilate, put Christ to death in the middle of this 70th Week, since Jesus died apparently after only 3.5 years of ministry--half of a Week. This put an end to divine acceptance of sacrifices and offerings made at the temple. The veil was rent at Jesus' death.

Finally, a Roman general set up an Army around Jerusalem and the temple, presenting an "abomination of desolation." It was a display of raw pagan power, set to destroy God's temple. There were actually 2 Roman generals involved in this, Cestius Gallus in 66 AD and Titus in 70 AD.

This seems to allow the passage to flow more smoothly in the vein of its context. The context, largely, has to do with the future of the temple and with the coming of Messiah.

Daniel is praying about the restoration of the temple, and God sends an angel to explain that over a 70 Weeks period the temple will be restored and remain as such until the coming of Messiah.

The rise of Rome, the 4th Kingdom Daniel mentioned earlier in chs. 2 and 7, will cooperate with this covenant in the time of Messiah, who comes in the 70th Week. During the time of Jesus, the Romans will all the Gospel of Messiah to be disseminated until he is judged and crucified.

The "end that is decreed" is either one of two options. Either this "end" is something decreed to end the temple by the "ruler who will come." Or, this end is something that will come to Rome itself, taking place in 476 AD. It depends on how the words apply.

Roman leadership did not immediately come to an end, but in 476 AD it did come to an end. The Roman imperial tradition continued in the East, and was later restored in the West. But the Western branch of the ancient Roman Empire did come to an end.

But the context seems rather to have to do with the cessation of Jewish worship, and perhaps the reference was to this, which happened at the destruction of the temple in 70 AD? After all, no immediate vengeance was poured out upon the Roman perpetrator of this judgment.

"And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

The word "him" here may also be translated at "it," apparently. As such, it may be rendered, more properly, as...

"And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on IT."

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Remember the messiah came and was cut off ?

then after that The ruler does this

“He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.”

So you know how I’m revelation there’s 3 and a half ? Then another theee and a half ? Half of seven ? Notice what happened to divide the two 3 and a half’s

So the first three and a half

“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:3-4, 7, KJV‬‬

Those two witnesses are key to understanding daniels prophecy and the division of the covenant coinciding with the messiah coming and being cut off

in scriptire the law and prophets( old covenant ) witness of Christ and his kingdom represented by Moses and Elijah who appeared next to Christ in glory on the mount of transfiguration

when he was crucified it severed Israel’s covenant because he was it’s fulfillment he was the prophets and law being fulfilled and sent to Israel but they did this and brought the curse

“And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

When the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭21:34-41‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the severing of Jesus from the earth by those of the covenant handed it over to the beast and withdrew the law and prophets covenant from earth because it was fulfilled and they rejected its culmination which was the messiah whom they cut off

it’s why the two witnesses go up to heaven after they die and raise up from death. so in the next chapter you see Jesus being taken into heaven which the law and prophets witnessed after his death and preaching of this kingdom

“And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:15, 19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Then The king was taken up to sit on that throne in heaven after establishing the new covenant which invites us into heavenly places no longer promise of the land of Israel but the promised land of Abraham ( Hebrews 11:16) rather than the children of Abram who defiled and left the land desolate killing thier lord and savior who was the answer of thier covenant

“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you now see the kingdom esrablisjed in heaven like it is now and Satan loosed on earth as he is now warring against the church during this period of the beast ( remember this overlaps he’s already came up In chapter eleven and killed the two witnesses the old covenant law and prophets .


“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

after the old covenant was fulfilled in Christ and it’s witness went up with him we have to carrying out of the war against the church which constitutes the second measure of three and a half


“And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

daniels beast is that same beast

“And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:20-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Just a thought for you if you followed what I was attempting to say the sevens aren’t literal periods of time they would have been but israel cut off thier savior and that ended thoer covenant now they can be saved like Peter and Paul and them by the New Testament gospel and they can be saved onto the eternal
Kingdom and true promised land in the heavens and one day will return and fill the earth with Gods people.

I enjoyed the read

seven became a measure of a period of time one half for the law and prophets and one half for the speeding of the gospel

 

[jb]

I did a blog on Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy, you can find it Here and Here...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

the people of the prince who is to come destroy the city.

after th city is destroyed, It lays desolate until the end of war desolations. And comes with a flood.

THEN the prince who is to come confirms a covenant.

