1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 Vs. Matthew 24:29-31

[Blain]

The person that you are posting to is obviously on my ignore list. If you don't mind me asking, what is the verse in question? Is it Revelation 3:10 by any chance?

Yes it is

 

[Blain]

i love Revelation 3: 10-12
10. Because you have kept My command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
11. I am coming soon. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.
12. The one who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will never again leave it. Upon him I will write the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God), and My new name.

Our Lord did not say He was going to rapture/take away/catch away/caught up/remove/displace/secret removal in this passage.

Remember the Rules set forth by our Lord Jesus Christ - 'Do not add or take away from My Words'.....

Revelation 3: 10 -12 says what it says and is easy to understand and receive 'without adding or taking away'.
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of testing (temptation not tribulation).
I am coming soon.

No pre-trib rapture - no where, but He is coming soon for EVERYONE who are His.

This keep/keeping/kept has already been clearly defined by our Lord.

I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, protect them by Your name, the name You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one.
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17: 11-12

Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
Jude 1:24

Sola Scriptura, where idols are crushed to dust, where religion dies, where men come ALIVE
and where God is Glorified.

The testing he keeps us from doesn't just mean temptation the definition of testing is

• n.
  
  The act of testing or proving; trial; proof.
• n.
  
  The operation of refining gold or silver in a test, or cupel; cupellation.
• n.
  
  a machine used in the determination of the strength of materials, as iron, stone, etc., and their behavior under strains of various kinds, as elongation, bending, crushing, etc

To say it means temptation is a clever loophole but not the meaning of the word the only temptation one would go through in the tribulation is taking the mark and even then he will keep us from it?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"The day of the Lord" is not: 1) merely a singular 24-hr day, and 2) does not arrive at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, nor 3/4 of the way through the 7 trib years; Rather, it "ARRIVES," like Paul states, at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:1-3]" (per what Jesus Himself talked about in His Olivet Discourse: Matt24:4/Mk13:5<--the FIRST of MANY MORE "BPs" that follow on from that INITIAL ONE... and these "beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" are equivalent to the SEALS at the START of the "7 years" [not their END, nor even commencing 3/4 of the way through those years])...


Consider also:

Isaiah 13:9 -

"Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it."





Zephaniah 1:18 -

Bishops' Bible of 1568
"Neither their siluer nor their gold shalbe able to deliuer them in that wrothful day of the Lorde, but the who e lande shalbe consumed thorowe the fire of his ielousie: for he shall soone make cleane riddaunce of all them that dwell in the lande."

Coverdale Bible of 1535
"Nether their syluer ner their golde shalbe able to delyuer the in that wrothfull daye of the LORDE, but the whole londe shalbe cosumed thorow the fyre of his gelousy: for he shall soone make clene ryddaunce of all them that dwell in the londe."

 

[JTB]

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
=====================================================

Matthew 24:29-31

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

==========================================================================================

Hello all! I decided to post this because I keep seeing people posting these two events as being the same and taking place at the same time, which they are not.

First of all, in comparing the two scriptures, at the time of the resurrection and the living being changed and caught up as described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, angels DO NOT gather those being resurrected, nor the living being changed and caught up. The scripture states that we are raised in power, not gathered by angels. The Lord with a voice like a trumpet, will resurrect and call up the dead in Christ and then immediately after that the living in Christ will be transformed immortal and glorified and will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected. At this point the entire church will be gathered to meet the Lord in the air. To reiterate, no angels gather the church at this event.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 mentions that there will be a "load command, with the voice of an archangel" to announce the Lord's appearing, i.e. the Bridegrooms arrival for His bride. The mention of the voice of the loud command from the archangel is in the 'genitive, masculine, singular,' i.e. one archangel. In opposition, Matthew 24:31 has the Lord sending out many angels who will go throughout the four corners of the earth to gather the living survivors of the great tribulation saints. To be clear, Matthew 24:31 is not the gathering of the church, but the gathering of those great tribulation saints who will have survived the great tribulation period.

In addition, the "Trumpet of God" and the "last trumpet" of 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52, respectively, is not the same as the "Loud Trumpet call" referred to in Matthew 24:31 which is used to send out the angels to gather the living elect. They are different trumpets. The trumpet of God in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is to gather the dead and the living in Christ from off the earth. Where the "loud trumpet call" in Matthew 24:31 is to send the angels out to gather the living survivors of the great tribulation saints. What is not mentioned in Matthew 24:31 but is mentioned in Matthew 13, is that when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the angels first gather the weeds/wicked, then they bring the wheat/righteous into the Lord's barn.

