Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Evmur]

This question has already been answered.. #217. Remember when you said evangelicals have never answered your questions? but it turns out they actually have!!

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"In the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, we are looking at man redeemed and saved, and man condemned and lost. A casual reading seems to suggest that salvation is the result of good works. The “sheep” acted charitably, giving food, drink, and clothing to the needy. The “goats” showed no charity. This seems to result in salvation for the sheep and damnation for the goats.

However, Scripture does not contradict itself, and the Bible clearly and repeatedly teaches that salvation is by faith through the grace of God and not by our good works (see John 1:12; Acts 15:11; Romans 3:22-24; Romans 4:4-8; Romans 7:24-25; Romans 8:12; Galatians 3:6-9; and Ephesians 2:8-10). In fact, Jesus Himself makes it clear in the parable that the salvation of the “sheep” is not based on their works—their inheritance was theirs “since the creation of the world” (Matthew 25:34), long before they could ever do any good works!


The good works mentioned in the parable are not the cause of salvation but the effect of salvation. As Christians we become like Christ (see Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 3:18; and Colossians 2:6-7). Galatians 5:22 tells us that the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control. Good works in a Christian’s life are the direct overflow of these traits, and are only acceptable to God because of the relationship that exists between servant and Master, the saved and their Savior, the sheep and their Shepherd (see Ephesians 2:10).

The core message of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats is that God’s people will love others. Good works will result from our relationship to the Shepherd. Followers of Christ will treat others with kindness, serving them as if they were serving Christ Himself. The unregenerate live in the opposite manner. While “goats” can indeed perform acts of kindness and charity, their hearts are not right with God, and their actions are not for the right purpose – to honor and worship God. -https://www.gotquestions.org/parable-sheep-goats.html "
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The view you hold is actually very sad, because you diminish the work of Christ.




Hopefully now you will see that you are contradicting scriputure.

No that is a fudge, that is dodging what is obvious from the scripture, a feeble attempt to explain away the glaring contradiction between the bible position and the Evangelical doctrine.

We will not figure at all in this judgement, we are passed from judgement to life. The resurrection of the just is PROOF that we will not be judged.

Those righteous sheep cannot possibly be the church. It is a contradiction of scripture.

 

[Gideon300]

Great point!!

All 3 tenses point to being saved.

Past tense salvation: saved from the penalty of sin.
Present tense salvation: saved from the power of sin.
Future tense salvation: saved from the presence of sin.


Amen.

And there is more! A free pack of steak knives..... Just kidding.

We are born again instantly which is the work of God. This gives us new life.
We will experience the salvation of the soul depending on our willingness to submit to the Lordship of Christ. This is a lifelong work. To be born again costs nothing. To know the salvation of the soul costs everything.
One day, our bodies will be transformed, instantly, by God.

 

[Gideon300]

This question has already been answered.. #217. Remember when you said evangelicals have never answered your questions? but it turns out they actually have!!

---------------------------
"In the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, we are looking at man redeemed and saved, and man condemned and lost. A casual reading seems to suggest that salvation is the result of good works. The “sheep” acted charitably, giving food, drink, and clothing to the needy. The “goats” showed no charity. This seems to result in salvation for the sheep and damnation for the goats.

However, Scripture does not contradict itself, and the Bible clearly and repeatedly teaches that salvation is by faith through the grace of God and not by our good works (see John 1:12; Acts 15:11; Romans 3:22-24; Romans 4:4-8; Romans 7:24-25; Romans 8:12; Galatians 3:6-9; and Ephesians 2:8-10). In fact, Jesus Himself makes it clear in the parable that the salvation of the “sheep” is not based on their works—their inheritance was theirs “since the creation of the world” (Matthew 25:34), long before they could ever do any good works!


The good works mentioned in the parable are not the cause of salvation but the effect of salvation. As Christians we become like Christ (see Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 3:18; and Colossians 2:6-7). Galatians 5:22 tells us that the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control. Good works in a Christian’s life are the direct overflow of these traits, and are only acceptable to God because of the relationship that exists between servant and Master, the saved and their Savior, the sheep and their Shepherd (see Ephesians 2:10).

