1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 Vs. Matthew 24:29-31

[Absolutely]

No, not my answer - but the word of the Lord.

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18

...and yet in your doctrine, you have the dead in christ raised after the living gathered in rev 14.

 

[Absolutely]

1. the Church are waiting for the Lords Coming
2. by the word of the Lord (no argument)
3. The Lord Jesus is bringing with Him the Saints who have died
4. FIRST the Resurrection of the dead in Christ
5. AFTER that, the Rapture of remaining (alive) believers
6. Forever to be with the Lord

you do not even realize that pretrib rapture teaches that same thing

Classic

Facepalm

 

[Evmur]

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
=====================================================

Matthew 24:29-31

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

==========================================================================================

Hello all! I decided to post this because I keep seeing people posting these two events as being the same and taking place at the same time, which they are not.

First of all, in comparing the two scriptures, at the time of the resurrection and the living being changed and caught up as described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, angels DO NOT gather those being resurrected, nor the living being changed and caught up. The scripture states that we are raised in power, not gathered by angels. The Lord with a voice like a trumpet, will resurrect and call up the dead in Christ and then immediately after that the living in Christ will be transformed immortal and glorified and will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected. At this point the entire church will be gathered to meet the Lord in the air. To reiterate, no angels gather the church at this event.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 mentions that there will be a "load command, with the voice of an archangel" to announce the Lord's appearing, i.e. the Bridegrooms arrival for His bride. The mention of the voice of the loud command from the archangel is in the 'genitive, masculine, singular,' i.e. one archangel. In opposition, Matthew 24:31 has the Lord sending out many angels who will go throughout the four corners of the earth to gather the living survivors of the great tribulation saints. To be clear, Matthew 24:31 is not the gathering of the church, but the gathering of those great tribulation saints who will have survived the great tribulation period.

In addition, the "Trumpet of God" and the "last trumpet" of 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52, respectively, is not the same as the "Loud Trumpet call" referred to in Matthew 24:31 which is used to send out the angels to gather the living elect. They are different trumpets. The trumpet of God in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is to gather the dead and the living in Christ from off the earth. Where the "loud trumpet call" in Matthew 24:31 is to send the angels out to gather the living survivors of the great tribulation saints. What is not mentioned in Matthew 24:31 but is mentioned in Matthew 13, is that when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the angels first gather the weeds/wicked, then they bring the wheat/righteous into the Lord's barn.

And second of all, when we received Christ, we were credited with His righteousness and reconciled to God. As Isaiah 53 says, the punishment that brought us peace was upon Christ, meaning that God's wrath was already satisfied through Christ on behalf of every believer. Either Christ's punishment brought us peace with God or it didn't! For those who continue to have the living church gathered after God's wrath, they cannot truly believe that Jesus satisfied God's wrath. They're speaking out of both sides of their mouths.

Since believers within the church are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then the Lord's promise in John 14:1-3 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 to come back to get His church and to take us back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us, must take place prior to the on-set of God's wrath.

And thirdly, in opposition to Matthew 24:31 which states that "all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory." In opposition, nothing is mentioned of the people of the earth seeing the Lord arriving nor His gathering of the church as described in John 14:1-3, 1Thessalonians 4:15-17. In the event when the Lord comes to gather His church, it is to take them back to the Father's house. Where in opposition, Matthew 24:29-31 is the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. So, one is coming to gather His church to take them back to heaven and the other is to return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.

I would also mention after the detailed account of the church being gathered in 1 Thessalonians 4:18, Paul says "Therefore encourage one another with these words. If the church were to first go through God's wrath and then be gathered, then we could not encourage each other with those words, because we be suffering the same wrath as the wicked. It is the same thing found in John 14:1, for Jesus says "let not your hearts be troubled." If believers within the church were to go through God's wrath and gathered afterwards, then we would certainly have reason to be troubled.