And second of all, when we received Christ, we were credited with His righteousness and reconciled to God. As Isaiah 53 says, the punishment that brought us peace was upon Christ, meaning that God's wrath was already satisfied through Christ on behalf of every believer. Either Christ's punishment brought us peace with God or it didn't! For those who continue to have the living church gathered after God's wrath, they cannot truly believe that Jesus satisfied God's wrath. They're speaking out of both sides of their mouths.

Since believers within the church are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then the Lord's promise in John 14:1-3 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 to come back to get His church and to take us back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us, must take place prior to the on-set of God's wrath.

And thirdly, in opposition to Matthew 24:31 which states that "all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory." In opposition, nothing is mentioned of the people of the earth seeing the Lord arriving nor His gathering of the church as described in John 14:1-3, 1Thessalonians 4:15-17. In the event when the Lord comes to gather His church, it is to take them back to the Father's house. Where in opposition, Matthew 24:29-31 is the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. So, one is coming to gather His church to take them back to heaven and the other is to return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.

I would also mention after the detailed account of the church being gathered in 1 Thessalonians 4:18, Paul says "Therefore encourage one another with these words. If the church were to first go through God's wrath and then be gathered, then we could not encourage each other with those words, because we be suffering the same wrath as the wicked. It is the same thing found in John 14:1, for Jesus says "let not your hearts be troubled." If believers within the church were to go through God's wrath and gathered afterwards, then we would certainly have reason to be troubled.

* The gathering of the church takes place prior to God's wrath (John 14:1-3, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:51-53)

* The Lord's return to the earth to end the age takes place after God's wrath (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 1:7, 19:11-21)

Ahwa, can you please explain (in your opinion) the difference between Gods 'judgement' and His 'wrath', and how these play out differently in the end?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The testing he keeps us from doesn't just mean temptation the definition of testing is

Not only that, but the verse states "to try them that dwell [/dwelling - G2730 - katoikeo] upon the earth"

^ That simply is NOT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (who are INSTEAD said to be "ambassadors," and whose "citizenship is in the heavens," and who've been exhorted NOT "to mind earthly things" [Israel's "earthly" things] but rather to "set your minds on things above," where Christ is seated and where WE have been "seated together" with Him "in the heavenlies, IN CHRIST JESUS");




Here's the word "G2730 - katoikeo" (used in Rev3:10) -


HELPS Word-studies

2730 katoikéō (from 2596 /katá, "down, according to," intensifying 3611 /oikéō, "dwell, reside") – properly, settle down as a permanent resident, i.e. in a fixed (permanent) dwelling place as one's personal residence; (figuratively) "to be exactly at home."

[The force of the prefix (2596 /katá) suggests "down to the finest, exact details."]


[end quoting from BibleHub]




____________

["Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance,..." = who grasp the above ^ issues ]

 

[DWR]

Hello Blain!

The reason, for the most part, is that they have adopted the false teachings of men and labeled it as God's word. We are warned about this time when people would not put up with sound doctrine:

"For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

So says this false teacher.
The verse he quoted fits him perfectly.

 

[Rockson]

Follow the timeline in Revelation. Chapters 1-3 are about Christ and the church age. Chapter 4:1 begins with "After this..." after what? After the church age. It's plain language. What is the scene? The trumpet voice call from heaven.

What!? Sorry but I hardly think it's credible that you can pull what you're saying out of those verses. Chapter 3 yes is dealing with different type of churches or gathering of believers and telling them what they need to be aware of but to say AFTER THIS in Ch 4:1 now it's not even a message that relates to the church is pushing an interpretation and not being warranted to do so.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You pointed out some important OT truths - God' people are not appointed to His Wrath.
This is clearly repeated in the NT writings.

and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.
1 Thessalonians 1: 10

You said: "Im not sure though why this needs to be a contentious issue for some people."

It is first contentious with our Lord to promote error, most especially when it 'adds to and takes away from His Words'

If this were not so He would of never said:
I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book. Rev 22: 18-19

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30: 5-6

Hear now, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances I am teaching you to follow, so that you may live and may enter and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. You must not add to or subtract from what I command you, so that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I am giving you. Deuteronomy 4: 1-2

This is a irrevocable commandment and pattern set forth by our Lord since the very beginning in the Garden.

