1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 Vs. Matthew 24:29-31

[Ahwatukee]

Can ya now

In my study, in my understanding, judgment and wrath are not the same thing. Judgment is more a legal proceeding, structured and calculated and by the book. Wrath is an emotional response, it involves anger and vengeance and revenge... vengeance is mine says the Lord, right? I don't think it's right or Biblical to conflate the two. Judgment and wrath are not the same thing.

I can see how with that opinion pre-trib makes more sense. But if you see judgment and wrath as differing, pre wrath makes sense.

I do hope and pray that you are right, but I really honestly think you're wrong. And there's no way I'm ever going to convince you to consider that, is there?

Bless you my friend

I don't have prove anything other than Christ already satisfied God's wrath on behalf of every believer. And since God's wrath must take place leading up to the Lord's return to the earth, then we the church cannot be exposed to it and will be removed.

As I said in the previous post, God's wrath is His judgment. There will also be the Sheep and the goat judgment and then finally the great white throne judgment, which will be what you explained above, i.e. a legal proceeding. But His wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will also take place. The seals, trumpets and bowls are referred to as wrath, plagues and as judgments.

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."

Since the bowl judgments are the last plagues of wrath, that would mean that other judgments of wrath would have to come before them, i.e. the seals and trumpets.

And the third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and springs of water, and they turned to blood. And I heard the angel of the waters say:

Stated after the sea and fresh water is turned into blood by the pouring out of the 2nd and 3rd bowls:

“Righteous are You, O Holy One, who is and was, because You have brought these judgments (krino).

For they have spilled the blood of saints and prophets,

and You have given them blood to drink,

as they deserve.”

And I heard the altar reply:

“Yes, Lord God Almighty,

true and just are Your judgments.”
==========================================================

So, God's judgment is to bring wrath upon the inhabitants of the earth via the seals, trumpets and bowls judgments.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

that your-ticket-is-punched moment - that's your rapture, baby

Well, the text of 1Th4 states that we'll be "CAUGHT UP TOGETHER [/AT THE SAME TIME] WITH" the dead in Christ who shall have already done the "shall rise FIRST" thing (before the "CAUGHT UP / SNATCH [/RAPTURE] TOGETHER [/AT THE SAME TIME]" event occurs [only] at ONE SINGULAR POINT IN TIME). Not every time a saint dies, see.

 

[rayzor]

TOOLS The middle trib is 4 the bad guys = 2:22

Rev 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation G2347 ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
TOOLS

Rev 2:22
Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, G2347 except they repent of their deeds.
TOOLS

Rev 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, G2347 and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Yahshua]

Tribulation means "persecution of saints by the world (i.e. unbelievers)."

Wrath means "Judgment by The Almighty and/or The Lamb upon the world (i.e. unbelievers)."

----

The Almighty (and the Lamb) have never removed their saints from any tribulation from the beginning of the scriptures to the end. Saints either had to endure tribulation and sometimes die, or they were protected through it...but never removed. Comparatively, saints are removed before wrath falls (because that usually means complete destruction). These two concepts are different.

The Great Tribulation is the great "persecution of saints by the world (i.e. unbelievers)."

And it's the spilled blood of those saints that incurs the Almighty's wrath upon the world.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Jesus told the farmer his life would be demanded that night. That heart attack, that car crash, that your-ticket-is-punched moment - that's your rapture, baby

In order to come to a right interpretation, you need to read the details of the related scriptures on this subject. Below is the scripture:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be [caught up] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."

So at God's timing, the Lord will descend to the atmosphere where those who have died in Christ throughout the entire church period will be resurrected. Then, it states that we who are still alive in Christ, will be transformed and caught up with those who will have just resurrected, to meet the Lord in the air. The fact that the living are meeting the resurrected in the air demonstrates that the gathering of both the dead and the living takes place in close proximity, i.e. it's a group event.

In addition, when the dead in Christ are resurrected they are raised in their immortal and glorified states. Likewise, those who are still alive will be transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies in moment, in the twinkling of an eye.

The word 'anastasis' translated as 'Resurrection' means to stand up again in a physical body. Those who are still alive will simply be transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies.

In short, immediately after the resurrection takes place, the living will be changed and will be 'caught up' (raptured) with those who will have just been resurrected. After that, the Lord will take the entire group to the Father's house in their immoral and glorified bodies.

