Documentary—7 Pretrib Problems and the Prewrath Rapture

[TheDivineWatermark]

Those being addressed by Paul were troubled about their deceased loved ones. Not about their own skins.
Any other reading takes the exhortation to comfort each other out of context.
Paul wrote in a nutshell-
"Do not grieve about your deceased loved ones. The Lord will raise them before you at his return"
1 Thes 4:

Personally, I do not believe 1Th4's mention of "comfort" is the applicable one (to what was being discussed earlier in the thread, page 2); when it comes to "rapture" passages and the "comfort" word, one should look more to the following examples:

--used in 1 Thessalonians 5:11 (context: vv.8-11--see my previous posts on this section; noting also the "G4862 - WITH [UNIONed-with]" word; noting again also the phrase "[putting on... for an helmet] the HOPE of salvation" which in Thessalonians CONTEXTS refers to "an eschatological salvation," i.e. yet another term for "our Rapture");

--used in 2 Thessalonians 2:17 (in the CONTEXT where Paul is reiterating the SEQUENCE--how the ONE thing ["our Rapture / our episynagoges unto Him" / "the departure FIRST"] "fits" IN RELATION TO the OTHER thing ["the day of the Lord" time-period of JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth], that is, how these TWO items "fit" TIME-WISE / SEQUENCE-WISE); Also then (besides the aforementioned), Paul, in chpts 1&2 of 2Th, is telling of the TWO CONTRASTING "beliefs" ppl WILL be coming to, FOLLOWING "our Rapture"




... so these TWO passages (1Th5:8-11 and 2Th2:17) ARE in the context of "our Rapture" event (and do not speak merely of "the dead in Christ" we're to "comfort" each other about)

 

[ewq1938]

First of all, are you saying you believe "the tribulation" lasts ONLY "TEN DAYS"?? lol

It does for some. You think what's written in any of those letters applies to all so you have to admit church will suffer some tribulation. My only intent here is to prove church will suffer tribulation before being raptured.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

My only intent here is to prove church will suffer tribulation before being raptured.

No "pre-tribber" I know disagrees with such a sentence

(which, as I see it, is not the same thing as saying, we're therefore definitely raptured "post-trib" / AFTER the "7 yrs")...





Again... the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY has experienced "persecutionS and tribulationS" and "suffering" ALL THROUGHOUT its near-2000-yr existence on this earth, since the first century... this is nothing new, or that we are awaiting IN ORDER TO EXPERIENCE IT in the "7 yr period"

 

[ewq1938]

No "pre-tribber" I know disagrees with such a sentence

(which, as I see it, is not the same thing as saying, we're therefore definitely raptured "post-trib" / AFTER the "7 yrs")...

To be more specific, since you believe the other letter pertained to end times rapture then the suffering tribulation should also be understood as an end times tribulation prior to rapture which is more in line with post than pre-trib.

And added to all of that:

John 16:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them [tereo ek] from the evil one.

Jesus did not pray that God would take people out of this world to keep them from the evil one. That means Jesus does not approve of rapturing people out of this world to protect them from the evil one.

 

[JTB]

Believers in the Christ will be covered from the wrath of God; a type and shadow of this protection is recorded in Exodus when the Hebrews were marked by lamb's blood as the angel of death roamed the streets.

The culmination of the age will not be marked by those in Christ in full retreat from the incursion of the enemy. We have nothing to fear. I think what rattles the denominations so much is that they do not know protection, preservation, and abundant life apart from the world's systems (the systems of the Kosmos). Prominent Evangelical and Charismatic preachers are taking advantage of this fear by selling buckets of MRE's to their flock. God will repay them for the harm they cause to the children.

That's all I have to say about this topic.

God's people had to do something to receive His protection. The Hebrews had to mark their doors. Noah had to build a boat. Why should we believe we'll get a free pass?

 

[GaryA]

I know you like to rib us.

Occasionally, while "making a point", I try to throw something "lighthearted" in there with it - to keep y'all reminded that there are no "personal hard feelings" intended (at all).

Discussion is good - "personal hard feelings" are not.

Debate is okay sometimes - argument rarely is.

But let the readers note (again), Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 together are making the point that the "future" aspects of the book are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (NOT unfold over the course of some near-2000 years, AS "the things WHICH ARE" can be said of them--because of THEM it is NOT said THEY are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]," by contrast!)

Any viewpoint that disregards what 1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 (together) are conveying, is FLAWED.

Am I going to have to show you - again - why this is not how it is saying what it is saying???

 

[DavidTree]

God's people had to do something to receive His protection. The Hebrews had to mark their doors. Noah had to build a boat. Why should we believe we'll get a free pass?