The core message of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats is that God’s people will love others. Good works will result from our relationship to the Shepherd. Followers of Christ will treat others with kindness, serving them as if they were serving Christ Himself. The unregenerate live in the opposite manner. While “goats” can indeed perform acts of kindness and charity, their hearts are not right with God, and their actions are not for the right purpose – to honor and worship God. -https://www.gotquestions.org/parable-sheep-goats.html "
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The view you hold is actually very sad, because you diminish the work of Christ.




Hopefully now you will see that you are contradicting scriputure.

There is a deep down, almost hidden desire to contribute something to salvation. Blessed is the man who realises that he is hopeless and helpless apart from Christ. "Lord, didn't we....." God does not recognise the works of self, no matter how much they impress us. You have seen this. Others come to that place at some time. Some never do, and that is a tragedy for them. Their lives are wasted. And yes, some are not saved because they have established their own righteousness, which God rejects.

 

[Evmur]

No that is a fudge, that is dodging what is obvious from the scripture, a feeble attempt to explain away the glaring contradiction between the bible position and the Evangelical doctrine.

We will not figure at all in this judgement, we are passed from judgement to life. The resurrection of the just is PROOF that we will not be judged.

Those righteous sheep cannot possibly be the church. It is a contradiction of scripture.

By the way I do not disrespect those theologians, I admire them but in this matter disagree with them.

Why else would they have written it? except they have come upon scriptures which seem to and very truth do contradict their doctrine. I can see the wrinkle form on their brow. So they try to work their way around it.

I am taking the scripture as it stands and instead of trying to explain it away I am making it fit the other scriptures which it does ... but only if the sheeps are not the church.

 

[Evmur]

There is a deep down, almost hidden desire to contribute something to salvation. Blessed is the man who realises that he is hopeless and helpless apart from Christ. "Lord, didn't we....." God does not recognise the works of self, no matter how much they impress us. You have seen this. Others come to that place at some time. Some never do, and that is a tragedy for them. Their lives are wasted. And yes, some are not saved because they have established their own righteousness, which God rejects.

very well but Paul says they do by nature what the law requires and show that the law is written upon their hearts [by whom? so still is by grace through Christ] their consciences will accuse them or excuse them on the day that God judges the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to Paul's gospel.

 

[Funkus]

how come Jesus blessed the poor widow who put in her last mite into the temple treasury
he is saying, there goes a sheep. i don't feel i need to add anything else to this story to understand it or place it in context.
it's not as if the widow was conforming to the world by doing that she was living by faith. people can have faith without knowing it

 

[Rosemaryx]

how come Jesus blessed the poor widow who put in her last mite into the temple treasury
he is saying, there goes a sheep. i don't feel i need to add anything else to this story to understand it or place it in context.
it's not as if the widow was conforming to the world by doing that she was living by faith. people can have faith without knowing it

Jesus was making a point about how the Pharisees , and how they rob widows...
He was showing their hierocracy . saying " We cannot help you , we are giving the money to God "

God does not require our last pennies , to go home and starve to death like the poor widow , they should of helped her and not take from her , they had no compassion for the poor , they loved their money to much...
...xox...

 

[Funkus]

I do agree the Pharisee's are relevant here and would have never paid the slightest attention to the widow, and much less her offering! yet still the widow is also being praised for her faith that God will take care of her. It's a bit like the Samaritan who helps the man left for dead. This is the actions of faith that's praised by God but its not the actions on their own it's the faith that justifies them. So works can demonstrate faith even if it's not faith that the person knowingly has. So just because someone doesn't have a perfect understanding of faith doesn't mean they can't demonstrate it
If you look at the trend in the world right now... it's undermining all of that. Acts are only considered good if they are done with the correct understanding but even better is 'virtue signalling' where the acts are not done at all. I think the enemy is inverting everything and a simple scripture like the widows mite is the antidote that undoes their hypocrisy

 

[Rosemaryx]

I do agree the Pharisee's are relevant here and would have never paid the slightest attention to the widow, and much less her offering! yet still the widow is also being praised for her faith that God will take care of her. It's a bit like the Samaritan who helps the man left for dead. This is the actions of faith that's praised by God but its not the actions on their own it's the faith that justifies them. So works can demonstrate faith even if it's not faith that the person knowingly has. So just because someone doesn't have a perfect understanding of faith doesn't mean they can't demonstrate it
If you look at the trend in the world right now... it's undermining all of that. Acts are only considered good if they are done with the correct understanding but even better is 'virtue signalling' where the acts are not done at all. I think the enemy is inverting everything and a simple scripture like the widows mite is the antidote that undoes their hypocrisy

Jesus heart was more sad knowing that the widow was trying to earn her way into heaven , by doing works , just like many do today...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There you go again pre judging the Great White Throne, it preposterous.