War desolation continue in jersualem till this day. And no one has confirmed a covenant with many for 1 week (7 years)

 

[randyk]

Remember the messiah came and was cut off ?

then after that The ruler does this

“He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.”

So you know how I’m revelation there’s 3 and a half ? Then another theee and a half ? Half of seven ? Notice what happened to divide the two 3 and a half’s

So the first three and a half

“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:3-4, 7, KJV‬‬

Those two witnesses are key to understanding daniels prophecy and the division of the covenant coinciding with the messiah coming and being cut off

in scriptire the law and prophets( old covenant ) witness of Christ and his kingdom represented by Moses and Elijah who appeared next to Christ in glory on the mount of transfiguration

when he was crucified it severed Israel’s covenant because he was it’s fulfillment he was the prophets and law being fulfilled and sent to Israel but they did this and brought the curse

“And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

When the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭21:34-41‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the severing of Jesus from the earth by those of the covenant handed it over to the beast and withdrew the law and prophets covenant from earth because it was fulfilled and they rejected its culmination which was the messiah whom they cut off

it’s why the two witnesses go up to heaven after they die and raise up from death. so in the next chapter you see Jesus being taken into heaven which the law and prophets witnessed after his death and preaching of this kingdom

“And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:15, 19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Then The king was taken up to sit on that throne in heaven after establishing the new covenant which invites us into heavenly places no longer promise of the land of Israel but the promised land of Abraham ( Hebrews 11:16) rather than the children of Abram who defiled and left the land desolate killing thier lord and savior who was the answer of thier covenant

“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you now see the kingdom esrablisjed in heaven like it is now and Satan loosed on earth as he is now warring against the church during this period of the beast ( remember this overlaps he’s already came up In chapter eleven and killed the two witnesses the old covenant law and prophets .


“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

after the old covenant was fulfilled in Christ and it’s witness went up with him we have to carrying out of the war against the church which constitutes the second measure of three and a half


“And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

daniels beast is that same beast

“And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:20-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Just a thought for you if you followed what I was attempting to say the sevens aren’t literal periods of time they would have been but israel cut off thier savior and that ended thoer covenant now they can be saved like Peter and Paul and them by the New Testament gospel and they can be saved onto the eternal
Kingdom and true promised land in the heavens and one day will return and fill the earth with Gods people.

I enjoyed the read

seven became a measure of a period of time one half for the law and prophets and one half for the speeding of the gospel

Thanks for sharing your perspective. I get a little dizzy weaving in and out from one passage to another. I prefer to interpret each passage independently, to ensure I have each piece correct. But certainly each passage is drawing upon previous passages, and we would be wise to compare them.

I do take the 70 Weeks of Daniel literally as 70 Weeks of years, since from the time of Artaxerxes decree to restore Jerusalem to the death of Christ places us right in the middle of the 70th Week--quite literally. From 457 to 30 AD we have 69.5 Weeks.

But I don't equate the 70th Week of Daniel with the 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign, although I used to hold to that position. I believe the 3.5 years of Antichrist's rule originates from Daniel's vision in ch. 7, where the "Little Horn" reigns for a "time, times, and half a time."

The book of Revelation picks up on this them of 3.5 years of Antichrist's rule, and we see that period of time referred to also as 42 months or as 1260 days. I don't see anywhere that a 2nd period of 3.5 years is to be added onto it?

But yes, when Rome, via Pontius Pilate, cut off Christ, this terminated Jewish religion and God's covenant with Israel. Israel's hope, and the hope of all Christian nations, has now become the hope contained in the New Covenant of Christ, through his resurrection from the dead. Our lot is not in the fiery ordeal mankind is presently going through. But our lot is in a new immortal existence, after our resurrection and rapture.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thanks for sharing your perspective. I get a little dizzy weaving in and out from one passage to another. I prefer to interpret each passage independently, to ensure I have each piece correct. But certainly each passage is drawing upon previous passages, and we would be wise to compare them.

I do take the 70 Weeks of Daniel literally as 70 Weeks of years, since from the time of Artaxerxes decree to restore Jerusalem to the death of Christ places us right in the middle of the 70th Week--quite literally. From 457 to 30 AD we have 69.5 Weeks.

But I don't equate the 70th Week of Daniel with the 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign, although I used to hold to that position. I believe the 3.5 years of Antichrist's rule originates from Daniel's vision in ch. 7, where the "Little Horn" reigns for a "time, times, and half a time."