The first attack by satan was against His Word. He succeeded and brought the entire creation down with him.
Thankfully TRUTH prevailed - In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word is God. John 1:1
And the Word became flesh and we beheld His Glory..........full of Grace and Truth. John 1:14

As long as the Holy Spirit is here with us, in us, to guide us into all Truth, there will be contentions.
The Spirit of Truth does not shy away from the spirit of error - there will always be these contentions when they arise.
There are serious negative outcomes from the error of pre-trib that out Lord wants us to avoid and He clearly showed this to us in His Word.
His addressing the seven churches of Revelation are most evident of these things and the writings of the Apostles.

do we think the number seven is a literal count in revelation ? Or is it a seal of some sort to identify what’s complete and true ? And possibly points to Christ Jesus ?

“And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,”
‭‭Jude‬ ‭1:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: ( Hebrews 4:12) and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.( Matthew 17:2)

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:12, 16, 20‬ ‭

“And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:1, 5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭8:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭10:3, 7-8‬ ‭KJV‬

“And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Getting long but it Seems like it all connects and reveals someone or something or both , and could maybe be not a literal count of seven of anything

 

[Blain]

Not only that, but the verse states "to try them that dwell [/dwelling - G2730 - katoikeo] upon the earth"

^ That simply is NOT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (who are INSTEAD said to be "ambassadors," and whose "citizenship is in the heavens," and who've been exhorted NOT "to mind earthly things" [Israel's "earthly" things] but rather to "set your minds on things above," where Christ is seated and where WE have been "seated together" with Him "in the heavenlies, IN CHRIST JESUS");




Here's the word "G2730 - katoikeo" (used in Rev3:10) -


HELPS Word-studies

2730 katoikéō (from 2596 /katá, "down, according to," intensifying 3611 /oikéō, "dwell, reside") – properly, settle down as a permanent resident, i.e. in a fixed (permanent) dwelling place as one's personal residence; (figuratively) "to be exactly at home."

[The force of the prefix (2596 /katá) suggests "down to the finest, exact details."]


[end quoting from BibleHub]




____________

["Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance,..." = who grasp the above ^ issues ]

Exactly which is why I said to him using the word that way is a clever loophole but the word is not used in that way and honestly what you wrote is just common sense. But I expected this though scripture was given that clealry states who the testing is for and of course it fell on deaf ears and then manipulated to say something else which I knew would happen

 

[Rockson]

Hello all! I decided to post this because I keep seeing people posting these two events as being the same and taking place at the same time, which they are not.

Sorry Ahwatukee but from what I'm seeing they are.

First of all, in comparing the two scriptures, at the time of the resurrection and the living being changed and caught up as described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, angels DO NOT gather those being resurrected, nor the living being changed and caught up. The scripture states that we are raised in power, not gathered by angels. The Lord with a voice like a trumpet, will resurrect and call up the dead in Christ and then immediately after that the living in Christ will be transformed immortal and glorified and will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected. At this point the entire church will be gathered to meet the Lord in the air. To reiterate, no angels gather the church at this event.

Athwatukee I think you're missing a simple thing of scripture. One DOESN'T HAVE TO have all things mentioned the same to make it THE SAME. The gospels are full of such examples. In Luke 7 we see where a Centurion sent the Jews and servants to get Jesus to come to his house. In Luke it states he sent friends to tell him he need not come but just speak the word only.....in a different gospel is merely says a Centurion said this. So one account just deals with certain items which were true the other is more of a full account of what happened. I could say to you something through my lawyer but it still me saying it. There are many other examples of this in the gospels too. So that's proof you don't have to have all the things in one account exactly the same as the other.

 

[Rockson]

Well said! Not only that, but the church would be suffering the same wrath as the wicked. I think that one of the problems is that people don't understand the severity of God's coming wrath. For example, when has the world have seen demonic beings coming up out of the Abyss to torment mankind with the stings like those of a scorpion? And the Lord is going to put His bride through that? And that's just one example.

But you won't see that until Rev 9:10 . The Tribulation might have ended at Rev 6:17 and then the wrath of God begins. In other words the Seals are not the wrath of God.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Yes it is

Thanks for responding!

