1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 Vs. Matthew 24:29-31
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i am freinds with a Jewish Chabbad Rabbi here where i live. Very nice man, unlike some of the hateful religious ones in NYC and Jerusalem.
They fully believe in a dead rabbi named Scheersohn, that he is their Messiah and are waiting for him to resurrect from the grave.
Every year they gather to cry over him and for him - hundreds of thousands if not millions.
This is just one MAJOR Reason why God hid Moses body.
let that sink in a little
They fully believe in a dead rabbi named Scheersohn, that he is their Messiah and are waiting for him to resurrect from the grave.
Every year they gather to cry over him and for him - hundreds of thousands if not millions.
This is just one MAJOR Reason why God hid Moses body.
let that sink in a little
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Hey Ahwatukee,
I agree that there's overlapping...but have to disagree that everything that happens is under "God's Wrath". For instance, 5th seal (regardless of whenever we believe it happens) involves saints dying for their testimony. The Almighty then comforts them, telling them that their fellow servants must die with them, and then they'll be avenged. This couldn't possibly be God's Wrath...upon saints??
See what I mean?
Yeah, that's true. An absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. But we have pages and pages of evidence confirming that The Almighty uses trials and tribulation to prove the metal (i.e. faith) of His saints.
Well we dont see the word antichrist anywhere in the book of Revelation either but surely you believe that spirit is still present during the time and described using other words. My point is, the words "saints" and "servants" are used during the recorded events so couldn't these be describing the very same body of believers? Is it possible?
I agree that there's overlapping...but have to disagree that everything that happens is under "God's Wrath". For instance, 5th seal (regardless of whenever we believe it happens) involves saints dying for their testimony. The Almighty then comforts them, telling them that their fellow servants must die with them, and then they'll be avenged. This couldn't possibly be God's Wrath...upon saints??
See what I mean?
Yeah, that's true. An absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. But we have pages and pages of evidence confirming that The Almighty uses trials and tribulation to prove the metal (i.e. faith) of His saints.
Well we dont see the word antichrist anywhere in the book of Revelation either but surely you believe that spirit is still present during the time and described using other words. My point is, the words "saints" and "servants" are used during the recorded events so couldn't these be describing the very same body of believers? Is it possible?
Those that are seen under the altar in heaven at the opening of the 5th seal, are those who will have become saints after the church is gathered and who will have died during the first 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. The reference to them waiting until their fellow servants and brothers are to be killed in the same manner as they were, is referring to those killed during the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period, which is the great tribulation.
Fifth Seal Martyr's = Those who become believers after the church is gathered and during the first 3 1/2 years of God's wrath.
Fellow servants and brothers = The saints who die during the great tribulation which is the last 3 1/2 year period
The great tribulation saints are introduced in Revelation 7:9-17 as that multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language.
God leaves us clues throughout His word and one of them is the fact that the word ekklesia translated as church is used 19 times. In addition, within those same chapters you will not find the word 'Saints.' After the end of chapter 3, the word 'church' disappears from print. Coincidence? I think not! God is giving us some masked information here, demonstrating that there is a distinction being made between church and Saints.
The church period ends when the Lord descends to the atmosphere and gathers up the church both dead and living. Those who become believers after the gathering, though believer, are not a part of the church, which is why they are never referred to as such. They are another saved group under Christ whose faith will be tested by their very lives. Those who make it alive through the entire wrath of God, will be those who, along with the remnant of Israel, will repopulate the earth, still being in their mortal bodies.
That comparison is not relevant. Daniel calls him the little horn, Paul calls him the man of lawlessness, John calls him the antichrist and John in Revelation calls him the beast. We know who they are all referring to. The disappearance of the word church after using it 19 times and then it never being used again during the narrative of God's wrath, is relevant. What is also relevant, is the fact that after John has just written letters to the seven churches, he then sees another group which is too large to count. The fact that the elder is asking John who they are tells us that they are not the church, but another group. In addition, John doesn't know who they are.
Again, I do not post information off the cuff of my sleeve. This comes from many years of study on these end-time subjects.
Fifth Seal Martyr's = Those who become believers after the church is gathered and during the first 3 1/2 years of God's wrath.
Fellow servants and brothers = The saints who die during the great tribulation which is the last 3 1/2 year period
The great tribulation saints are introduced in Revelation 7:9-17 as that multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language.
God leaves us clues throughout His word and one of them is the fact that the word ekklesia translated as church is used 19 times. In addition, within those same chapters you will not find the word 'Saints.' After the end of chapter 3, the word 'church' disappears from print. Coincidence? I think not! God is giving us some masked information here, demonstrating that there is a distinction being made between church and Saints.
