Documentary—7 Pretrib Problems and the Prewrath Rapture

[TheDivineWatermark]

If I read correctly, I think what he is saying is that it's possible to test the plausibility of a pre-trib rapture by cross-examining it within the context of the pass of 2 Thess. 2.

If apostasia means a departure (rapture) of the church then the way the sentence reads would literally be something like "the departure will not occur until the departure occurs." This adds nothing of value to Paul's thesis, is redundant, and creates a contradiction later in the chapter.

You are doing the same thing the other poster is doing (inserting the word "rapture" into two places instead of simply replacing the word "apostasia" with the word "rapture [/departure]"--i.e. inserting the word "rapture" ONCE).

IOW, it is YOU who is being "redundant," because the sentence would not read as you suggest it would (if one merely replaces the word "apostasia" [used ONE TIME here!] with the word "rapture [/departure]"--you are not doing that).



____________

I recall I addressed the same OP video awhile back, and I had noticed then that the video contains this same "misapplication" (doubling the word "rapture" in verse 3, instead of simply replacing "apostasia" with the word "rapture [/departure], in order to make it SEEM completely "nonsensical," but is not at all accurate to the way it is actually being presented--WHY??)


The OP video is the same video (Post #390 just prior to the posts at the following links) I responded to in a different thread, back in December:

Post #391 - https://christianchat.com/threads/t...lessed-hope-of-the-saints.195611/post-4448305

Post #392 - https://christianchat.com/threads/t...lessed-hope-of-the-saints.195611/post-4448308


[...also in further posts in that thread... including Post #563 (page 29)...]

 

[ResidentAlien]

^ The nonsensical (being conveyed) is in your own mind, though, because the sentence you presented, "the rapture cannot come unless the rapture comes first" is not what the sentence would be conveying (provided the word "departure [i.e. rapture]" is used in place of "apostasia," as was presented).

You are inserting the word "rapture" twice, where only once is appropriate (given the substitution of the word "rapture [/i.e. departure]" in place of "apostasia"), in this explanation. I am unsure why you do this.

It's not rocket science; you're making it way more complicated than it is. If you still don't get it, further explanation would do no good.

 

[rayzor]

1 even with rocket science.It like eating a elephant or building a house 1 bite at a time 1 board at a time.2 Is that person just being a rascal?

 

[awelight]

This is an excellent documentary on the rapture. It's a little long (2 hours 16 min.), but it's worth watching. It's a very professional production with graphics and illustrations throughout. It takes the pre-wrath position and does a very thorough job of comparing that with pre-trib. Enjoy!

A true believer knows, that Scripture and the guidance of the Holy Spirit is sufficient to come to the Truth of any Theological subject. One might find a program interesting but should be very, very, cautious when approaching such. These kind of programs: The Ten Commandments, King of kings and Left Behind, etc..., can easily introduce error into ones thinking. They are not Scripture!!!

This program at best, is a humanistic endeavor to explain a Theological Doctrine. If one does not believe in a Pre-Trib. Rapture, then this program may give them some comfort but unfortunately, it reinforces the error in that same believer's mind. The Left Behind series, portrayed the day of the Rapture as car crashes and planes falling out of the sky. I mean really!!! Does any true believer, think that the mysterious and secret work of the Lord, when He Raptures the last remnant of the Church, is going to cause such a public spectacle? Personally, I think the number of TRUE believers, still alive, at the time of the Rapture will simply leave the unbelieving world with a mystery.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ [ @ResidentAlien 's Post #142] I agree it's not rocket science.

Those who insert "rapture" TWICE (to explain what we're pointing out) are twisting what it is we are conveying about the word "apostasia" (v.3)...

Why do this?



Verse 1 - speaks of the Subject of "our Rapture" event, when WE go to meet the Lord IN THE AIR (and NO ONE ELSE!)

Verse 2 [the Subject the False Conveyors were "purporting"] was NOT THAT ^ -- but Paul cautioning them not to be persuaded by anyone trying to convince them "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT INDICATIVE]"

Verse 3 - Paul saying, it's NOT. That earthly time period of judgments (from v.2!) unfolding (starting at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" like Paul said in 1Th5:1-3--the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period--which Jesus spoke of in Matt24:4 and which is parallel to SEAL #1 at the START of the "7-yrs") "will NOT be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE [v.1's Subject (i.e. our Rapture)] *FIRST*..."



