Saved by Water

[Wansvic]

Many times in his encounters with people Jesus said ' your sins are forgiven ...go and sin no more" was this not forgiveness of sin by the soon to be redeemer or was it just words?

There is no question Jesus forgave sin while here in bodily form. My point is that remission of sin for the NT believer is made available through obedience to the command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 2:38, 22:16)

 

[Wansvic]

There is 100+ verses in the Bible regarding baptism. The new age religion teaching that baptism is not required is new...since the 1960's. Research has not found reference to that interpretation anywhere prior to the 1960's...why?

I didn't realize when the actual distortion about the truth of water baptism started. I am very interested in taking a look at some of the research sources if you would point me in the right direction. Thanks!

 

[FreeGrace2]

There is no question Jesus forgave sin while here in bodily form. My point is that remission of sin for the NT believer is made available through obedience to the command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 2:38, 22:16)

In both verses, the persons told to be baptized were already saved. The context proves it.

They were NOT saved by water baptism.

 

[SophieT]

What does that mean?

it means shaking my head as in you gotta do better than that. just like this:

 

[Wansvic]

Hey, if you want to believe that water will save you, who am I to stop you? Knock yourself out.
.

Why not address the scripture presented?

Also, as I have said many times, water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus is one essential part of the rebirth experience. Without the remission of one's personal sins there is no hope of gaining entrance into the kingdom of God.

 

[SophieT]

I just have to reiterate what Sophie said...how do you put up with your own bull doo doo? Do you think that your "WOW, that's powerful" comes off as genuine? Think again. It's pathetic at this point.

.

.

oh

so are we friends now? LOL! maybe acquaintances? how 'bout no longer on a hit list?

I don't like wows either. very self righteous

 

[SophieT]

Yep.. lol I changed the order for replies based on what stood out the most.

WOW that's powerful. And we know they didn't like hearing stuff like that...Stuff like "even though you believe to some degree, there is more that you need to submit to if you want to escape damnation". (John 8:30-47). Verse 47 is especially interesting because to those whom the bible in verse 31 describes as "those Jews that believed on him" Jesus says "ye are not of God", and in verse 44 "Ye are of your father the devil".

I'm sure you'll also appreciate that this verse about "who you really belong to" is in a chapter highlighting the importance of baptism

Romans 6:16 KJV​

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"​

I notice that it doesn't state whether he did or didn't baptize them. Plus, if he only said that when MANY of that type were gathered together, that implies that he'd already allowed a few others to pass through. So I'm still of the opinion that he would have gone ahead and baptized them. I THINK he's saying "I can wash you, but if internally you are still a swine, you'll go right back to the behavior of a swine". It seems to me that he is trying very hard to make it very clear that words and thoughts of belief weren't going to be enough if their behavior didn't change.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Matt 3:7-9
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

hey you know, if you want a private convo, take it to pm

but of course you do not really want that

so you make your gossip public. you might need some extra water to wash all that off

I think you are a bad influence on Wansvic.....he/she was not this catty before you came along

 

[Wansvic]

well we know, but just to refresh people's memories

John the Baptist, the cousin of Jesus (by design no doubt) was the FORERUNNER of Jesus

John himself explained it this way:

11I baptize you with water for repentance, but after me will come One more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
12His winnowing fork is in His hand to clear His threshing floor and to gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 3

totally explained for those with the ears and the heart to receive it

let's remember, how does a person receive the gospel?

8But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.

there is nothing to interpret, that is not hard to understand, but for some...the seed falls on hard ground or the birds carry it away and it seems that no matter how many times you try to harness the ox to the wheel and make it go around and around and around with nothing else to do but think, the creature just wants to eat something

that was a mixed metaphor. no one should take offense. I tend to think in pictures

Consider that John makes the clarification between the two baptisms. He does not say one replaced the other.

Also, the scriptures in Romans do not contradict the gospel message initially presented by Peter. If people believe the message their faith will be perfected through obedience to it's associated commands. (James 2:22) In addition to that, people must confess Jesus is Lord to others in order to be saved. Receiving one's spiritual rebirth does not eliminate the responsibility to share the gospel with others.

 

[JBTN]

Jesus' statement in Luke 24:47 lines up perfectly with the initial instructions given by Peter in Acts 2:38. People were told they must; Repent, and afterward be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus FOR the remission of sin.

The ESV translation you quote distorts what Jesus actually said. Upon examination of the verses below it is obvious that the KJV shows repentance and forgiveness of sin as separate processes. Whereas the ESV implies repentance produces the other in and of itself.


"And that repentance AND remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." Luke 24:47
KJV

"And that repentance FOR the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem." Luke 24:47 ESV

Several of the earliest manuscripts say “metanoia eis aphesin hamartion” or a change of mind ( repentance ) into/for forgiveness of sins. Kai or “and” appears in later manuscripts.