I agree we are judged at the Bema seat. We have already been raised in the resurrection of the just

But this resurrection is called the resurrection of THE QUICK and the dead, those whose names are written in the book of life and those whose names are not written in the book of life. Quick here means living.

It is preposterous for you to pre judge them.

I judge by what the word says my friend

Rev 20:
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

1. Death and Hades were delivered to Christ to be judged, each according to his work
2. Death and Hades (the same people) were cast into the lake of fire.

If all of death and Hades are delivered for judgment, and all of death and hades are cast into the lake of fire.

Then I was correct in what I said. And NO one who is delivered to Christ here will survive this judgment, they will ALL suffer the second death.

 

[Magenta]

All this adds up to the saying of Isaiah "God will judge with equity"

That is with perfect fairness, if God [holy as He is] cannot overlook sin, neither can He overlook good deeds as Jesus said.

"if anyone gives so much as a cup of water to one of these little ones because they believe in Me, they shall not lose their reward"

That makes for a massively wider mercy than is generally taught in Evangelicalism.

Hello Evmur I wonder what you are intending to impart here, and so must walk this back a bit to ask: what reward? Do you think Jesus is saying that giving a cup of water to someone equals attaining to life ever after if and/or when that same giver has not surrendered their life to Jesus as Lord and savior, believing in their heart and confessing such with their mouth? Many who refuse to lay down their pride and submit to Him believe that being a "good person" should be enough to allow them entry into His house.

 

[Gardenias]

Good question/s Gardenias.

Although private bible study is good, private interpretation can be a dangerous thing.

I think we all wish we could just all agree on everything, but what we usually mean by that is, I wish everyone would agree with me!


I have a question for you and this may help answer some of your questions. You say this:

""I am just an old fashioned believer that follows the Spirit,and allows him to teach me the doctrines of God.""

But you have already told us you only agree with about 5% of BDF users. I will ask you your own question here :""Where is the divide in the word for all these different interpretations and beliefs?"" where do you divide with 95% of BDF'ers?

So here is my question. What Doctrines of God has the Holy Spirit taught you that are correct over against the 95% you don't agree with?

How do you know in fact that you are correct?

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It's not an easy question to answer.. why so many different views.. yet at the same time all Christians should agree on the fundamentals. We also have to remember that the truth does indeed divide.

Thank you for your response.

The foundation of belief that Jesus as God became flesh.First to have a better understanding of the sin temptation to man( Satan's tempting in 40 days,all of which we don't know). Second so that he could fulfil outside of the law the prophecies concerning a perfect way of salvation for ALL humankind.( Mary was a virgin found to be with child) punishment was to be rendered by the law.
He being obedient to the Father committed himself to death and the cross again fulfilling the shadow type of the serpent Moses lifted up.
By his death,burial and resurrection we then have the perfect ( Jesus was sinless) way to be in relationship with the Father.
We see in many scriptures the Godhead from Gen. to Rev. .On his baptism the Spirit lighted on him( the son) in the form of a dove. The voice of the Father said " this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased.
Salvation is a free gift from God,it cost us nothing and God much.
In hearing the gospel message we then have to believe in Jesus' purpose for leaving heaven,coming to earth because greater love hath no man than to lay down his life for another.
It is given freely and must be accepted freely.( God does NOT force man to believe but has given us a measure of faith to believe) We were created to WORSHIP.
We then must live in the gift as the Father and Son have left us commandments to follow . If we return to sin and don't repent and turn back to God then we are lost. God alone judges where the seed falls,claiming ppl were never saved to begin with if they fall back is foolish.
Upon receiving salvation a person must saturate themselves in the word. Jesus left the comforter or Holy Spirit to GUIDE us into all truths. His word is truth and through prayer he opens our eyes to the ways we need to walk.
The foundation becomes stronger as we build upon it,one revelation,one victory at a time .
God knows we are all different in our reception of his word and is a good SHEPHERD feeding us what we need when we need it.
A changed heart and mind leads us to follow him in his purpose to share the word,help the poor,orphans and widows,be kind and charitable.
The OT is an historical account of God from the beginning. It is filled with prophecies,words of comfort and encouragement.
Grace is unmerited favor from God,it too cannot be bought,sold nor earned.
Upon repentance we find grace in God's eyes because he sees his son's blood covering.
The word is divided into OT,NT verses and chapters but it does NOT divide believers.What does divide believers is when man SAYS God MEANS this!
Heaven eternal and hell eternal are as real as God is,his word is truth and backs up his truths.
If man we're totally depraved then God would be useless in redemption. He wants .NONE to perish and ALL to be saved.
.