This passage of Scripture is repeated twice in Proverbs
A prudent man foresees evil and hides himself, But the simple pass on and are punished. - Proverbs 22:3
A prudent man foresees evil and hides himself; The simple pass on and are punished. - Proverbs 27:12

We see this application with Noah - God told him judgment was coming and told him how to escape it - build the Ark.
We see it, as you mentioned with Moses/Israel and the Blood of the Lamb on the door posts and lintel.
We see this again when the Angel warned Joseph in a dream to flee to Egypt with Mary and the young child Jesus.
The Lord Jesus tells those in Israel to flee to the mountains in the Day of Jacob's Trouble.

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30: 5-6

Notice here, if we head God's word, it becomes protection for us, especially the warnings.

 

[rayzor]

God's people had to do something to receive His protection. The Hebrews had to mark their doors. Noah had to build a boat. Why should we believe we'll get a free pass?

look at [rev 9:4 & ezek9:4]

 

[GaryA]

The Lord Jesus tells those in Israel to flee to the mountains in the Day of Jacob's Trouble.

What passage of scripture are you thinking of here?

Perhaps you mean 'valley'?

Jacob's trouble is Armageddon.

Your statement above sounds more like the events of circa 70 A.D.

 

[DavidTree]

I will say this for you---
You put a lot of time and effort into denying the simple truth of Scripture.

This is how false teachers, false prophets and false apostles lure and deceive both themselves and those who follow them.
Man's intellect becomes an idol, a show and a display to mesmerize their audience - magicians do this with their hands, whereas intellectuals do it with words.

NEVER forget this:
God's Word is a Children's Book, written for His Children.
"But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy." James 3: 17

Jesus said, “Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 18:3

 

[DavidTree]

What passage of scripture are you thinking of here?

Perhaps you mean 'valley'?

Jacob's trouble is Armageddon.

Your statement above sounds more like the events of circa 70 A.D.

But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near.
Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city
Luke 21: 21-22
Yes, this has already occured and will take place again.

 

[GaryA]

But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near.
Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city
Luke 21: 21-22
Yes, this has already occured and will take place again.

I wouldn't suggest that the same identical thing will occur again.

Armageddon is quite different than the events of circa 70 A.D.

 

[DavidTree]

I wouldn't suggest that the same identical thing will occur again.

Armageddon is quite different than the events of circa 70 A.D.

Yes, but the fleeing part is the same - run for your life...........
Zechariah 13 - Two thirds will perish but the Lord will bring a Third through and refine them by FIRE.........

 

[rayzor]

yea the heathen nation fall asleep and have to be woke up!4 that battle i think

 

[DavidTree]

yea the heathen nation fall asleep and have to be woke up!4 that battle i think

The waking has begun.

Behold, a day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided in your presence. For I will gather all the nations for battle against Jerusalem, and the city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women ravished. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.

Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half the mountain moving to the north and half to the south. You will flee by My mountain valley, for it will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with Him.

 

[GaryA]

The waking has begun.

Well - for me - the sleeping is about to begin...

(bed time)

"Later..."

 

[Marilyn]

So where does His Body/His Church/His Elect get 'taken up' (raptured)?

Hi David,

Interesting question. Here is a couple of scriptures that leads us to the timing of WHEN.

God `may send Jesus Christ who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive UNTIL the times of restoration of all things, of which God has spoken about by the mouth of all His holy prophets.` (Acts 3: 20 & 21)

Christ `gave ....(ministries) ...TILL we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the statue of the fullness of Christ.` (Eph. 4: 13)

 

[Marilyn]

However reading again I see you say `WHERE. So .....

The Body of Christ gets taken up from all over the world to the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. The Gk, word for `meet` is `Apantesis,` which is only used on three occasions in the New Testament each with the connotation of escorting a person to their destination. Jesus will soon be moving to a new destination - His own Throne, and the Church will escort Him.

`We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.`

 

[Ahwatukee]

However reading again I see you say `WHERE. So .....

The Body of Christ gets taken up from all over the world to the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. The Gk, word for `meet` is `Apantesis,` which is only used on three occasions in the New Testament each with the connotation of escorting a person to their destination. Jesus will soon be moving to a new destination - His own Throne, and the Church will escort Him.

`We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.`

Hello Marilyn,

If you are saying that we are meeting the Lord in the air and then escorting Him somewhere else other than back to heaven, then I would have to wholeheartedly disagree. When the Lord appears He will fulfill His promise in John 14:1-3. He said that He was going to the Father's house to prepare places for us and that He would come back to get us and take us back there, so that where He is we may be also, which would be the Father's house. It would make no sense for the Lord to go and prepare places for us and then not take us there.

John 14:1-3 and 1 Thessalonians go hand-in-hand, with 1 Thessalonians being the detailed account of His returning to get us. It is Jesus who will be escorting His church back to the Father's house.

 

[Aaron56]

God's people had to do something to receive His protection. The Hebrews had to mark their doors. Noah had to build a boat. Why should we believe we'll get a free pass?

Our pass isn’t free.