* The gathering of the church takes place prior to God's wrath (John 14:1-3, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:51-53)

* The Lord's return to the earth to end the age takes place after God's wrath (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 1:7, 19:11-21)

There are not multiple comings in the clouds with power and glory, angels with trumpets and gatherings of the elect.

they are the same event.

 

[Absolutely]

Ok, that is your opinion, if it were true you would be able to show it from Scripture ALONE.


Good Morning, In case you have not seen this, i have made a open TRUTH challenge to the pre-trib fallacy.

$1,000 (US dollars) to the first person that can show the scripture(s) that clearly state: The Bride of Christ/His Elect/the Church is pre-tribulation raptured before the First Resurrection and before the Antichrist. The Bride of Christ/His Elect/the Church as a whole Body of Believers.

*** IMPORTANT - Individual believers/resurrections/raptures such as Enoch, Elijah, Lazarrus, John and the Saints from Matthew 27:51-53 (which is the fulfillment of Isaiah 26:19) = DO NOT QUALIFY.

Rules have been set forth by the Moderator = our Lord Jesus Christ

Rules Apply: ONLY Scripture: No Conjecture - No Commentaries - No personal belief statements

Rules for Disqualification: Seeking to Argue/Arguments - Adding to or taking away from God's Word - Personal Belief Statements - Conjecture

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book." Revelation 22:18-19

Proverbs 30: 5-6 "Every word of God is flawless; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.

Deuteronomy 4:1-2 Hear now, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances I am teaching you to follow, so that you may live and may enter and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you
You must not add to or subtract from what I command you, so that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I am giving you.

EXAMPLE to Follow as Your Guide: Show Proof (Scripture) that Jesus is the ONLY way we can be saved.

ANSWER(S): John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by Me.
Acts 4:11-12 This Jesus is ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’
Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

Make it a postal money order.

Pretrib is easy to defend.

Your doctrine is challenged easily and destroyed

 

[DavidTree]

I and others have laid it out.
Hands down. Solid bible.
There is no postrib rapture or ANY verse even pointing to it.

Please bring forth the Scripture(s) - we are all waiting....

You mentioned Lot - Lot was delivered from wrath not tribulation.

Noah - delivered from wrath - not tribulation - Noah lived during the tribulation in his lifetime

The danger of believing the pre-trib lie is this = You are on the precipice of calling the Lord Jesus a liar.

These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace.
In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.” John 16:33

strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying,
“We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” Acts 14:23

I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Rev 1:9

What makes you think you can "add to and take away " from the word of God - the Holy Scripture.

When you believe a lie you become blinded to the Truth - right in front of you.

 

[DavidTree]

Make it a postal money order.

Pretrib is easy to defend.

Your doctrine is challenged easily and destroyed

Easy Pie my Friend - Open your Bible and Open your Mind to what the Spirit says and not men.

100% you can earn the $1,000 when you bring forth the Scripture that says the His Church/ His Bride/ His Saints are pre-trib raptured.

Bring forth the Scripture that shows the Saints are Resurrected in the book of Revelation, BEFORE the Beast and his Mark.

Show the Scripture(s) that show His Church Resurrected in the Gospels BEFORE the Antichrist and Tribulation.
Show forth the Scripture(s) that declare His Church/His Bride/His Elect in the Letters of the Apostles.

 

[DavidTree]

Make it a postal money order.

Pretrib is easy to defend.

Your doctrine is challenged easily and destroyed

If it is easy why are you unable to prove it from Sripture?

Pre-Wrath is NOT Pre-Trib

and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
1 Thess 1:9

We are delivered from the wrath of God - not tribulation - we go through tribulation as our Lord Jesus said:

These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.” John 16:33

Open your eyes and heart to the Lord Jesus Christ so that he can deliver you from error and you will rejoice.
Pre-Trib is a idol before the Lord - rooted in religious pride.

Scripture cannot lie

 

[AandW]

Only someone struggling with concept identification and understanding builds a False Doctrine of [Leaving pre-Wrath] with a Verse that [Clarifies Twice] WE REMAIN till His Coming [Coming always = Second Coming]!

