Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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All your scripture quotes on this matter can be unpicked.
For eg Revelations 20.21 this is the Great White throne Judgement and corresponds with the sheeps and goats. But it is SECOND resurrection. We belong to the FIRST resurrection "blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.
We have already been raised, raptured [so shall we ever be with the Lord] we will have reigned with Him during a thousand years, passed over from judgement to life. God will bring us with Him when He comes to judge. There is no way that those being judged for their deeds are the church. Nor can the righteous sheep be the church.
I believe in THE WIDER MERCY.
For eg Revelations 20.21 this is the Great White throne Judgement and corresponds with the sheeps and goats. But it is SECOND resurrection. We belong to the FIRST resurrection "blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.
We have already been raised, raptured [so shall we ever be with the Lord] we will have reigned with Him during a thousand years, passed over from judgement to life. God will bring us with Him when He comes to judge. There is no way that those being judged for their deeds are the church. Nor can the righteous sheep be the church.
I believe in THE WIDER MERCY.
He did use another word, endure. The one who endures to the end will be saved.
Is it saved from hell? Eternal life salvation?
Or is it being saved from trials and troubles? Deliverance from troubles but not eternal deliverance?
Also in saying.. God won't leave me, but I can leave God..
How does that work logically?
Because if God won't leave me... then when I fail in my walk .. He will stay with me.
The Holy Spirit goes into someone's soul at salvation.
How do you leave something inside you?
Its like being born into a biological family.. that biological bond cant be broken except by death.. but when someone is born again into Gods family it's an even stronger bond.
The main thing is.. in scripture there is two kinds of salvation.
One is being saved by Jesus eternally from hell.
The other is daily deliverance or being saved from trials and persecution.
The context determines which.
I agree very much that we have this problem today: and it is a BIG problem today. There are many people who join a church without ever being born again - and then they have a mediocre, dull life, and then of course soon turn and leave the church, having never been born again and finding a relationship at all.
Where I differ with your interpretation is quite simple: you say this text says that all people of all time who leave a church were never born again. I do not see that stated in the text at all.
Where I differ with your interpretation is quite simple: you say this text says that all people of all time who leave a church were never born again. I do not see that stated in the text at all.
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Paul says in Ephesians 2:8,9 that salvation is by grace through faith, and is not of works. A true faith will produce works, of differing amounts, but if there are no works then there is no faith. And nowhere in Scripture is salvation said to be by faith alone.
While I do not agree with those that teach a "salvation by faith alone" gospel, I would not say it is a "different" gospel or a demonic one. Most times those holding to this doctrine have a solid basis in believing in Jesus Christ for salvation: that is the core of the gospel (good news). But I do concur that this doctrine is in error and is dangerous in that it can lead to mediocrity, lukewarmness, and a constant struggle with assurance of salvation.
While I do not agree with those that teach a "salvation by faith alone" gospel, I would not say it is a "different" gospel or a demonic one. Most times those holding to this doctrine have a solid basis in believing in Jesus Christ for salvation: that is the core of the gospel (good news). But I do concur that this doctrine is in error and is dangerous in that it can lead to mediocrity, lukewarmness, and a constant struggle with assurance of salvation.
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Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Why is this used as a proof text for people losing salvation?
Shouldn't it say WHEN they shall fall away if it were proof of it happening?
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Why is this used as a proof text for people losing salvation?
Shouldn't it say WHEN they shall fall away if it were proof of it happening?
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@eternally-gratefull
@Chester
Evening gentlemen.
I hope all is well with you.
Are we talking about
1 John 2:18-19
Deceptions of the Last Hour
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
We know it's a passage used to state that those who left were never saved on one side and on the other side they were saved but rejected lost faith.
So they were saved and no longer are saved.
One side of the coin they were never saved so OSAS (I don't like this phrase but will use it) will use this and the other is that they were saved but walked away, therefore debunks OSAS.
Here is my take on this.
The passage talks about antichrists who left the church but they were not of us because if they were they would never have left.
For me the crucial point is "Antichrists"
Who was John addressing here?
The gnostics?