The church period ends when the Lord descends to the atmosphere and gathers up the church both dead and living. Those who become believers after the gathering, though believer, are not a part of the church, which is why they are never referred to as such. They are another saved group under Christ whose faith will be tested by their very lives. Those who make it alive through the entire wrath of God, will be those who, along with the remnant of Israel, will repopulate the earth, still being in their mortal bodies.
That comparison is not relevant. Daniel calls him the little horn, Paul calls him the man of lawlessness, John calls him the antichrist and John in Revelation calls him the beast. We know who they are all referring to. The disappearance of the word church after using it 19 times and then it never being used again during the narrative of God's wrath, is relevant. What is also relevant, is the fact that after John has just written letters to the seven churches, he then sees another group which is too large to count. The fact that the elder is asking John who they are tells us that they are not the church, but another group. In addition, John doesn't know who they are.
Again, I do not post information off the cuff of my sleeve. This comes from many years of study on these end-time subjects.
Tribulation is not God's wrath. "in the world you will have tribulation ..." tribulation is persecution.
When John saw the great multitude in heaven which no man could number he was told "these are they who have come out of great tribulation, they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb"
You'll probably agree at least that there will be a great end-time persecution.
When John saw the great multitude in heaven which no man could number he was told "these are they who have come out of great tribulation, they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb"
You'll probably agree at least that there will be a great end-time persecution.
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Hello Evmur,
I don't understand why you continue to attempt to correct me on things that I myself have always been in agreement with I and f which I also teach?
As I said before and in many posts, Jesus said that believers would have trials and tribulations as result of our faith in Him, which comes at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. However, there is a time of tribulation coming that will be God's time of tribulation, when his wrath is poured out, which will come via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues of wrath that the two witnesses bring. It is this tribulation/wrath that the church is not appointed to suffer
Yes, I am also very familiar and have posted on this many times, regarding the multitude too large to count who will come out of the great tribulation period. This group is not the church, but are those who will become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath/tribulation.
The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, will overshadow everything else that is taking place on the earth during that seven years. To be clear, in the middle of the seven years, when that man of lawlessness proclaims himself to be God, either some seal or trumpet judgment will be taking place at the same time. In fact, the 5th bowl will be poured out on the seat of the beasts kingdom, plunging it into spiritual darkness. The seals, trumpets and bowls will cover the entire period. It is not until after the pouring out of the 7th bowl that Jesus will return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.
I don't understand why you continue to attempt to correct me on things that I myself have always been in agreement with I and f which I also teach?
As I said before and in many posts, Jesus said that believers would have trials and tribulations as result of our faith in Him, which comes at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. However, there is a time of tribulation coming that will be God's time of tribulation, when his wrath is poured out, which will come via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues of wrath that the two witnesses bring. It is this tribulation/wrath that the church is not appointed to suffer
Yes, I am also very familiar and have posted on this many times, regarding the multitude too large to count who will come out of the great tribulation period. This group is not the church, but are those who will become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath/tribulation.
The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, will overshadow everything else that is taking place on the earth during that seven years. To be clear, in the middle of the seven years, when that man of lawlessness proclaims himself to be God, either some seal or trumpet judgment will be taking place at the same time. In fact, the 5th bowl will be poured out on the seat of the beasts kingdom, plunging it into spiritual darkness. The seals, trumpets and bowls will cover the entire period. It is not until after the pouring out of the 7th bowl that Jesus will return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.
There is no pre-trib rapture of God's Elect in Matthew chapter 24
There is no pre-trib rapture of God's Elect in Matthew chapter 25
Anyone who tells you differently then the very words of our Lord Jesus Christ is in confusion.
God is not the author of confusion - 1 Corinthians 14:33
There is only one way to read and approach Scripture:
Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar. Proverbs 30:5-6
Protection comes from trusting what God says.
Confusion comes from what God did not say.
There is no pre-trib rapture of God's Elect in Matthew chapter 25
Anyone who tells you differently then the very words of our Lord Jesus Christ is in confusion.
God is not the author of confusion - 1 Corinthians 14:33
There is only one way to read and approach Scripture:
Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar. Proverbs 30:5-6
Protection comes from trusting what God says.
Confusion comes from what God did not say.
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CORRECT! 
Both passages speak of the time surrounding His "Second Coming to the earth" (Rev19);
NO ONE in these passages is experiencing the "SNATCH / RAPTURE / CAUGHT UP / harpazo [G726]"
Anyone who taught you these passages are in the CONTEXT of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" were sorely mistaken.