But I get it, it is OPPOSITE VERSE MEANING DAY!

To REMAIN till His Coming [Second Coming] means in opposite terms, Pre-Trib Rapture!

 

[DavidTree]

Only someone struggling with concept identification and understanding builds a False Doctrine of [Leaving pre-Wrath] with a Verse that [Clarifies Twice] WE REMAIN till His Coming [Coming always = Second Coming]!

But I get it, it is OPPOSITE VERSE MEANING DAY!

To REMAIN till His Coming [Second Coming] means in opposite terms, Pre-Trib Rapture!

Good Morning, no coffee yet , i just want to make sure i am reading you correctly.

You are saying: His Second Coming is not pre-trib - yes?

Now i am 'waiting on you' - thank you

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

--[...] the "24 elders" themselves saying (from their position up in Heaven, BEFORE the first Seal is opened when Jesus WILL "STAND to JUDGE")... "hast redeemed US [G2248 - hēmas] to God by thy blood out of [ek] EVERY kindred [/tribe], and tongue, and people, and nation" Rev5:9 (compare also the wording found in Rev1:5-6 re: "US");

--the fact that these are wearing "stephanous/crowns" and are sitting on "thrones" (not to mention the wording "WAS FOUND" used in 5:4) is indication that the Bema of Christ has already taken place at this point ("crowns" are awarded "IN THAT DAY," according to what Paul was given to disclose 2Tim4:8, and this does not mean at the time a believer DIES)

--what Matthew 24:4 (Mk13:5) STARTS OUT with is that which is EQUIVALENT to SEAL #1 (FOLLOWING CHRONOLOGICALLY what it is that I've put in the above two points); i.e. Matthew 24 is covering the Subject of what takes place FOLLOWING our Rapture IN THE AIR

 

[DavidTree]

--[...] the "24 elders" themselves saying (from their position up in Heaven, BEFORE the first Seal is opened when Jesus WILL "STAND to JUDGE")... "hast redeemed US [G2248 - hēmas] to God by thy blood out of [ek] EVERY kindred [/tribe], and tongue, and people, and nation" Rev5:9 (compare also the wording found in Rev1:5-6 re: "US");

--the fact that these are wearing "stephanon/crowns" and are sitting on "thrones" (not to mention the wording "WAS FOUND" used in 5:4) is indication that the Bema of Christ has already taken place at this point ("crowns" are awarded "IN THAT DAY," according to what Paul was given to disclose 2Tim4:8, and this does not mean at the time a believer DIES)

--what Matthew 24:4 (Mk13:5) STARTS OUT with is that which is EQUIVALENT to SEAL #1 (FOLLOWING what it is I've put in the above two points); i.e. Matthew 24 is covering the Subject of what takes place FOLLOWING our Rapture IN THE AIR

Mr. Twister, you just will not stop - you are addicted to worshipping an idol 'adding to and taking away' from God's word.

Adding to Scripture what it does not say = "Matthew 24 is covering the Subject of what takes place FOLLOWING our Rapture IN THE AIR"

Since you reject the Word you will be Judged by your words.........

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30

No pre-trib rapture in Matthew before chapter 24 or during chapter 24

 

[DavidTree]

--[...] the "24 elders" themselves saying (from their position up in Heaven, BEFORE the first Seal is opened when Jesus WILL "STAND to JUDGE")... "hast redeemed US [G2248 - hēmas] to God by thy blood out of [ek] EVERY kindred [/tribe], and tongue, and people, and nation" Rev5:9 (compare also the wording found in Rev1:5-6 re: "US");

--the fact that these are wearing "stephanous/crowns" and are sitting on "thrones" (not to mention the wording "WAS FOUND" used in 5:4) is indication that the Bema of Christ has already taken place at this point ("crowns" are awarded "IN THAT DAY," according to what Paul was given to disclose 2Tim4:8, and this does not mean at the time a believer DIES)

--what Matthew 24:4 (Mk13:5) STARTS OUT with is that which is EQUIVALENT to SEAL #1 (FOLLOWING CHRONOLOGICALLY what it is that I've put in the above two points); i.e. Matthew 24 is covering the Subject of what takes place FOLLOWING our Rapture IN THE AIR

And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”

Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

No Rapture until the First Resurrection which will not occur until the 5th Seal is complete just as Scripture says.