The book of Revelation picks up on this them of 3.5 years of Antichrist's rule, and we see that period of time referred to also as 42 months or as 1260 days. I don't see anywhere that a 2nd period of 3.5 years is to be added onto it?

But yes, when Rome, via Pontius Pilate, cut off Christ, this terminated Jewish religion and God's covenant with Israel. Israel's hope, and the hope of all Christian nations, has now become the hope contained in the New Covenant of Christ, through his resurrection from the dead. Our lot is not in the fiery ordeal mankind is presently going through. But our lot is in a new immortal existence, after our resurrection and rapture.

May I ask how you get 69.5 weeks?

The prophecy says from the time to build until messiah is 69 weeks. Then immediately after his is cut off. (Literally at the end of the 69th week, messiah is cut off) so where do we get the 3.5 years?

Thank you

 

[randyk]

May I ask how you get 69.5 weeks?

The prophecy says from the time to build until messiah is 69 weeks. Then immediately after his is cut off. (Literally at the end of the 69th week, messiah is cut off) so where do we get the 3.5 years?

Thank you

My view is a very common one, also held by most of the Church Fathers, I believe, though on some points of this prophecy there is some divergence of interpretation. Cyrus made the original decree (530s. BC) to restore Jerusalem, and the project proceeded to take place in stages and over time. By the time of Artaxerxes, the temple had been built, but the worship still required fine-tuning, and the city had still not been built.

And so, in 457 BC Artaxerxes made his own decree, in the spirit of Cyrus' decree, to proceed with the project. And as Daniel indicated, by the time 7 "weeks" passed, ie 49 years, the city of Jerusalem had been completed rebuilt, beginning with the walls built by Nehemiah. Then for another 62 "weeks" Jerusalem and its temple worship continued in place until the beginning of Christ's ministry in approx. 26 AD.

My interpretation is that Messiah's ministry of approx. half a "week" begins as the first half of the 70th Week, and not before. The 70th Week is terminated in the *middle* of the "week" when the Romans cut off Christ, thus terminating the value of temple sacrifice and offering.

From 457 BC to 26 AD is 483 years. And Jesus ministered for approx. 3.5 years until approx. 30 AD. So the time of Jesus' ministry, from 26-30 AD takes us to 486.5 years. And this is where Pontius Pilate cut off Messiah, ending the 70th year in the middle of it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My view is a very common one, also held by most of the Church Fathers, I believe, though on some points of this prophecy there is some divergence of interpretation. Cyrus made the original decree (530s. BC) to restore Jerusalem, and the project proceeded to take place in stages and over time. By the time of Artaxerxes, the temple had been built, but the worship still required fine-tuning, and the city had still not been built.

And so, in 457 BC Artaxerxes made his own decree, in the spirit of Cyrus' decree, to proceed with the project. And as Daniel indicated, by the time 7 "weeks" passed, ie 49 years, the city of Jerusalem had been completed rebuilt, beginning with the walls built by Nehemiah. Then for another 62 "weeks" Jerusalem and its temple worship continued in place until the beginning of Christ's ministry in approx. 26 AD.

My interpretation is that Messiah's ministry of approx. half a "week" begins as the first half of the 70th Week, and not before. The 70th Week is terminated in the *middle* of the "week" when the Romans cut off Christ, thus terminating the value of temple sacrifice and offering.

From 457 BC to 26 AD is 483 years. And Jesus ministered for approx. 3.5 years until approx. 30 AD. So the time of Jesus' ministry, from 26-30 AD takes us to 486.5 years. And this is where Pontius Pilate cut off Messiah, ending the 70th year in the middle of it.

ok. I think you misunderstood me, I was speaking of the prophecy itself.

“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

here we have from the command to restore until messiah is 69 weeks. So 69 weeks occure before messiah comes

after this, Gabriel says this...

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off,

the word "after" literally means behind, afterwards. Ir following. It has the meaning of the next item on the list.

So according to this

at the end of the 69th week, we have messiah, And immediatly after he gets killed.

I do not see how this leaves room for the 3.5 years your proposing. and even if it did. What are you using for your prophetic view of when Messiah the prince came according to OT prophets? I can only think of one passage. but maybe I am missing one

 

[rayzor]

A different view of Dan 9.
I'm seeing the 70 Weeks of Dan 9 a little differently than I have been. And I think it may make reading it a little more cohesive and readable, which should be what an account is all about.