Will have to continue later,sure there is enough here to bring on the attacks🤣

 

[phil36]

What does divide believers is when man SAYS God MEANS this!

If we return to sin and don't repent and turn back to God then we are lost. God alone judges where the seed falls,claiming ppl were never saved to begin with if they fall back is foolish.

So are you saying God said the above?

or did God say this:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

?

 

[Mindwrencher]

Demons did not trust in Christ

James argument is that if you believe there is one god you do well. Even demons believe this fact.

A person who has a dead faith had no trust in Christ. thats why they never do anything christ asks. They are hearers maybe but as james said, they are not doers.

You say they did not trust in Jesus, meaning they did not rely on Him for salvation. I say they refused to obey or submit to His authority. We both say it differently, but we actually agree. But regardless of our agreement, the word for belief is pistis, meaning trust. Even with that definition of trust it simply means that demons trust Jesus to be fully capable of accomplishing the will of “God”, because Jesus is God, but being diametrically opposed to Him they will not yield to His authority…yet. As Paul said “Every knee will bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord!” So does that mean demons will also bow? Do demons even have a knee to bow with? Dunno!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You say they did not trust in Jesus, meaning they did not rely on Him for salvation. I say they refused to obey or submit to His authority. We both say it differently, but we actually agree. But regardless of our agreement, the word for belief is pistis, meaning trust. Even with that definition of trust it simply means that demons trust Jesus to be fully capable of accomplishing the will of “God”, because Jesus is God, but being diametrically opposed to Him they will not yield to His authority…yet. As Paul said “Every knee will bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord!” So does that mean demons will also bow? Do demons even have a knee to bow with? Dunno!

Once again I think you miss the point

James said you believe there is one god. Demons trust that their is one god only. Thats a start. But it take more than this belief to be saved. All jews believed there was one God.. But they rejected Christ.

 

[Mindwrencher]

They have total faith in Him would this be the same total faith Christians have but we don't resist in anger?

No, not like christians, because the demons are diametrically opposed to Jesus. Whenever they encountered Him while He was with the apostles they refused to submit and plead forgiveness. Instead they would say things like “What have we to do with Thee” or some similar remark. The word for belief in Greek is pistis. For an expl. see: https://thelogosofagape.wordpress.c...nd-pisteuo-a-greek-word-study/comment-page-1/

 

[Mindwrencher]

Once again I think you miss the point

James said you believe there is one god. Demons trust that their is one god only. Thats a start. But it take more than this belief to be saved. All jews believed there was one God.. But they rejected Christ.

I’m actually agreeing with you, but you insist on differentiating on the meaning of pistis, that it means something different for humans than it does for demons. See: https://thelogosofagape.wordpress.c...nd-pisteuo-a-greek-word-study/comment-page-1/.

 

[Mindwrencher]

There are three legs upon which OSAS stands or falls. Do these verses mean what they supposedly mean, or have they been misunderstood and misapplied? When we examine them next to other scriptures that clearly contradict them will they hold up? Let's see.

First, 1 John 2:19—"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

The OSAS interpretation of this verse says that those who "went out" were never in Christ to begin with; they were never saved. However, I suggest there's another meaning that conforms very well with other scriptures. This view says that those who "went out" were indeed saved and in Christ at one point, but were simply not as committed as the others. It's in this sense that they were not "of us." These are those spoken of in the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:5-6): "Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away." It sprang up, it had life to start with; but it "withered away."

Jesus' explanation of this passage is found in Matthew 13:20-21—"As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away."

Second is 1 John 3:6—"No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."