According to scripture, when a believer dies, their spirit goes to be in the presence of the Lord. However, this is not the rapture, because their spirits have left their bodies. When the resurrection of the dead and the living are changed, at that time they will receive their immortal and glorified bodies because flesh and blood cannot in inherit the kingdom of God.

==========================================================
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we (those still alive) will be changed. For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
========================================================================

So, at the resurrection of the church, both the dead and the living will be caught up (raptured) in their immortal and glorified bodies.

To be clear, when a believer dies, it is not the rapture.

 

[rayzor]

Tribulation means "persecution of saints by the world (i.e. unbelievers)."

Wrath means "Judgment by The Almighty and/or The Lamb upon the world (i.e. unbelievers)."

----

The Almighty (and the Lamb) have never removed their saints from any tribulation from the beginning of the scriptures to the end. Saints either had to endure tribulation and sometimes die, or they were protected through it...but never removed. Comparatively, saints are removed before wrath falls (because that usually means complete destruction). These two concepts are different.

The Great Tribulation is the great "persecution of saints by the world (i.e. unbelievers)."

And it's the spilled blood of those saints that incurs the Almighty's wrath upon the world.[/QUOTE Rev2:22 it that a massage to the bad guys

 

[Ahwatukee]

Tribulation means "persecution of saints by the world (i.e. unbelievers)."

Wrath means "Judgment by The Almighty and/or The Lamb upon the world (i.e. unbelievers)."

----

The Almighty (and the Lamb) have never removed their saints from any tribulation from the beginning of the scriptures to the end. Saints either had to endure tribulation and sometimes die, or they were protected through it...but never removed. Comparatively, saints are removed before wrath falls (because that usually means complete destruction). These two concepts are different.

The Great Tribulation is the great "persecution of saints by the world (i.e. unbelievers)."

And it's the spilled blood of those saints that incurs the Almighty's wrath upon the world.

Hello Yahshua,

You have to keep in mind that the coming wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be in process during that entire seven years overshadowing the beasts kingdom and all that the false prophet does. In fact, everything that goes on during that time period is a part of God's wrath. And since believers within the church are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then we cannot be on the earth to be exposed to it.

The Almighty (and the Lamb) have never removed their saints from any tribulation from the beginning of the scriptures to the end.

First of all, just because the righteous have not previously been removed from the earth, doesn't mean that it won't happen. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, will affect the inhabitants of the whole inhabited world. There will be no Ark's to board and no small cities to run to. God's wrath during that time will be unprecedented! This is why the Lord is going to descend to the atmosphere to gather His church and take us back to the Father's house, to remove us prior to said wrath. This is also why you do not see the word church within the narrative of God's wrath, i.e. they're gone!

Many people make this claim not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath.

My advice would be for you to do an in depth study on the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and then reconsider your claim of the church being on the earth during that time.

 

[Ahwatukee]

TOOLS The middle trib is 4 the bad guys = 2:22

Rev 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation G2347 ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
TOOLS

Rev 2:22
Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, G2347 except they repent of their deeds.
TOOLS

This has to do with the church during the church period. In fact, the letters to the seven churches symbolically represent the entire church period, i.e. the "what is now" portion of what John was told to write and which we are still in.

This below takes place during the "what must take place later" portion of what John was told to write, i.e. after the church period.

Rev 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, G2347 and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The very fact that the elder is asking John who this group is and that he doesn't know who they are, demonstrates that they are not the church, but those who will become believers after the church has been removed. Take notice that this group is never referred to as the church, ever!

 

[John146]

If our Lord were to tarry where only one living stone remains in Him on earth - will this Scripture be void?

Nope, but those who state that the Church will go through the tribulation is made void because the Church is the collective body of believers from the cross up to the rapture.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

When you get the chance, see what the total of 'seven' shows up in Revelation and a net total when you deduct for redundancy where 'seven' is applied to the same item/subject.

hoping you have seen Star Trek the real one

“ dang it Jim , I’m a Bible student , not a mathematician “

😅 I don’t even know what you’ve asked brother

did you notice that revelation is. Ot a continuous vision but there are two sections ?