You are correct in that "this verse seems to prove an action taken to shelter or protect us from it." Below is the verse:

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you [out of] the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."

Many of the translations have it "I will keep you [from] the hour of trial," which still works. The Greek word is 'ek' which means 'out of,' i.e. the Lord is going to keep believers within the church [out of] the hour of trial, not protect us through it, but out of it, meaning that we will not even be exposed to those events of wrath that will be coming upon the whole inhabited world. I personally believe that this is a hint regarding the gathering of the church in that, the Lord will keep us out of that time of God's wrath by gathering us to meet Him in the air according to His promise.

 

[Icedaisey]

Where are those Bible verses that state the church shall go through the Great Tribulation?

 

[Blain]

Thanks for responding!

You are correct in that "this verse seems to prove an action taken to shelter or protect us from it." Below is the verse:

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you [out of] the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."

Many of the translations have it "I will keep you [from] the hour of trial," which still works. The Greek word is 'ek' which means 'out of,' i.e. the Lord is going to keep believers within the church [out of] the hour of trial, not protect us through it, but out of it, meaning that we will not even be exposed to those events of wrath that will be coming upon the whole inhabited world. I personally believe that this is a hint regarding the gathering of the church in that, the Lord will keep us out of that time of God's wrath by gathering us to meet Him in the air according to His promise.

Yes exactly and I truly believe that time is very close. If you didn't know this is the 70th shemitah year since Israel came back to it's land the year coming is 5782 the meaning of this is the letter bet in the hebrew alphabet meaning to shelter house or dwelling not to mention the sheer profund fact it will be the 70th shemitah year since the end times clock countdown with Israel

I am in deep research on the end times right now and the more I dig the more I am convinced that this shemitah year will be a turning point perhaps even the rapture and the start of the tribulation

 

[Blain]

Where are those Bible verses that state the church shall go through the Great Tribulation?

Yes I also requested that but perhaps I missed it because I haven't seen them.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Ahwa, can you please explain (in your opinion) the difference between Gods 'judgement' and His 'wrath', and how these play out differently in the end?

Well, I can explain it based on God's word. God's judgment and wrath are just two words describing the same events. In Revelation, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are referred to as plagues, judgments and wrath, which is speaking in regards to the unprecedented plagues of wrath that God will be unleashing upon the world though various angels, as well as the plagues that are brought by the two witnesses. The book of Revelation is a detailed account of the 'The Day of the Lord,' i.e. the time of God's wrath, which has been prophesied for thousands of years through various prophets. Compare the following info regarding the Day of the Lord:

========================================================
“I will completely sweep away everything from the face of the earth,”

declares the LORD.

“I will sweep away man and beast;

I will sweep away the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea,

and the idols with their wicked worshipers.

I will cut off mankind from the face of the earth,” - Zephaniah 1:2-3

Compare:

For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short. - Matt.24:21-22

====================================================================================
With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, the fatalities during the time of God's wrath will be a fourth and a third, respectively, which would be over half the earth's population killed within the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. And that does not include the fatalities resulting from trumpets 1,2 and 3, nor from the bowl judgments. This definitely supports when Jesus said, if those days were allowed to go on any longer than the prophesied time, no one would be left alive on the earth.

When the Lord returns to the earth, the angels will go out and first gather the wicked/weeds (Matt.13:30) and take them to the area of Armageddon where they will be killed by the double-edged sword which proceeds from the mouth of the Lord, which symbolically represents the word of God. (Revelation 19:21)

The last judgment will take place after the millennial period at the great white throne judgment, where all of the angels and unrighteous dead will be judged and then thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[DavidTree]

Where are those Bible verses that state the church shall go through the Great Tribulation?

They are easily seen in Scripture.
The foundation for Truth in understanding Revelation is this spoken by the Apostle John:
I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” Acts 14: 22

What is not seen in Scripture is pre-trib rapture or 'the church shall not go through the great tribulation.

But hey, you can make a EASY $1,000

$1,000 (US dollars) to the first person that can show the scripture(s) that clearly state: The Bride of Christ/His Elect/the Church is pre-tribulation raptured before the First Resurrection and before the Antichrist. The Bride of Christ/His Elect/the Church as a whole Body of Believers.

