1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 Vs. Matthew 24:29-31

[1ofthem]

Don't go looking for him in the desert or any other secret place.

There's not going to be a secret rapture. When Jesus comes back to gather his children, he's going to light up the eastern sky. There will be no secret rapture. He's coming back once and that is to end this world and do justice and judgment.

He's not leaving any of his people behind...so no need to worry about or focus on that. We do need to focus on being prepared to stand, though. The only people that will be raptured alive from this earth, are those that stand until the end.

 

[DavidTree]

you do realize the book of revelation is called the book of apocalypse and translated to Say revelation ?

don't tell them, it goes against the scripture they like - lol

 

[DavidTree]

Don't go looking for him in the desert or any other secret place.

There's not going to be a secret rapture. When Jesus comes back to gather his children, he's going to light up the eastern sky. There will be no secret rapture. He's coming back once and that is to end this world and do justice and judgment.

He's not leaving any of his people behind...so no need to worry about or focus on that. We do need to focus on being prepared to stand, though. The only people that will be raptured alive from this earth, are those that stand until the end.

Oh Dear 1ofthem, you just crushed book sales.......

This Scripture alone can crush pre-trib:

But avoid irreverent, empty chatter, which will only lead to more ungodliness,
and the talk of such men will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
who have deviated from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already occurred, and they undermine the faith of some.
2 Timothy 2: 17-19

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

you do realize the book of revelation is called the book of apocalypse and translated to Say revelation ?

I realize that this INDEED the very first word of the text (of Rev):

apokalupsis: an uncovering
Original Word: ἀποκάλυψις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apokalupsis
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ok-al'-oop-sis)
Definition: an uncovering
Usage: an unveiling, uncovering, revealing, revelation.


I am in NO WAY denying such, or the fact that THIS ^ is indeed biblical.




But the writer (at link) is speaking specifically about the concept of "apocalyptic literature" (and what ideas are actually behind it by those who present it -- https://drreluctant.wordpress.com/2017/12/28/apocalyptic-fixation/ )

 

[DavidTree]

Don't go looking for him in the desert or any other secret place.

There's not going to be a secret rapture. When Jesus comes back to gather his children, he's going to light up the eastern sky. There will be no secret rapture. He's coming back once and that is to end this world and do justice and judgment.

He's not leaving any of his people behind...so no need to worry about or focus on that. We do need to focus on being prepared to stand, though. The only people that will be raptured alive from this earth, are those that stand until the end.

i am agreeing with your assessment, in post #183
just in case u read me otherwise

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[LINK messed up in that post... ran out of EDIT time]

https://drreluctant.wordpress.com/2017/12/28/apocalyptic-fixation/

 

[Pilgrimshope]

don't tell them, it goes against the scripture they like - lol

it’s because many have thought it to be a literal book of earthly events letting us calculate the time of the end. I’m pretty sure that’s why no one makes any sense to me when they explain timelines and 7 years of tribulation at the end ot doesn’t jive with Jesus word about the end

“And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭17:26-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

or Paul

“For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭5:2-4‬ ‭

doesn’t seem Like there’s going to be dragons and monsters and chaos in the earthly realm but if we’re looking it’s already in chaos in the spiritual realm I think of were looking at the world we’re going to be caught off guard but if we’re looking though scripture , we’re going to see what’s up

so like after Christ was taken up and seated on the throne in this chapter this comes to pass

“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s what it looks like to John who’s in the spirit and taken into heaven ( chapter 4) he’s looking into the earth from Gods spiritual perspective and so he sees the spiritual thkngs occuronf on earth but in earth it would sound like this to a Christian we can’t see it but

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭5:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and we’re told about it about how to prepare and fight this war

“Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭6:11-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬



It John is seeing the spirit to all reality because he’s looking at it from heaven

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Well, in the same way that the following verse is not speaking of "twinkling objects up in the sky" that we sing to our kids about...

Daniel 8:10 -

Berean Study Bible
It grew as high as the host of heaven, and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the earth, and trampled them.

King James Bible
And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.


...one should compare scripture with scripture to ascertain the meaning of things in "Revelation"


(even we "pre-tribbers" acknowledge this ... though I realize the accusation by those opposing pre-trib is that we are all "wooden literalists" or are "inconsistent" in ways they assume...)