I would say yes.
1 John 2:22-23
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
Therefore for me they were not saved to start with.
As a result the passages cannot be used to debunk OSAS.
If they were saved to start with then surely John would have said so.
"They were saved but walked away and rejected Jesus"
@Chester
Evening gentlemen.
I hope all is well with you.
Are we talking about
1 John 2:18-19
Deceptions of the Last Hour
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
We know it's a passage used to state that those who left were never saved on one side and on the other side they were saved but rejected lost faith.
So they were saved and no longer are saved.
One side of the coin they were never saved so OSAS (I don't like this phrase but will use it) will use this and the other is that they were saved but walked away, therefore debunks OSAS.
Here is my take on this.
The passage talks about antichrists who left the church but they were not of us because if they were they would never have left.
For me the crucial point is "Antichrists"
Who was John addressing here?
The gnostics?
I would say yes.
1 John 2:22-23
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
Therefore for me they were not saved to start with.
As a result the passages cannot be used to debunk OSAS.
If they were saved to start with then surely John would have said so.
"They were saved but walked away and rejected Jesus"
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Interesting
If you don't mind I just want add v10
Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
We are saved by faith alone nothing more and nothing less.
But do we need to consider this?
Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Can a believer who has suffered severe trauma suddenly produce works?
I would say no but as believer then God can work good in it and will conform them to the image of Jesus.
Healing.
Then they can do the good works prepared for them.
These good works are as a result of healing.
One who was sexually abused and God has healed them then will produce good works by walking those who were as well.
Just like me.
If you don't mind I just want add v10
Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
We are saved by faith alone nothing more and nothing less.
But do we need to consider this?
Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Can a believer who has suffered severe trauma suddenly produce works?
I would say no but as believer then God can work good in it and will conform them to the image of Jesus.
Healing.
Then they can do the good works prepared for them.
These good works are as a result of healing.
One who was sexually abused and God has healed them then will produce good works by walking those who were as well.
Just like me.
Maybe I am too simple but I just very baffled and confused here. You quote Eph. 2:8-10 that says we are saved "by grace through faith," and then you turn around and say "We are saved by faith alone nothing more and nothing less." ????? The text mentions grace and faith and then you insist that it is faith only and thus no grace at all! And if it is "faith and nothing more and nothing less" it also leaves out the cross and the blood and the resurrection . . .?
Now I suppose you will say you do not mean it that way at all - and I can accept that - but then why do you use such language when you don't mean what you say??
I like to say it something like this: We are saved by grace through faith, not by works, and so God is able to do His works through us.
Now I suppose you will say you do not mean it that way at all - and I can accept that - but then why do you use such language when you don't mean what you say??
I like to say it something like this: We are saved by grace through faith, not by works, and so God is able to do His works through us.
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E
I just take the word for what it says
ANYONE at all times, who walked with the church, then left. And now deny Christ. (A non believer) We’re never of us (saved)
Not everyone who leaves a local church Denys christ, I left for 5 years. I never denied Christ. So that passage was not talking to me or any other prodigal child who left the church for whatever reason. EXCEPT they now deny christ. (A non believer)
ANYONE at all times, who walked with the church, then left. And now deny Christ. (A non believer) We’re never of us (saved)
Not everyone who leaves a local church Denys christ, I left for 5 years. I never denied Christ. So that passage was not talking to me or any other prodigal child who left the church for whatever reason. EXCEPT they now deny christ. (A non believer)
This is a classic example. What will it take for you to understand what "unfit for the kingdom of God means?"
If I said you are unfit for military service, what would that mean? It means your out, we can't use you, go away. Now, if a person repents and changes his or her ways, then they might be able to become fit for service, as we saw with Mark in the book of Acts. But what this verse shows is that a person can look back, become unfit to the point that the Lord has no use for them.
If I said you are unfit for military service, what would that mean? It means your out, we can't use you, go away. Now, if a person repents and changes his or her ways, then they might be able to become fit for service, as we saw with Mark in the book of Acts. But what this verse shows is that a person can look back, become unfit to the point that the Lord has no use for them.
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