“The law and the prophets were until John:

since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Notice in chapter eleven the two witnesses are taken up from the earth and the kingdom is declared to have arrived and John is handed a little open book sent to Many nations ?

where as chapter 4 begins and leads into a book written within and without and it’s sealed ? Jesus takes it d later at the end of the first vision a smaller open book is given to an apostle and sent to many nations

then the next begins showing israel having her promised son and he’s quickly taken up to heaven where the kingdom is now established and earth is where Satan starts warring against the offspring carrying the witness of Jesus ?

 

[DavidTree]

Nope, but those who state that the Church will go through the tribulation is made void because the Church is the collective body of believers from the cross up to the rapture.

Ok, that is your opinion, if it were true you would be able to show it from Scripture ALONE.

Nope, but those who state that the Church will go through the tribulation is made void because the Church is the collective body of believers from the cross up to the rapture.

Good Morning, In case you have not seen this, i have made a open TRUTH challenge to the pre-trib fallacy.

$1,000 (US dollars) to the first person that can show the scripture(s) that clearly state: The Bride of Christ/His Elect/the Church is pre-tribulation raptured before the First Resurrection and before the Antichrist. The Bride of Christ/His Elect/the Church as a whole Body of Believers.

*** IMPORTANT - Individual believers/resurrections/raptures such as Enoch, Elijah, Lazarrus, John and the Saints from Matthew 27:51-53 (which is the fulfillment of Isaiah 26:19) = DO NOT QUALIFY.

Rules have been set forth by the Moderator = our Lord Jesus Christ

Rules Apply: ONLY Scripture: No Conjecture - No Commentaries - No personal belief statements

Rules for Disqualification: Seeking to Argue/Arguments - Adding to or taking away from God's Word - Personal Belief Statements - Conjecture

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book." Revelation 22:18-19

Proverbs 30: 5-6 "Every word of God is flawless; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.

Deuteronomy 4:1-2 Hear now, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances I am teaching you to follow, so that you may live and may enter and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you
You must not add to or subtract from what I command you, so that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I am giving you.

EXAMPLE to Follow as Your Guide: Show Proof (Scripture) that Jesus is the ONLY way we can be saved.

ANSWER(S): John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by Me.
Acts 4:11-12 This Jesus is ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’
Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

 

[DavidTree]

hoping you have seen Star Trek the real one

“ dang it Jim , I’m a Bible student , not a mathematician “

😅 I don’t even know what you’ve asked brother

did you notice that revelation is. Ot a continuous vision but there are two sections ?

“The law and the prophets were until John:

since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Notice in chapter eleven the two witnesses are taken up from the earth and the kingdom is declared to have arrived and John is handed a little open book sent to Many nations ?

where as chapter 4 begins and leads into a book written within and without and it’s sealed ? Jesus takes it d later at the end of the first vision a smaller open book is given to an apostle and sent to many nations

then the next begins showing israel having her promised son and he’s quickly taken up to heaven where the kingdom is now established and earth is where Satan starts warring against the offspring carrying the witness of Jesus ?

Any idea of who the two witnesses are?

 

[DavidTree]

hoping you have seen Star Trek the real one

“ dang it Jim , I’m a Bible student , not a mathematician “

Yes, i watched that one and most as well.

 

[Rockson]

The very fact that the elder is asking John who this group is and that he doesn't know who they are, demonstrates that they are not the church, but those who will become believers after the church has been removed. Take notice that this group is never referred to as the church, ever!

It always amazes me how people can acknowledged that YES they are saved people but their not members of the ekklēsía The Church. What exactly are they if not Christian brethren, members of the church in this generation or the next? Were they saved by any other way or means other than Jesus and by what he did on the cross?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"The Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" - see Ephesians 1:20-23 [WHEN (as to its existence)]; see also what Jesus had said specifically in John 7:39






[certainly there were people of "faith" prior to that ^ point in time--"Abraham" for example (Romans 4:3)... tons of other OT saints, right?? We're not denying that, at all ]

 

[DavidTree]

The Lord of lords, King of kings, JESUS the Christ, is Returning/Second Coming for His Church/His Body/His Elect.

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Hi @DavidTree ,

notice this post I made some time back (on that Subject you've posted ^ ):


We (provided we're the "ALIVE and remain" / still-living at the time) are NOT said to "go up there and meet THEM where they've already been 'caught up' PRIOR to us being 'caught up'..." . No, the TEXT STATES that we will be "caught up TOGETHER [G260]" (meaning, the verb-action for both happens AT THE SAME TIME).