(NOWHERE in Jesus' Olivet Discourse is Jesus covering the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"--Rather, He was covering the Subject of His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom commencing upon His "RETURN" there (and what immediately precedes and LEADS UP TO that)]
Both passages speak of the time surrounding His "Second Coming to the earth" (Rev19);
NO ONE in these passages is experiencing the "SNATCH / RAPTURE / CAUGHT UP / harpazo [G726]"
Anyone who taught you these passages are in the CONTEXT of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" were sorely mistaken.
(NOWHERE in Jesus' Olivet Discourse is Jesus covering the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"--Rather, He was covering the Subject of His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom commencing upon His "RETURN" there (and what immediately precedes and LEADS UP TO that)]
CORRECT!
Both passages speak of the time surrounding His "Second Coming to the earth" (Rev19);
NO ONE in these passages is experiencing the "SNATCH / RAPTURE / CAUGHT UP / harpazo [G726]"
Anyone who taught you these passages are in the CONTEXT of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" were sorely mistaken.
(NOWHERE in Jesus' Olivet Discourse is Jesus covering the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"--Rather, He was covering the Subject of His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom commencing upon His "RETURN" there (and what immediately precedes and LEADS UP TO that)]
Both passages speak of the time surrounding His "Second Coming to the earth" (Rev19);
NO ONE in these passages is experiencing the "SNATCH / RAPTURE / CAUGHT UP / harpazo [G726]"
Anyone who taught you these passages are in the CONTEXT of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" were sorely mistaken.
(NOWHERE in Jesus' Olivet Discourse is Jesus covering the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"--Rather, He was covering the Subject of His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom commencing upon His "RETURN" there (and what immediately precedes and LEADS UP TO that)]
They say we have already been raptured.
Pastor on the radio said on Sunday, on national radio..........
^ Everything from Matthew 24:3 through chpt 25 is what takes place FOLLOWING "our Rapture" ("our Rapture" NOWHERE is the Subject Jesus is covering in His Olivet Discourse).
The only part of His Olivet Discourse that is NOT "future" to us and "our Rapture" event, is Lk21:12-24a which covers the events surrounding 70ad (now "past" history from our perspective... but "near future" from when it was spoken.
[In Matt24:4-8, Jesus STARTS OUT speaking of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" (those are EQUIVALENT TO the "SEALS" of Rev6); Paul speaks of the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period of judgments unfolding as being LIKE... the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman... not the END of all that, see... Later Paul, in 2Th2 REPEATS the SEQUENCE 3x, telling what ONE THING that must come *FIRST* before those can be present to unfold upon the earth...]
The only part of His Olivet Discourse that is NOT "future" to us and "our Rapture" event, is Lk21:12-24a which covers the events surrounding 70ad (now "past" history from our perspective... but "near future" from when it was spoken.
[In Matt24:4-8, Jesus STARTS OUT speaking of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" (those are EQUIVALENT TO the "SEALS" of Rev6); Paul speaks of the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period of judgments unfolding as being LIKE... the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman... not the END of all that, see... Later Paul, in 2Th2 REPEATS the SEQUENCE 3x, telling what ONE THING that must come *FIRST* before those can be present to unfold upon the earth...]
You said:
^ Everything from Matthew 24:3 through chpt 25 is what takes place FOLLOWING "our Rapture" ("our Rapture" NOWHERE is the Subject Jesus is covering in His Olivet Discourse).
This is a flat out lie - you are adding to Scripture what it does not say - you are doing what the serpent did to Eve in the Garden.
No where in the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, in Matthew, does our Lord say we will be pre-trib raptured.
No where is His Bride raptured in the Gospels BEFORE His Second Coming and the First Resurrection.
Repent from spreading falsehood.
But avoid irreverent, empty chatter, which will only lead to more ungodliness,
who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
2 Timothy 2:18
The Scripture cannot lie
^ Everything from Matthew 24:3 through chpt 25 is what takes place FOLLOWING "our Rapture" ("our Rapture" NOWHERE is the Subject Jesus is covering in His Olivet Discourse).
This is a flat out lie - you are adding to Scripture what it does not say - you are doing what the serpent did to Eve in the Garden.
No where in the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, in Matthew, does our Lord say we will be pre-trib raptured.
No where is His Bride raptured in the Gospels BEFORE His Second Coming and the First Resurrection.
Repent from spreading falsehood.