Dan 9.24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

In vss. 26-27 there is a central character, the "ruler who will come," which I believe refers to the Roman leader--not a specific leader, but basically a position. He will do several things, it appears.
1) He will have his people destroy Jerusalem and the temple.
2) He will confirm a covenant with many for a Week, presumably of years.
3) He will put an end to sacrifice and offering in the middle of the Week.
4) He will set up an abomination that causes desolation.

What's different in my position now is that I used to think Christ was the one who confirms a covenant with many for a Week, and put an end to sacrifice and offering in the middle of the Week. But that seems to confuse the cohesiveness of the discourse, and muddy who is doing what. If we see all of the elements being orchestrated by a single entity, the Roman leadership, then it makes cohesive sense, and the prophecy seems to flow more evenly.

So how did the Roman leader(s) make this happen? He brought about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple from 70-135 AD. Leading up to this, Rome initially allowed the Jews to continue under their temple covenant during the ministry of Christ, which lasted 3.5 years. This was the 70th Week of the 70 Weeks Prophecy.

Then a Roman leader, Pontius Pilate, put Christ to death in the middle of this 70th Week, since Jesus died apparently after only 3.5 years of ministry--half of a Week. This put an end to divine acceptance of sacrifices and offerings made at the temple. The veil was rent at Jesus' death.

Finally, a Roman general set up an Army around Jerusalem and the temple, presenting an "abomination of desolation." It was a display of raw pagan power, set to destroy God's temple. There were actually 2 Roman generals involved in this, Cestius Gallus in 66 AD and Titus in 70 AD.

This seems to allow the passage to flow more smoothly in the vein of its context. The context, largely, has to do with the future of the temple and with the coming of Messiah.

Daniel is praying about the restoration of the temple, and God sends an angel to explain that over a 70 Weeks period the temple will be restored and remain as such until the coming of Messiah.

The rise of Rome, the 4th Kingdom Daniel mentioned earlier in chs. 2 and 7, will cooperate with this covenant in the time of Messiah, who comes in the 70th Week. During the time of Jesus, the Romans will all the Gospel of Messiah to be disseminated until he is judged and crucified.

The "end that is decreed" is either one of two options. Either this "end" is something decreed to end the temple by the "ruler who will come." Or, this end is something that will come to Rome itself, taking place in 476 AD. It depends on how the words apply.

Roman leadership did not immediately come to an end, but in 476 AD it did come to an end. The Roman imperial tradition continued in the East, and was later restored in the West. But the Western branch of the ancient Roman Empire did come to an end.

But the context seems rather to have to do with the cessation of Jewish worship, and perhaps the reference was to this, which happened at the destruction of the temple in 70 AD? After all, no immediate vengeance was poured out upon the Roman perpetrator of this judgment.

"And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

The word "him" here may also be translated at "it," apparently. As such, it may be rendered, more properly, as...

"And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on IT."

randyk Those r called similitude ...abomination that causes desolation, is put inside us..but understand its already there & theirs no reel reason to run 2 the mountains.know not that Jerusalem is the heart and has killed the prophets.Jesus has said if this was my kingdom i would fight 4 it.If u see.. the battles is 4 your own mind.To put it another way.The kingdom of god is not carnal.

 

[randyk]

ok. I think you misunderstood me, I was speaking of the prophecy itself.

“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

here we have from the command to restore until messiah is 69 weeks. So 69 weeks occure before messiah comes

after this, Gabriel says this...

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off,

the word "after" literally means behind, afterwards. Ir following. It has the meaning of the next item on the list.

So according to this

at the end of the 69th week, we have messiah, And immediatly after he gets killed.

I do not see how this leaves room for the 3.5 years your proposing. and even if it did. What are you using for your prophetic view of when Messiah the prince came according to OT prophets? I can only think of one passage. but maybe I am missing one

Yes, we really must be missing what the other is saying? I'm saying that 483 years lapsed from Artaxerxes' decree until the beginning of Christ's ministry, which lasted for 3.5 more years. This brings us to 486.5 years. The remaining 3.5 years of the 70th Week go away because the 70th Week was completed in the "middle" of the Week.

So the 3.5 years that I'm proposing is the 3.5 years of Jesus' ministry, which follows the 69 Weeks. On the other hand, the 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign, mentioned in Dan 7 and in the book of Revelation, is a completely separate prophecy from the 70 Weeks prophecy. It takes place at the end of the age, just before Christ returns.

