And yet, he was chosen, elected. You can’t have it both ways. That’s the error of Calvinism.
Doctrine of Unconditional Election
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And yet, he was chosen, elected. You can’t have it both ways. That’s the error of Calvinism.
He was chosen, just not for salvation. People are chosen either for Salvation or damnation..
So what now, did he choose him for service? He may have been the treasurer but lost. Doesn't this entail being chosen for service then?
John146 said:
Elect, chosen for service....never for salvation.
Are you able to?
The way to convince is with evidence. Please share yours.
Elect, chosen for service....never for salvation.
I've already requested (pleaded, begged) anyone to share any verse that clearly teaches that election is to salvation.
Are you able to?
The way to convince is with evidence. Please share yours.
Please prove your claim. I can show you every verse that includes the purpose of election mentions service.
Where is the evidence for your claim that election is to salvation?
My experience with you has been, when you are shown scripture, you cant receive it. Only God can prove truth to a person.
Yes. There is both a negative and positive connotation. Saved from punishment for sin, saved to perfect righteousness and holiness.
Rom 4:25
He was delivered over to death for our trespasses and was raised to life for our justification.
Pardon me? This, dear friend is indeed Salvation. It cannot possibly be anything else.
***that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love***
Eph 1:4-12
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, ***that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love***, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
Disagree. Judas chose himself for damnation. Do people today hear the gospel message? Yes they do.
Do people today CHOOSE to reject the free gift of salvation? Yes they do.
The fact is that just like back then, people today "will not have this Man to reign over us".....for all kinds of different reasons. Just as Judas had his reasons...
That is not what scripture teaches. Ephesians 2:1- "As for you, you were DEAD in your transgressions and sins" Dead is dead, it doesn't mean you're taking your last breath, about to die, it means dead. A dead person can't repent. God passes over them, choosing to leave them in their sin. If somebody is saved, there is nothing they did to make the choice. And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28). And we know that they didn't love Him first. 1 John 4:19-We love because He first loved us.
-God predestined before the beginning of time who he would save, before they had done anything good or bad. While we were still his enemies, He died for our sins.
Romans 9 teaches firmly against what you're espousing here
from BibleGateWay
10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:
“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”[i]
Notice verse 22. Not to mention Ephesians 2. A person dead in their transgressions and sins can't make a decision to leave their sin
God's plan and prerogative.
Rom 11:32
For God has bound up all in disobedience, that He may show mercy to all.
The scripture teaches BOTH: That God is the One Who elects and that fallen people CHOOSE to reject.
To attempt to rationalize the supposed paradox is futile. We only need to put our faith, trust and hope in a merciful, Holy, and just Creator. And stop polarizing the issue.
Disagree. THERE IS NO REASON GIVEN IN SCRIPTURE for God's Sovereign choice of one OR (NOT OVER) another. It simply states that He loves us, desires to save men and is merciful. Let God be God and give Him the Glory.
Impugning God's choice is an horrific blasphemy IMO. We are not the judge of God....he is OUR Judge.
Exodus 33:19
“I will cause all My goodness to pass before you,” the LORD replied, “and I will proclaim My name—the LORD—in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
GOD IS SOVERIGN. He makes the decisions. Period.
Look man, we are elected to certain, eventual inevitable GLORIFICATION. Was Judas glorified?