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I realize that this INDEED the very first word of the text (of Rev):

apokalupsis: an uncovering
Original Word: ἀποκάλυψις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apokalupsis
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ok-al'-oop-sis)
Definition: an uncovering
Usage: an unveiling, uncovering, revealing, revelation.


I am in NO WAY denying such, or the fact that THIS ^ is indeed biblical.




But the writer (at link) is speaking specifically about the concept of "apocalyptic literature" (and what ideas are actually behind it by those who present it -- https://drreluctant.wordpress.com/2017/12/28/apocalyptic-fixation/ )

it wasn’t an insult but a question

what if the ideas behind it , are written in the scripture ? And the idea is that the prophetic scriptures , are being further revealed and shown or “ uncovered “ in an apocalypse ?

honestly I wasn’t trying to argue , I was saying it is the only apocalyptic “literature” in the Bible unless one counts Paul’s apocalypse so if that’s the one we have should we look for what it’s uncovering or “ revealing of the scripture prior

 

[DavidTree]

it’s because many have thought it to be a literal book of earthly events letting us calculate the time of the end. I’m pretty sure that’s why no one makes any sense to me when they explain timelines and 7 years of tribulation at the end ot doesn’t jive with Jesus word about the end

“And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭17:26-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

or Paul

“For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭5:2-4‬ ‭

doesn’t seem Like there’s going to be dragons and monsters and chaos in the earthly realm but if we’re looking it’s already in chaos in the spiritual realm I think of were looking at the world we’re going to be caught off guard but if we’re looking though scripture , we’re going to see what’s up

so like after Christ was taken up and seated on the throne in this chapter this comes to pass

“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s what it looks like to John who’s in the spirit and taken into heaven ( chapter 4) he’s looking into the earth from Gods spiritual perspective and so he sees the spiritual thkngs occuronf on earth but in earth it would sound like this to a Christian we can’t see it but

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭5:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and we’re told about it about how to prepare and fight this war

“Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭6:11-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬



It John is seeing the spirit to all reality because he’s looking at it from heaven

This Scripture alone crushes to death pre-trib:

But avoid irreverent, empty chatter, which will only lead to more ungodliness,
and the talk of such men will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
who have deviated from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already occurred, and they undermine the faith of some.
2 Timothy 2: 17-19

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

honestly I wasn’t trying to argue , I was saying it is the only apocalyptic “literature” in the Bible unless one counts Paul’s apocalypse so if that’s the one we have should we look for what it’s uncovering or “ revealing of the scripture prior

I wasn't trying to argue either... I was simply placing the link to that article for the benefit of any interested readers, in the event they perhaps want to venture more fully into just what is meant by the term "apocalyptic literature" by those out there espousing the concept (and what *they* mean by it).


I find it an important article on the subject.

https://drreluctant.wordpress.com/2017/12/28/apocalyptic-fixation/



[did it link right this time?? ugh]

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I wasn't trying to argue either... I was simply placing the link to that article for the benefit of any interested readers, in the event they perhaps want to venture more fully into just what is meant by the term "apocalyptic literature" by those out there espousing the concept (and what *they* mean by it).


I find it an important article on the subject.

https://drreluctant.wordpress.com/2017/12/28/apocalyptic-fixation/



[did it link right this time?? ugh]

Mayes understood I honestly never knew that it was an apocalypse until about two months ago. I was on YouTube and saw I video link for the word apocalypse and what it meant

I had been seeing references to prophecies in revelation for a couple years , when I learned the meaning of the word , ot made sense to me .

I was telling my brother earlier , I am trying to learn so I’m like a sponge of something is biblical I’ll check out that link because over the past few weeks I’ve become extremely convinced that it truly is an apocalypse that reveals the story of the Bible in an ordered fashion and offers clarity for scripture and opens up eyes to things we could t otherwise understand inthknknthatsbehatbthe blessing kn the end of revelation actually is getting at it’s a blessed book. Excuse it’s the only one we have looking from Gods spiritual perspective it has anointing other books don’t have

so I appreciate that you took time to share the link God bless

 

[John146]

You combined a falsehood with truth.