But avoid irreverent, empty chatter, which will only lead to more ungodliness,
who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
2 Timothy 2:18
The Scripture cannot lie
Right. Because nowhere in Matthew does Jesus cover the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" (which was disclosed and explained elsewhere, and pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence!)], aka the "[presently-betrothed] BRIDE / WIFE [SINGULAR]" [2Cor11:2 "SINGULAR"; Eph5; etc]...
...and who is NOT the "FIVE VIRGINS [PLURAL]" that He is not coming to "MARRY" but who [the "5 VirginS"] instead pertain to "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" aka the earthly MK age commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19, where THEY will still be located, per ALL of the contexts pertaining to that Subject)
...and who is NOT the "FIVE VIRGINS [PLURAL]" that He is not coming to "MARRY" but who [the "5 VirginS"] instead pertain to "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" aka the earthly MK age commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19, where THEY will still be located, per ALL of the contexts pertaining to that Subject)
Dear Mr. Twister,
In the Gospel of Matthew He speaks and covers His Return - There is no rapture BEFORE His Second Coming/His Return/the Resurrection.
The Scripture cannot lie - but you do when you 'add and take away' from God's word
We, His Body, are reaching out to you in Love - Love is not always pleasant, but it is always love from Him through us to You.
In the Gospel of Matthew He speaks and covers His Return - There is no rapture BEFORE His Second Coming/His Return/the Resurrection.
The Scripture cannot lie - but you do when you 'add and take away' from God's word
We, His Body, are reaching out to you in Love - Love is not always pleasant, but it is always love from Him through us to You.
^ @DavidTree , there is no "SNATCH / RAPTURE / CAUGHT UP / harpazo [G726]" being alluded to anywhere in the Matthew text (and NOT in the Olivet Discourse at all ANYWHERE); that simply was NOT the Subject Jesus was covering there, but of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (which was promised to ISRAEL [and who will "INVITE" the "GUESTS [PLURAL]"]).
The disciples' Q of Him in Matthew 24:3 was BASED on what He had ALREADY spoken to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 ("the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" when the angels will [in the future] "REAP"... But note, WE [the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY] are NOT the "WHEAT" harvest!)
The disciples' Q of Him in Matthew 24:3 was BASED on what He had ALREADY spoken to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 ("the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" when the angels will [in the future] "REAP"... But note, WE [the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY] are NOT the "WHEAT" harvest!)
DavidTree, do you believe Jesus (as the "Bridegroom") is coming to "MARRY" the "FIVE [wise] VIRGINS [PLURAL]" ??
Is that the picture Jesus is putting forth there??
[BTW, I agree that Jesus in His Olivet Discourse is covering His "RETURN" to the earth, for parts of Matthew 24 is DIRECTLY PARALLEL with Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom"!)... THEN the meal [G347]!! (aka, the MK age)]
Is that the picture Jesus is putting forth there??
[BTW, I agree that Jesus in His Olivet Discourse is covering His "RETURN" to the earth, for parts of Matthew 24 is DIRECTLY PARALLEL with Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom"!)... THEN the meal [G347]!! (aka, the MK age)]
i understand completely, by the Holy Spirit, the parable of the Ten Virgins.
How is it you do not understand Scripture???
Make every effort to present yourself approved to God, an unashamed workman who accurately handles the word of truth.
But avoid irreverent, empty chatter, which will only lead to more ungodliness, and the talk of such men will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have deviated from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already occurred, and they undermine the faith of some.
You make every effort to prove a falsehood, which is pre-trib rapture.
Others of us have chosen to 'present ourselves approved to God. We reject error and the idols of men.
No one is left behind - He comes for all of His Bride at the Resurrection, not for some before tribulation.
This is so CLEAR a child can see it.
i am happy and fully content being a Child of God. i am protected in His word, therefore 'i do not add or take away'.
i rejoice in the foolishness of God that is wiser then the wisdom of men.
Revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ fully agrees with 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians. Pre-trib does not - it is error.
How is it you do not understand Scripture???
Make every effort to present yourself approved to God, an unashamed workman who accurately handles the word of truth.
But avoid irreverent, empty chatter, which will only lead to more ungodliness, and the talk of such men will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have deviated from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already occurred, and they undermine the faith of some.
You make every effort to prove a falsehood, which is pre-trib rapture.
Others of us have chosen to 'present ourselves approved to God. We reject error and the idols of men.
No one is left behind - He comes for all of His Bride at the Resurrection, not for some before tribulation.
This is so CLEAR a child can see it.
i am happy and fully content being a Child of God. i am protected in His word, therefore 'i do not add or take away'.
i rejoice in the foolishness of God that is wiser then the wisdom of men.
Revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ fully agrees with 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians. Pre-trib does not - it is error.