 

[randyk]

randyk Those r called similitude ...abomination that causes desolation, is put inside us..but understand its already there & theirs no reel reason to run 2 the mountains.know not that Jerusalem is the heart and has killed the prophets.Jesus has said if this was my kingdom i would fight 4 it.If u see.. the battles is 4 your own mind.To put it another way.The kingdom of god is not carnal.

I understand that you're spiritualizing these prophecies. And certainly there is always a spiritual emphasis on everything the Bible has to say to us. After all, God indwells our spirits. And if we are to be renewed spiritually, it must be by spiritual means.

But this doesn't mean that the Kingdom of God is not physical, or "carnal," as you're putting it. The Kingdom of God was actually *in Israel* in the OT era. They ran together, such that the spiritual embrace of Israel's physical kingdom made that kingdom a temporary, physical form of the Kingdom of God on earth.

And as you know, the Kingdom of God is coming again in the physical, real sense--at least I hope you realize this? There will be a new heaven and a new earth.

Comparing Matthew 24 and Mark 13 with Luke 21 we can see how Jesus interpreted the Abomination of Desolation, mentioned in Dan 9.27. In the same place where Matthew and Mark mentioned the AoD, Luke describes an invading Army surrounding Jerusalem, preparing to desolate it and the temple. In other words, the AoD *is* the Roman Army, invading Jerusalem 66-70 AD. It is a real, physical phenomenon.

The Jewish believers who took Jesus' warning to leave seriously did escape with their lives. History records it as a flight to Pella. It was a real, physical flight.

This is my studied opinion. I recommend reading some commentaries on the passages. The commentators are not always right, of course. But being scholarly and good Christians they can help give you a sense of the context and why they believe as they do. Then you can form a more broadly-informed opinion.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, we really must be missing what the other is saying? I'm saying that 483 years lapsed from Artaxerxes' decree until the beginning of Christ's ministry, which lasted for 3.5 more years. This brings us to 486.5 years. The remaining 3.5 years of the 70th Week go away because the 70th Week was completed in the "middle" of the Week.

So the 3.5 years that I'm proposing is the 3.5 years of Jesus' ministry, which follows the 69 Weeks. On the other hand, the 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign, mentioned in Dan 7 and in the book of Revelation, is a completely separate prophecy from the 70 Weeks prophecy. It takes place at the end of the age, just before Christ returns.

which again I ask, how can that be if the prophesy says there will be 69 weeks until messiah, not 69.5 weeks

there was also no abomination of desolation which marked the middle of the week. And also when did the prince confirm a covenant for 1 week

 

[rayzor]

I understand that you're spiritualizing these prophecies. And certainly there is always a spiritual emphasis on everything the Bible has to say to us. After all, God indwells our spirits. And if we are to be renewed spiritually, it must be by spiritual means.

But this doesn't mean that the Kingdom of God is not physical, or "carnal," as you're putting it. The Kingdom of God was actually *in Israel* in the OT era. They ran together, such that the spiritual embrace of Israel's physical kingdom made that kingdom a temporary, physical form of the Kingdom of God on earth.

And as you know, the Kingdom of God is coming again in the physical, real sense--at least I hope you realize this? There will be a new heaven and a new earth.

Comparing Matthew 24 and Mark 13 with Luke 21 we can see how Jesus interpreted the Abomination of Desolation, mentioned in Dan 9.27. In the same place where Matthew and Mark mentioned the AoD, Luke describes an invading Army surrounding Jerusalem, preparing to desolate it and the temple. In other words, the AoD *is* the Roman Army, invading Jerusalem 66-70 AD. It is a real, physical phenomenon.

The Jewish believers who took Jesus' warning to leave seriously did escape with their lives. History records it as a flight to Pella. It was a real, physical flight.

This is my studied opinion. I recommend reading some commentaries on the passages. The commentators are not always right, of course. But being scholarly and good Christians they can help give you a sense of the context and why they believe as they do. Then you can form a more broadly-informed opinion.

u know this: those that seek to save their life by running or staying shall lose it.If one walks in the spirit the other stuff will take care of itself.The word does not say walk in flesh so that u do not fulfill the lust of the spirit. that b like having the but of a serpent ...ass back ward.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, we really must be missing what the other is saying? I'm saying that 483 years lapsed from Artaxerxes' decree until the beginning of Christ's ministry, which lasted for 3.5 more years. This brings us to 486.5 years. The remaining 3.5 years of the 70th Week go away because the 70th Week was completed in the "middle" of the Week.