(note: "the departure" is put in place of the phrase "he apostasia"... ONE PLACE [not TWICE])

 

[ResidentAlien]

A true believer knows, that Scripture and the guidance of the Holy Spirit is sufficient to come to the Truth of any Theological subject. One might find a program interesting but should be very, very, cautious when approaching such. These kind of programs: The Ten Commandments, King of kings and Left Behind, etc..., can easily introduce error into ones thinking. They are not Scripture!!!

This program at best, is a humanistic endeavor to explain a Theological Doctrine. If one does not believe in a Pre-Trib. Rapture, then this program may give them some comfort but unfortunately, it reinforces the error in that same believer's mind. The Left Behind series, portrayed the day of the Rapture as car crashes and planes falling out of the sky. I mean really!!! Does any true believer, think that the mysterious and secret work of the Lord, when He Raptures the last remnant of the Church, is going to cause such a public spectacle? Personally, I think the number of TRUE believers, still alive, at the time of the Rapture will simply leave the unbelieving world with a mystery.

Are you seriously trying to compare the documentary to The Ten Commandments or Left Behind??? When did a serious study of the scriptures become a "humanistic endeavor?"

Tell me then, what is your view of the rapture after studying the theology?

 

[ResidentAlien]

^ [ @ResidentAlien 's Post #142] I agree it's not rocket science.

Those who insert "rapture" TWICE (to explain what we're pointing out) are twisting what it is we are conveying about the word "apostasia" (v.3)...

Why do this?



Verse 1 - speaks of the Subject of "our Rapture" event, when WE go to meet the Lord IN THE AIR (and NO ONE ELSE!)

Verse 2 [the Subject the False Conveyors were "purporting"] was NOT THAT ^ -- but Paul cautioning them not to be persuaded by anyone trying to convince them "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT INDICATIVE]"

Verse 3 - Paul saying, it's NOT. That earthly time period of judgments (from v.2!) unfolding (starting at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" like Paul said in 1Th5:1-3--the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period--which Jesus spoke of in Matt24:4 and which is parallel to SEAL #1 at the START of the "7-yrs") "will NOT be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE [v.1's Subject (i.e. our Rapture)] *FIRST*..."



(note: "the departure" is put in place of the phrase "he apostasia"... ONE PLACE [not TWICE])

Whatever.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Show us where the sentence would have the word "rapture" (or "departure") TWICE.

It doesn't.



You are simply mindlessly repeating the ruse from the OP video, rather than presenting any real "study" on the matter.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"the rapture cannot come unless the rapture comes first"--hogwash!

It would not say that at all.

 

[awelight]

Are you seriously trying to compare the documentary to The Ten Commandments or Left Behind??? When did a serious study of the scriptures become a "humanistic endeavor?"

Tell me then, what is your view of the rapture after studying the theology?

A serious study of the Scriptures is not found in a documentary. It is found only in the Bible.

To answer your question, the Scriptures teach a Pre-Tribulation "taking up" of the Assembly before the Great Tribulation's - 7 years begin. The last of the Gentiles, that are going to comprise the Universal Assembly, that Christ is building, will have come in. Like the Arc of Noah's day, God will shut the door and the completed Assembly will ride high above the Tempest in the Heavens.

The Covenant Lord of Israel, is now dealing with the nation of Israel, in her final redemption. This takes place, concurrent with the rise of the Anti-Christ and God's pouring out His Wrath. This is why the focus of Scripture returns to Israel during this time. The Assembly of Christ is not even mentioned during these days. It is now the Bride.

 

[ResidentAlien]

^ Show us where the sentence would have the word "rapture" (or "departure") TWICE.

It doesn't.



You are simply mindlessly repeating the ruse from the OP video, rather than presenting any real "study" on the matter.

Okay, listen, I'm not saying it says rapture twice; I'm with you, it only talks about the rapture once, in v. 1. I'm just showing what pre-tribbers say it says. If you don't get that, then I don't know what I can say that will you help you.

 

[ResidentAlien]

To answer your question, the Scriptures teach a Pre-Tribulation "taking up" of the Assembly before the Great Tribulation's - 7 years begin.

That's what I figured. Don't watch the documentary folks, nothing to see here.

 

[awelight]

That's what I figured. Don't watch the documentary folks, nothing to see here.

One of those typical short, un-useful, replies that says nothing and teaches nothing. Surely you can do better.

 

[ResidentAlien]

One of those typical short, un-useful, replies that says nothing and teaches nothing. Surely you can do better.