*** IMPORTANT - Individual believers/resurrections/raptures such as Enoch, Elijah, Lazarrus, John and the Saints from Matthew 27:51-53 (which is the fulfillment of Isaiah 26:19) = DO NOT QUALIFY.

Rules have been set forth by the Moderator = our Lord Jesus Christ

Rules Apply: ONLY Scripture: No Conjecture - No Commentaries - No personal belief statements

Rules for Disqualification: Seeking to Argue/Arguments - Adding to or taking away from God's Word - Personal Belief Statements - Conjecture

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book." Revelation 22:18-19

Proverbs 30: 5-6 "Every word of God is flawless; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.

Deuteronomy 4:1-2 Hear now, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances I am teaching you to follow, so that you may live and may enter and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you
You must not add to or subtract from what I command you, so that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I am giving you.

EXAMPLE to Follow as Your Guide: Show Proof (Scripture) that Jesus is the ONLY way we can be saved.

ANSWER(S): John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by Me.
Acts 4:11-12 This Jesus is ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’
Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

 

[JTB]

To me the scriptures are so clear but I have yet to convince a pre-tribber that their view is not found in the Bible.

If I may add: preaching a doctrine of a pre-trib rapture (invented by the Anglican preacher John Darby in the 1800s by the way) is not an endeavor with no consequences. The doctrine cuts off any attempt to prepare the people of God for the changes that will come upon the world. Because they believe they're just going to "get out of here before it gets bad" they have no ear for teachings that promote resilience and long-suffering and being kept by the Lord's power and growing in maturity towards God. Is it any wonder how this doctrine came from the same circles that teach "problems in your life are a result of something YOU did"? It appeals to the religious mind that does not know the character of God.

In fact, the Bible says many will turn away from God because they were not prepared.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Sorry Ahwatukee but from what I'm seeing they are.



Athwatukee I think you're missing a simple thing of scripture. One DOESN'T HAVE TO have all things mentioned the same to make it THE SAME. The gospels are full of such examples. In Luke 7 we see where a Centurion sent the Jews and servants to get Jesus to come to his house. In Luke it states he sent friends to tell him he need not come but just speak the word only.....in a different gospel is merely says a Centurion said this. So one account just deals with certain items which were true the other is more of a full account of what happened. I could say to you something through my lawyer but it still me saying it. There are many other examples of this in the gospels too. So that's proof you don't have to have all the things in one account exactly the same as the other.

Hello again!

First of all, I have been studying this information for a very long time and am therefore not speaking off the cuff of my sleeve. I don't post or teach anything that I am not sure of. I am very aware that there are different details regarding the same events in scripture. However, that cannot be applied here with Matthew 24:29-31 vs. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

The point that I was getting across is that people make the mistake of interpreting Matt.24:29-31 as being the same event as 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. These are not the same event with just different details, but are completely different events.

The event of 1 Thess.4:16-17, is when the Lord appears in the atmosphere and resurrects the dead and changes and calls up the living believers immortal and glorified. At that time the entire church will be gathered in the same place at the same time, where in fulfillment of John 14:1-3 the Lord will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.

In opposition, Matt.24:29-31 is when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establishes His millennial kingdom. At this time, He will send out His angels who will be gathering LIVING people who will have made it through the entire period of God's wrath. To be clear, angels going out to gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other, is not in reference to the gathering of the church, but to gather those great tribulation saints who will have made it alive through that entire time of wrath.

So, this is not a matter of one scripture being a summary and the other being a detailed account, but they are two completely different events. As I said in the OP, the church cannot be gathered after God's wrath has completed, because it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God, which we are not appointed to suffer and that because Jesus already satisfied it for every believer.

 

[DavidTree]

do we think the number seven is a literal count in revelation ? Or is it a seal of some sort to identify what’s complete and true ? And possibly points to Christ Jesus ?

“And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,”
‭‭Jude‬ ‭1:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: ( Hebrews 4:12) and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.( Matthew 17:2)

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:12, 16, 20‬ ‭

“And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:1, 5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭8:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭10:3, 7-8‬ ‭KJV‬

“And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Getting long but it Seems like it all connects and reveals someone or something or both , and could maybe be not a literal count of seven of anything

When you get the chance, see what the total of 'seven' shows up in Revelation and a net total when you deduct for redundancy where 'seven' is applied to the same item/subject.