Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[Funkus]

i think the whole idea of election is expressing being sensitive to salvation and what it confers. it's not a religious election it's a spiritual one which means in theory it's not absolute but that's only in theory, in reality almost anyone would seek to be part of it and remain in it which might be why they were chosen in the first place.

 

[brightfame52]

Grandpa said:
Are there any that are elected for Salvation that are NOT elected for service?

If no, then election covers both, salvation and service.

I invite you to prove me wrong by quoting just one verse that SAYS that God elects people unconditionally to salvation.

Should be a simple and easy challenge if you are right.

But an impossible challenge if you are wrong.

Everyone can see its a straw man, I proved it !

 

[cv5]

2Th 2:13 - But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

 

[FreeGrace2]

Everyone can see its a straw man, I proved it !

Just an empty claim. I proved that it is for service, as 1 Cor 1:27,28 and Eph 1:4 clearly states.

If you really did have such a verse, I'm sure you would have quoted it to me. You're quick on claims but very slow on evidence.

Quit making claims without evidence.

 

[FreeGrace2]

2Th 2:13 - But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

Good verse. But what does it say (mean)?

First, the word for "chose" isn't the same Greek word translated "elect". This word is "haireomai", while the word for "elect" is "eklegomai".

An "election" is formal, while choosing one's sox in the morning isn't. That's the difference.

Paul was chosen to preach the gospel to Gentiles. Acts 9:15.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way and know that this verse isn't about election at all, what was it that God actually "chose" here?

This verse teaches the method of salvation, which is what God chose for man's salvation. iow, salvation is "through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

The Greek word 'kai' (and) has a fairly wide semantic range. Among them includes "even". Which works here. So salvation isn't some kind of "two-step" process.

Sanctification by the Spirit refers to what the Spirit does when a person believes, as seen in Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

So, "sanctification by the Spirit is the sealing ministry of the Spirit, whereby He "uncludes in Christ" those who have heard and believe the gospel, which marks the believer as God's possession.

 

[Grandpa]

interesting point. So, if I am elected was I to be saved from something or for something? Am I saved to only miss hell or to help God save others from going to hell? And before may ask how are you helping God save people? God chose the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.” 1cor 1:21

Both. Saved from and Saved for.

Saved from wrath and condemnation.

Saved for good works.

 

[Grandpa]

Grandpa said:
Are there any that are elected for Salvation that are NOT elected for service?

If no, then election covers both, salvation and service.

I invite you to prove me wrong by quoting just one verse that SAYS that God elects people unconditionally to salvation.

Should be a simple and easy challenge if you are right.

But an impossible challenge if you are wrong.

Ephesians 1:3-8
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;


Well that was really easy. Any other "challenges"?

 

[John146]

Ephesians 1:3-8
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;


Well that was really easy. Any other "challenges"?

Where's the word elect, or elected? Do you know why the word elect is not here? Service is not the issue, but spiritual blessings in the heavenly places. That's the context of the passage. These spiritual blessings would be found in Christ. This decision was chosen before the foundation of the world.

 

[Grandpa]

Where's the word elect, or elected?

Chosen & Predestinated = Elected

 

[John146]

Chosen & Predestinated = Elected

According to Calvin and the RCC...

 

[brightfame52]

Where's the word elect, or elected? Do you know why the word elect is not here? Service is not the issue, but spiritual blessings in the heavenly places. That's the context of the passage. These spiritual blessings would be found in Christ. This decision was chosen before the foundation of the world.

Chosen and elect are the same friend. They are used interchangeably by the Lord Himself Mk 13:20


And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

 

[brightfame52]

fr2

First, the word for "chose" isn't the same Greek word translated "elect". This word is "haireomai", while the word for "elect" is "eklegomai".

More strawman, the words mean practically the same, and Paul called them elect in his first letter 1 Thess 1:4

knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

He even calls them beloved in the same regard 2 Thess 2:13

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

 

[John146]

Chosen and elect are the same friend. They are used interchangeably by the Lord Himself Mk 13:20


And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Elect, chosen for service....never for salvation.

 

[John146]

Chosen and elect are the same friend. They are used interchangeably by the Lord Himself Mk 13:20


And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

The Lord chose Judas. Was Judas saved?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ephesians 1:3-8
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;


Well that was really easy. Any other "challenges"?

Why do you assume you proved me wrong with these verses? What, specifically "proved me wrong".

In order to prove me wrong about election, you need to have a verse that says God chooses who will believe, which is at the core of Calvinism's doctrine of unconditional election.

Every verse that includes a purpose of God's election involves service. every.single.one.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Chosen & Predestinated = Elected

Poor math.

The word "chosen" can be translated as "elect" so adding "predestinated" doesn't work.

In fact, there are no verses where predestinated and elected are found together.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"First, the word for "chose" isn't the same Greek word translated "elect". This word is "haireomai", while the word for "elect" is "eklegomai"."

fr2
More strawman, the words mean practically the same, and Paul called them elect in his first letter 1 Thess 1:4

knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

Do you not have an interlinear? The word in 1 Thess 1:4 is ekloge, from which the verb "eklegomai" comes from. So your point is pointless. They are different words.

Would you call a national election a "pickings" or "choosing"? Rational people would not.

He even calls them beloved in the same regard 2 Thess 2:13

Matters not. I showed what Paul's point was. If you disagree, then show me specifically where I'm wrong.

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Again, Paul is describing the method that God chose/picked for man's salvation.

Being set apart by the Spirit and or even belief in the truth.

 

[brightfame52]

Elect, chosen for service....never for salvation.

Thats error, plain as day.

 

[brightfame52]

The Lord chose Judas. Was Judas saved?

He didnt choose him for Salvation.

 

[brightfame52]

I said:
"First, the word for "chose" isn't the same Greek word translated "elect". This word is "haireomai", while the word for "elect" is "eklegomai"."

Do you not have an interlinear? The word in 1 Thess 1:4 is ekloge, from which the verb "eklegomai" comes from. So your point is pointless. They are different words.

Would you call a national election a "pickings" or "choosing"? Rational people would not.


Matters not. I showed what Paul's point was. If you disagree, then show me specifically where I'm wrong.


Again, Paul is describing the method that God chose/picked for man's salvation.

Being set apart by the Spirit and or even belief in the truth.

Lol, strawman