Nope, sorry I can't.

 

[Runningman]

A serious study of the Scriptures is not found in a documentary. It is found only in the Bible.

To answer your question, the Scriptures teach a Pre-Tribulation "taking up" of the Assembly before the Great Tribulation's - 7 years begin. The last of the Gentiles, that are going to comprise the Universal Assembly, that Christ is building, will have come in. Like the Arc of Noah's day, God will shut the door and the completed Assembly will ride high above the Tempest in the Heavens.

The Covenant Lord of Israel, is now dealing with the nation of Israel, in her final redemption. This takes place, concurrent with the rise of the Anti-Christ and God's pouring out His Wrath. This is why the focus of Scripture returns to Israel during this time. The Assembly of Christ is not even mentioned during these days. It is now the Bride.

Which verse or verses say Christ returns before the great tribulation to rapture the church?

No personal opinions, commentary, or sources besides the Bible please. Show me the verses that any reader can look at and see there is a pre-trib rapture.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Pre-tribbers assert the departure of the church occurs when Jesus returns,

No.

Again, the word "RETURN" (re: Jesus) is biblically only used of His Second Coming to the earth (at Rev19).

Pre-tribbers are NOT suggesting this (that "our Rapture" occurs at that time), as you suggest.




[again... see Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347]!]

before the great tribulation,

Not exactly.

"the GREAT tribulation" is only the second half of the 7 years, so pre-tribbers are saying, EVEN EARLIER than THAT point.

and before the man of sin is revealed.

Yes.

And he is "revealed" at the START of the 7 yrs (at the ARRIVAL of the DOTL time period, aka at SEAL #1 parallel the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 / Matt24:4/Mk13:5]"), he is not "revealed" at the MID-point.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 stands in contradiction to a pre-tribulation return of Christ. Jesus returns after the man of sin (that Wicked) is revealed, meaning that the great tribulation already happened.

Verse 8's ^ "the MANIFESTATION of His presence/parousia" (when "EVERY EYE shall SEE Him") is not the same moment as v.1's "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" (i.e. "IN THE AIR"--when ONLY WE--the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY--will be in His "presence" THERE, and NO ONE ELSE!)

Thus, there is absolutely NO "contradiction here!




The earthly-located time-period known as "the DOTL" (very lengthy and involving MUCH that will transpire within it) ARRIVES at the SAME MOMENT that the "whose COMING [/ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia" (v.9a) of the "man of sin" does (and that is at the START of the "7 yrs" [i.e. Seal #1, aka the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3, etc]") not at its END)

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

the phrase here is: "the MANIFESTATION of His presence/parousia"



[note: NONE of our viewpoints is saying that the "man of sin" ARRIVES at the moment he is DESTROYED ]

 

[awelight]

Which verse or verses say Christ returns before the great tribulation to rapture the church?

No personal opinions, commentary, or sources besides the Bible please. Show me the verses that any reader can look at and see there is a pre-trib rapture.

I am not going to play that game. All those opposed to a subject, want to play the verse game, as if nothing can be learned from the overall study of Scripture from Gen. 1:1 to Rev. 22:21. It is a fools game.

Example: Show me a verse that says there is a Trinity are that God is Triune. There is none. However, in overall study, one learns God is identified in three persons.

Show me a verse that teaches Christ, is - fully God and fully man. The God-man. There isn't one but again, this ascertained from a complete study of Scripture.

 

[HisKid]

Nope, sorry I can't.

You should change your tag line.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[ @ResidentAlien 's Post #151] "I'm just showing what pre-tribbers say it says"--RA


No, you are not.



You are placing the word "rapture" in the verse into TWO DISTINCT PLACES (that "pre-tribbers" are NOT doing).

Why are you?




Is it because the guy in the OP video expressed such a sentence (that it would supposedly be saying), perhaps??




The text would not be saying "the rapture cannot come unless the rapture comes first," as you (and the OP vid) suggest... and (be assurred) "pre-tribbers" are NOT saying re: this text, at all.

Why do you say they/we do??

(It is you... and the OP vid... who are using the word "rapture" TWICE in this verse--that is wholly incorrect, provided one replaces the word "rapture [/departure]" where "apostasia" is used; PAUL is supplying how the ONE thing is related to the OTHER DISTINCT thing, sequentially--ONE THING *FIRST*)

 

[ResidentAlien]

Bye Watermark, got better things to do.