TRUTH: We are His Body the Church
falsehood: the Church will not see tribulation or go through tribulation

My mistake...the Church is the body of Christ, the collective group of all believers in Christ.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

This Scripture alone crushes to death pre-trib:

But avoid irreverent, empty chatter, which will only lead to more ungodliness,
and the talk of such men will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
who have deviated from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already occurred, and they undermine the faith of some.
2 Timothy 2: 17-19

yes I have never found a single support for the pre tribulation rapture from earth , I perceive it’s been happening for a very long time in waves since Babylon took Jerusalem about 600 -700 bc

I used to it study scripture and just listened to people explain what it meant. Like tv pastors and then I believed in a ore trib rapture because they had taught it and I had no eyes and ears yet

now for about 2-3 years I’ve been spending all my free time in scripture being sort of compelled to find out what God is telling us to believe and know in his word and have found a value in letting from everything I thought I knew and just beginning to allow what’s written teach me of course first and always in prayer asking and desiring to understand infeel
Is the most important aspect of study

Whatever we ask we shall receive is my hope

but honestly that’s only how I perceive it to be could be a rapture that I just don’t see , but I’m pretty convinced I don’t see it and I’ve looked a lot and discussed a lot with pre tribbers and have never had any scripture that has any clarity or weight that stood against the church enduring the world wiles and troubles and snares and attacks and tribulations of various kinds and then in the end of the world Jesus returning to gather his people and set the lake of fire ablaze receiving is into the kingdom on a sudden and sure and instant moment

 

[John146]

You, know, for the longest time i believed it was Moses and Elijah for they very scripture you post: when they appeared on the mount of transfiguration.

lately i think there is another who will take the place of Moses, according to scripture.

The law and the prophets...

 

[DavidTree]

I can’t remember any other two , who stood by with Jesus in his glory but I don’t know anything and certainly not everything I always allow that I could be cooky lol but have to follow where scripture is leading me.

“But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭9:27, 29-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see how both of them are in glory and the three disciples are witnessing Jesus , Moses and Elijah in glory and he just told them they would see the kingdom ? Also how they are witnessing of Jesus crucifixion ?

so you have three earthly witnesses , three heavenly glorified witnesses and God saying “ this is the one listen to him “

but I truly don’t know if there’s any other better understanding I never do I just have to go where scripture takes me I’ve found value in getting away from theology and thkngs esrablisjed in the world of how to understand the scriptures I think there’s a lot of fallacy and error in those thkngs but scripture paints a very clear and convincing picture that at least has me thinking I’m starting to see something powerful in the witness of Christ in the ot and epistles

Here are four contestants according to scripture: Enoch, Moses, Elijah, John

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Don't go looking for him in the desert or any other secret place.

There's not going to be a secret rapture. When Jesus comes back to gather his children, he's going to light up the eastern sky. There will be no secret rapture. He's coming back once and that is to end this world and do justice and judgment.

He's not leaving any of his people behind...so no need to worry about or focus on that. We do need to focus on being prepared to stand, though. The only people that will be raptured alive from this earth, are those that stand until the end.

100 percent agree and loves the way you said it !!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Here are four contestants according to scripture: Enoch, Moses, Elijah, John

why Enoch? and John who’s being told of the two witnesses ?

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

I think the removal of God’s people before His wrath is Biblical.

We think of prophecy as prediction and fulfillment. And some prophecy is that. But perhaps a more significant method of prophecy is in patterns.

Patterns as prophecy is all throughout the Bible. One of the most stark is Genesis 22, and the modeling or pattern of Abraham and Isaac, as a type of prophecy of Christ.

So if we look at the patterns of God’s wrath on the ungodly, and the removal of the righteous first, we see it all over the OT.

Enoch removed (or raptured) before judgement. Noah and family preserved through judgement.

Lot and his daughters removed and protected before and through judgement. Interesting, that God’s wrath couldn’t even start UNTIL they were removed.

Rahab preserved and saved through judgement.

So I think, obviously not certain, that there will be those removed before the GT. Those who are preserved (1/3 Jews?) through the GT.

Im not sure though why this needs to be a contentious issue for some people.

I strongly agree that bible prophecy uses patterns. It's one of the signatures of God.
Only he could bring about near & far fullfillment and impact human history to tell his story in such rich detail the way he does.

 

[DavidTree]

why Enoch? and John who’s being told of the two witnesses ?

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Hebrews 9:27