[from BibleHub, under the word "together [G260]" in that verse]

"In 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:10, where ἅμα is followed by σύν, ἅμα is an adverb ([meaning] 'at the same time') and must be joined to the verb."

[end quoting from BibleHub; bold and underline mine; bracketed insert mine, for clarity]


____________

What this is saying ^ is that, the "SNATCH-ACTION" takes place at ONE SINGULAR point in time... (for BOTH "the dead in Christ" who will have already just experienced the "shall rise first" part, AND the "we which are alive and remain" snatched-up TOGETHER AT THE SAME TIME, in ONE SNATCH-ACTION... that is, the "still-alive" of us snatched up at the SAME TIME that the "dead in Christ" [now "resurrected," at the time] will be snatched up)

 

[DavidTree]

Hi @DavidTree ,

notice this post I made some time back (on that Subject you've posted ^ ):


We (provided we're the "ALIVE and remain" / still-living at the time) are NOT said to "go up there and meet THEM where they've already been 'caught up' PRIOR to us being 'caught up'..." . No, the TEXT STATES that we will be "caught up TOGETHER [G260]" (meaning, the verb-action for both happens AT THE SAME TIME).

[from BibleHub, under the word "together [G260]" in that verse]

"In 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:10, where ἅμα is followed by σύν, ἅμα is an adverb ([meaning] 'at the same time') and must be joined to the verb."

[end quoting from BibleHub; bold and underline mine; bracketed insert mine, for clarity]

lol x1000

OK, Mr. Twister
You continue to 'add to and take away' from Scripture - big trouble ahead.

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30: 5-6

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I had added to my post:

What this is saying ^ is that, the "SNATCH-ACTION" takes place at ONE SINGULAR point in time... (for BOTH "the dead in Christ" who will have already just experienced the "shall rise first" part, AND the "we which are alive and remain" snatched-up TOGETHER AT THE SAME TIME, in ONE SNATCH-ACTION... that is, the "still-alive" of us snatched up at the SAME TIME that the "dead in Christ" [now "resurrected," at the time] will be snatched up)





The ADVERB ("together [G260]") MUST be joined to the VERB ("caught up"); this makes it ONE "snatch-action" (for the entire "ONE BODY" at ONE POINT IN TIME)... the passage is NOT stating that we "still-alive" ones will go to meet the others who will have already arrived at "the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" ahead of us... No.

The "shall rise first" speaks of their "bodies" being "resurrected" (<--defined as "to stand again [on the earth]"); it does NOT refer to their having been "caught up [harpazo'd]" PRIOR TO the others. No.

Rather, "CAUGHT UP [VERB] TOGETHER [ADVERB--meaning, AT THE SAME TIME (caught up at the SAME TIME that THEY will ALSO be "caught up")]"






The ADVERB must be connected with the VERB (just as in any properly grammar'd sentence )

That is what THE TEXT ITSELF is telling US.

 

[DavidTree]

I had added to my post:

What this is saying ^ is that, the "SNATCH-ACTION" takes place at ONE SINGULAR point in time... (for BOTH "the dead in Christ" who will have already just experienced the "shall rise first" part, AND the "we which are alive and remain" snatched-up TOGETHER AT THE SAME TIME, in ONE SNATCH-ACTION... that is, the "still-alive" of us snatched up at the SAME TIME that the "dead in Christ" [now "resurrected," at the time] will be snatched up)





The ADVERB ("together [G260]") MUST be joined to the VERB ("caught up"); this makes it ONE "snatch-action" (for the entire "ONE BODY" at ONE POINT IN TIME)... the passage is NOT stating that we "still-alive" ones will go to meet the others who will have already arrived at "the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" ahead of us... No.

The "shall rise first" speaks of their "bodies" being "resurrected" (<--defined as "to stand again [on the earth]"); it does NOT refer to their having been "caught up [harpazo'd]" PRIOR TO the others. No.

Rather, "CAUGHT UP [VERB] TOGETHER [ADVERB--meaning, AT THE SAME TIME (caught up at the SAME TIME that THEY will ALSO be "caught up")]"






The ADVERB must be connected with the VERB (just as in any properly grammar'd sentence )

That is what THE TEXT ITSELF is telling US.

And the word of the Lord corrects you

The Lord of lords, King of kings, JESUS the Christ, is Returning/Second Coming for His Church/His Body/His Elect.

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18