This seems pretty cut and dried: if someone turns away back into sin they never knew Him. But we have to understand this in light of other scriptures that contradict it. Those who "never knew Him," never had a proper understanding of Him. This corresponds to the first group in the parable of the sower: "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart." The seed was "sown in his heart," but was snatched away because of this person's lack of understanding.

Third is John 10:28—"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." I agree with this verse: no one can indeed snatch them out of His hand. However, the person himself can walk away. For this reason I prefer the phrase "forfeit salvation" to "lose salvation."

Now let's look at some scriptures that plainly talk about walking away and falling away. I'm not going to use Hebrews because Hebrews is fiercely objected to by those who advocate OSAS, even though is has many relevant warnings about falling away. But Hebrews isn't necessary—there are plenty of others.

2 Peter 2:20-21—"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them."

This passage clearly illustrates a person who was once in Christ but who turned their back on Him. This shows a conscious action on the part of the one turning back. These verses correspond with Luke 9:26: "Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Matthew 24:10—"And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another."

1 Timothy 4:1—"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons."

Matthew 24:13—"But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

Why say that those who endure to the end will be saved? If one cannot forfeit their salvation, why didn't He say "But all who have prayed the sinners prayer will be saved?"

Luke 9:26—"Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Already mentioned, Luke 9:26 is a clear warning from the Lord about falling away.

I believe that christians will sin. 1 Jn 2. “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
I do not believe in “russian-roulette” salvation: Because I sinned I am now doomed to Hell. (1 Jn 2 above)
I do not believe one sin has more “affect” than any other one sin: Murder affects us just like stealing affects us. But there is a definite difference in the severity of sins: Murdering someone is way worse than stealing from someone.
I believe we are secure in our salvation, despite our doctrinal differences: Jn 6. “37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”(KJV) “ 37 Everything that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I certainly will not cast out.”(NASB). Col 1 “. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.” “Things” in heaven have also been reconciled to God, that’s how secure salvation is for believers.

 

[Gardenias]

So are you saying God said the above?

or did God say this:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

?

1John2:18/19 Little children,( why did John call them children? Were they not strong enough for the meat?) it is the last time:and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come,even now are there MANY ANTICHRIST; whereby we know that it is the last time.They ( decievers apostates,backsliders,antichrist) went out from us, but they were NOT of us; for if they had been of us( true believers,faithful, true) they would NO DOUBT HAVE CONTINUED WITH US; BUT THEY( antichrist decievers apostates,backsliders) went out that they might be made MANIFEST ( REVEALED) that they were not all of us.

People tasted of the believers life found it was good but were unable to hold true to it's teachings.
Whether antichrist came to the fold,they came with the purpose of destroying the faithful. Others came and found peace but bc of some seed of doubt, temptation or persecutions could not continue to hold to faith forsaking Christ.
Still others came went and their life was manifest of Christ to be unholy.

The Spirit will separate from the flock those that are not true.

 

[Mindwrencher]

I’m actually agreeing with you, but you insist on differentiating on the meaning of pistis, that it means something different for humans than it does for demons. See: https://thelogosofagape.wordpress.c...nd-pisteuo-a-greek-word-study/comment-page-1/.

Let me be explicit. You believe in Satan, right? You believe Satan is the great deceiver, right? You “know” these things and do not doubt them. But you would never submit to Satan because you are a christian, right? That word “believe” means the same to demons. They “believe” Jesus. They know He will accomplish His intentions and purposes, but they will never follow, or submit, to His authority. Therefore we must understand that though the word pistis is defined as belief or faith, a demon would never “submit” to what he fully knows concerning God; not because he actually does not believe or even have faith, but because he is diametrically opposed to God and works against Him and His will.
THAT…is all I am trying to say. Though a demon has faith in God’s omnipotence, omniscience, etc, he will never submit and yield to God’s authority.
It is God who credits faith as righteousness, not because Abraham believed “in” Him, but because Abraham believed God…Abraham believed what God said, and submitted to God’s authority. Rom 4. “3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Notice Paul does not say Abraham believed “in” God, but rather that Abraham believed God…what God said. Because Paul is making us aware that Abraham’s faith was in what God promised, and not just that there was a God. Abraham was conversing with God, so he “knew” God existed. It was when he believed what God said, and submitted to Him, that his faith was credited as righteousness.