So the 3.5 years that I'm proposing is the 3.5 years of Jesus' ministry, which follows the 69 Weeks. On the other hand, the 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign, mentioned in Dan 7 and in the book of Revelation, is a completely separate prophecy from the 70 Weeks prophecy. It takes place at the end of the age, just before Christ returns.

this makes no sense

again I ask you, Who confirmed the covenant for 1 week. And when

When did the abomination of desolation take place?

if the 70 weeks are completed. When did all the things Gabriel said would happen tat the end still have not yet happened?

You claim until messiah the prince. When in the OT were we told messiah would be given to Israel by his baptism of John? Since I assume that is what you are using? Because I can not find it. And if we are gowing to use that as the the date of messiah we must have it written.

My scripture tells me messiah will be introduced riding On a donkey. And then being “cut off” immediately following this occurrence. Which fits the prophecy perfectly.

 

[randyk]

which again I ask, how can that be if the prophesy says there will be 69 weeks until messiah, not 69.5 weeks

there was also no abomination of desolation which marked the middle of the week. And also when did the prince confirm a covenant for 1 week

Okay, I'll try again. The prophecy, in my view, says there will be 69 weeks until Messiah comes, yes. Technically, I believe that there was 69 weeks until a covenant was confirmed by some entity, whether Christ himself or the Roman government. That confirmation began at the point at which Christ came in ministry.

And so, it was 69 weeks until the Messiah began his ministry. This was not 69 weeks until Messiah was born, but 69 weeks until he entered into ministry at about 30 years old.

There is one more week *after* the 69 weeks. 1st 7 weeks, then 62 weeks, and finally the 70th week. It is in this 70th week that something happens to end sacrifice and offering under the Law. And this event was the putting to death of Messiah by the Romans. It in effect ended God's recognition of those sacrifices, even though they continued to be offered for another 40 years.

And so, it was after 3.5 years of the 70th Week that this event took place, the crucifixion of Christ. This was *not,* in my view, the Abomination of Desolation. Rather, it was the putting to death of the Anointed One, and the termination of sacrifice and offering in the eyes of God.

This took place in the "midst" of the 70th Week, meaning that we have 69.5 weeks fulfilling the prophecy of the 70 Weeks. I don't understand where your confusion is, unless you somehow conflate the cutting off of Christ with the AoD?

The prophecy of the 70 Weeks also speaks of the destruction of the city and the sanctuary. We know this happened 40 years *after* the completion of the 70 Weeks. Jesus said the exact same thing in his Olivet Discourse when he claimed that within his generation, ie the generation of his death, the Roman Army would come against Jerusalem and the temple. And he called it the AoD.

 

[randyk]

u know this: those that seek to save their life by running or staying shall lose it.If one walks in the spirit the other stuff will take care of itself.The word does not say walk in flesh so that u do not fulfill the lust of the spirit. that b like having the but of a serpent ...ass back ward.

Yes, you should walk in the Spirit. I agree with you on this.

 

[randyk]

this makes no sense

again I ask you, Who confirmed the covenant for 1 week. And when

When did the abomination of desolation take place?

if the 70 weeks are completed. When did all the things Gabriel said would happen tat the end still have not yet happened?

You claim until messiah the prince. When in the OT were we told messiah would be given to Israel by his baptism of John? Since I assume that is what you are using? Because I can not find it. And if we are gowing to use that as the the date of messiah we must have it written.

My scripture tells me messiah will be introduced riding On a donkey. And then being “cut off” immediately following this occurrence. Which fits the prophecy perfectly.

There are a couple of different approaches to this. One is that the covenant was the covenant of Law that Christ came to confirm in his ministry. He confirmed the Law by fulfilling everything he tried and failed to do--everything that it promised Christ himself would be able to do. This is the view I've traditionally held to.

The other view, which I'm considering now, is that the Roman government somehow confirmed the covenant of God to offer his Son by committing him to death. The death was to complete the Week--not to last for the whole Week. It was to complete the final period of the 70 Weeks by finishing Christ's 3.5 year ministry by putting him to death.

The 6 things this prophecy was designed to do was basically the same thing Jesus did in his Olivet Discourse. Just when the Disciples thought Herod's refurbished temple was the glory of God Jesus said it would be destroyed. Similarly, just when Daniel heard that the temple and the city would be restored he was told that 70 Weeks of years later it would all be destroyed again.