The First Resurrection occurs later in Revelation and is shown in chapter 20.

 

[DavidTree]

--[...] the "24 elders" themselves saying (from their position up in Heaven, BEFORE the first Seal is opened when Jesus WILL "STAND to JUDGE")... "hast redeemed US [G2248 - hēmas] to God by thy blood out of [ek] EVERY kindred [/tribe], and tongue, and people, and nation" Rev5:9 (compare also the wording found in Rev1:5-6 re: "US");

--the fact that these are wearing "stephanous/crowns" and are sitting on "thrones" (not to mention the wording "WAS FOUND" used in 5:4) is indication that the Bema of Christ has already taken place at this point ("crowns" are awarded "IN THAT DAY," according to what Paul was given to disclose 2Tim4:8, and this does not mean at the time a believer DIES)

--what Matthew 24:4 (Mk13:5) STARTS OUT with is that which is EQUIVALENT to SEAL #1 (FOLLOWING CHRONOLOGICALLY what it is that I've put in the above two points); i.e. Matthew 24 is covering the Subject of what takes place FOLLOWING our Rapture IN THE AIR

Believe the Truth and the Truth will set you free.

And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”

Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

No Rapture until the First Resurrection which will not occur until the 5th Seal is complete just as Scripture says.

The First Resurrection occurs later in Revelation and is shown in chapter 20:4

Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The Fifth Seal martyrs are those killed in the FIRST half of the "7 years"... More saints are killed during the second half, as well



____________

@DavidTree , let me ask you... do you believe there will be an earthly Millennial Kingdom that takes place following Jesus' return in Rev19?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No pre-trib rapture in Matthew before chapter 24 or during chapter 24

Jesus, in Matthew 24 [thru chpt 25], is not covering the Subject of our Rapture WHATSOEVER.

He is addressing the Q of His disciples in v.3 which was BASED ON what He had ALREADY SPOKEN to them about in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (and context) which has to do with "the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" when the angels will "REAP"...

...(WE / "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" are NOT the "WHEAT" harvest)...

...and Matt13 does NOT cover the Subject of our Rapture (EITHER!)






This is a matter of CHRONLOGY... which you are not understanding.

But everyone can learn...

 

[DavidTree]

Jesus, in Matthew 24 [thru chpt 25], is not covering the Subject of our Rapture WHATSOEVER.

He is addressing the Q of His disciples in v.3 which was BASED ON what He had ALREADY SPOKEN to them about in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (and context) which has to do with "the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" when the angels will "REAP"...

...(WE / "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" are NOT the "WHEAT" harvest)...

...and Matt13 does NOT cover the Subject of our Rapture (EITHER!)






This is a matter of CHRONLOGY... which you are not understanding.

But everyone can learn...

YES, the end pertains to His Second Coming and all the events that take place starting with the Resurrection.

Revelation and the Fifth Seal:
Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

And they came to Life = the First Resurrection.

Revelation 20
Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Repent before it's too late - by your words you will be judged

 

[Jackson123]

Jesus, in Matthew 24 [thru chpt 25], is not covering the Subject of our Rapture WHATSOEVER.

To me this verse sound like rapture

Matt 24
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 

[Jackson123]

YES, the end pertains to His Second Coming and all the events that take place starting with the Resurrection.

According this verse that events not start with resurrection this verse alone tell that before second cominng will be distress or great tribulation gathering the elect or rapture happen in verse 31 it is after tribulation on verse 29

Matt 24
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]

 

[rayzor]

Different Tribs 4 different people..That a 101

 

[Jackson123]

Different Tribs 4 different people..That a 101

And what are that's for what kind of peoples