This is because God was showing Daniel that Israel's sins would not go away with time. The whole process of restoration and a return to sin would be shown to be repeated in history. The restoration of the temple did not mean the final repentance of Israel--it was just a moment in time. Sin in Israel would soon return, and get worse.

The Messiah would come not to bring in the Kingdom of God, but rather, to prepare for the destruction of Jerusalem as a final cleansing of the Jewish People. Their worship would be taken away, and the Roman nation would receive their own opportunity to be the "Chosen Nation."

The 6 things Jesus oversaw was...

...to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

Messiah would prepare for the end of sin in Israel by demolishing them and their city. He would atone for wickedness by dying in the midst of Israel's sin, bringing forgiveness for the repentant. He would bring in everlasting righteousness by disposing of the need for temporary atonement under the Law--he would rise from the dead to intercede for his people forever. He would seal up vision and prophecy at the Cross when he said, "It is finished." And he anointed the Most Holy Place by becoming the Holy One in God's heavenly temple.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Thanks for sharing your perspective. I get a little dizzy weaving in and out from one passage to another. I prefer to interpret each passage independently, to ensure I have each piece correct. But certainly each passage is drawing upon previous passages, and we would be wise to compare them.

I do take the 70 Weeks of Daniel literally as 70 Weeks of years, since from the time of Artaxerxes decree to restore Jerusalem to the death of Christ places us right in the middle of the 70th Week--quite literally. From 457 to 30 AD we have 69.5 Weeks.

But I don't equate the 70th Week of Daniel with the 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign, although I used to hold to that position. I believe the 3.5 years of Antichrist's rule originates from Daniel's vision in ch. 7, where the "Little Horn" reigns for a "time, times, and half a time."

The book of Revelation picks up on this them of 3.5 years of Antichrist's rule, and we see that period of time referred to also as 42 months or as 1260 days. I don't see anywhere that a 2nd period of 3.5 years is to be added onto it?

But yes, when Rome, via Pontius Pilate, cut off Christ, this terminated Jewish religion and God's covenant with Israel. Israel's hope, and the hope of all Christian nations, has now become the hope contained in the New Covenant of Christ, through his resurrection from the dead. Our lot is not in the fiery ordeal mankind is presently going through. But our lot is in a new immortal existence, after our resurrection and rapture.

I would suggest starting at this point and working outward because we know when and where this event happened

“And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭9:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s only happened one time I’m sure we can agree Daniel had foretold it Jesus also had explained it

“But last of all he sent unto them his son, ( messiah ) saying, They will reverence my son.

But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭21:37-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And of course it was fulfilled as israel demanded his death

“And they were instant with loud voices, requiring that he might be crucified. And the voices of them and of the chief priests prevailed.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:23‬ ‭

the revelation gives apocolypse into it all I’m just meaning to say if we always start with Jesus and the events that happened in the gospel those ot prophecies are going to be better understood

after he was cut off from earth this occurred

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the uncovering of all of it is helped along here

“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but notice how the subject remains the same even though it’s written all throughout ? Anyways I appreciate your patience and will let you continue in your thread eas just a suggestion of some other scripture

 

[randyk]

I would suggest starting at this point and working outward because we know when and where this event happened

“And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭9:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s only happened one time I’m sure we can agree Daniel had foretold it Jesus also had explained it

“But last of all he sent unto them his son, ( messiah ) saying, They will reverence my son.

But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭21:37-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And of course it was fulfilled as israel demanded his death

“And they were instant with loud voices, requiring that he might be crucified. And the voices of them and of the chief priests prevailed.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:23‬ ‭

the revelation gives apocolypse into it all I’m just meaning to say if we always start with Jesus and the events that happened in the gospel those ot prophecies are going to be better understood

after he was cut off from earth this occurred

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the uncovering of all of it is helped along here

“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but notice how the subject remains the same even though it’s written all throughout ? Anyways I appreciate your patience and will let you continue in your thread eas just a suggestion of some other scripture

You can't go wrong putting Jesus up front and focusing on him and on what he did. Thanks!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You can't go wrong putting Jesus up front and focusing on him and on what he did. Thanks!

amen dear brother the beginning and end but his words also are also key to unlock the mysteries of prophecy

“And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭9:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

just before his death

“Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Which led to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple and the perpetual desolations of earth until this war ends


“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