In Luke 24 Jesus opens the minds of the apostles to understand what was written in the prophets about him. Later in Acts 10 Peter tells us directly how he understood this:

“To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.””
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:43‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/act.10.43.ESV

Luke 24:47 and Acts 10:43 agree perfectly. When your mind changes from not believing or not knowing to believing you have had the change of mind Luke 24:47 talks about. That change of mind results in results in the person being placed into the new covenant or into forgiveness of sins. This is where Jesus blood was poured out:

“for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭26:28‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/mat.26.28.ESV

Here for the forgiveness of sins is eis aphesin hamartion or into/for the forgiveness of sins.

 

[Wansvic]

John preached bring forth fruits of repentance with the ritualistic form of OT cleansing. Remember his father served in the Temple,that is what he knew. He was called as the fore runner to herald that NOW is the time of the Messiah's coming.

When the word is heard,the Spirit pricks hearts to the opportunity that NOW has the Messiah knocked upon the door of your heart.

Jesus is the ONLY way to be saved,ONLY way! Then he must be obeyed. If he thought the ritual of baptism was ok to follow fulfilling the OT cleansing then WHO AM I to rebuke it?

Again I stress ONLY JESUS SHED BLOOD CAN FORGIVE SIN, bc he is God in the flesh. By his death,burial and resurrection we have forgiveness. Baptism is ONLY a symbol of following him coming from the water stating I'm washed,cleansed and made free of sin.

Salvation comes from us seeing what God sees about us then repenting. Then the blood is applied to the doorpost of our hearts and we are redeemed.

I will say if people think WATER saves they need to go back to the cross!

There is no remission of sin in water baptism without the cross.

God provided the way of salvation and it begins with the spiritual rebirth that includes the shed blood of Jesus, the removal of personal sin through obedience to God's command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, and receiving the infilling of the Holy Ghost. Even though many do not teach this. It is what the bible teaches.

 

[Wansvic]

The only foundation is Jesus Christ!
Nothing else is needed but to build upon that foundation we must obey the word when the commandments are given.

Notice what the writer of Hebrews has to say about the foundational components:


"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." Heb 6:1-2 KJV

 

[Wansvic]

When the Bible says the devil "deceives the whole world" and "leads the whole world astray", it isn't kidding!!

You mention the bible says that the devil deceives and leads the whole world astray.
So who exactly do you believe are in the majority?

 

[Wansvic]

Kelby, most, if not all, born-again believers have been baptized. We know the water doesn't actually save us but we are baptized because we are called to do so. Sooooooooooooo, what do you make of that?

.

According to Jesus, he who BELIEVES and is baptized shall be saved. Getting water baptized without believing one's sins are being remitted is to reject the very word/counsel of God. Notice what Jesus said about it, he who believeth not is damned already. Mark 16:15-16. Believing the gospel message pertains to every aspect presented. To choose to take away any part of it is to reject it in it's entirety.

 

[Wansvic]

Really? What about all those people who were baptized before Jesus was crucified? A waste of water?

John introduced the concept of the baptism of repentance for the remission of sin. He was in fact prophesying through word and action what would later become a reality for the NT believer after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. (Acts 2:38, 22:16)

 

[Wansvic]

First, salvation is permanent. Jesus made that clear. In John 5:24, He made the point that those who believe possess eternal life. Then, in John 10:28 He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Therefore, from the moment one puts their faith in Christ for salvation, they possess eternal life and shall never perish.

Second, the reason the crowd in Matt 7:21-23 was rejected was that they were trusting in what THEY DID for entering the kingdom rather than trusting in what CHRIST DID for them. They thought they could earn a place in heaven. They will be sadly mistaken at the Great White Throne judgment.

Thought the following might be of interest to you.

After making the statement in Matt. 7:23, Jesus goes on to point out what makes one wise or foolish. It is all about building without a foundation. The writer of Hebrews provides an outline of what is foundational:

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." Heb. 6:1-2
KJV

 

[SophieT]

Consider that John makes the clarification between the two baptisms. He does not say one replaced the other.

Also, the scriptures in Romans do not contradict the gospel message initially presented by Peter. If people believe the message their faith will be perfected through obedience to it's associated commands. (James 2:22) In addition to that, people must confess Jesus is Lord to others in order to be saved. Receiving one's spiritual rebirth does not eliminate the responsibility to share the gospel with others.

right

there is absolutely no difference at all between being immersed in water and being filled with the Holy Spirit...or power from on high to be a witness for our risen Lord Jesus Christ

I think you might have stayed under the water too long

 

[Wansvic]

First, there is no such thing as an "infilling of the Holy Spirit". There is an indwelling and there is the filling, which is different. Which did you mean by the conflated word that you used?

Second, NO believer from Adam on received the Holy Spirit upon believing in the Messiah, UNTIL the Day of Pentecost. It's all in Acts 2. Initially, only Jews received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit upon faith in Christ immediately. In Acts 8 Gentiles had hands laid on them after they believed in order to receive the Holy Spirit.

But in Acts 10, Cornelius and family/friends received the Spirit when they believed. But then, in Acts 19, Paul found 12 disciples who didn't receive the Holy Spirit until Paul laid his hands on them.

But, by the time Paul wrote to the Galatians, which is estimated to be between 49-55 AD, he wrote this:
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

If anyone still needed hands laid on them before receiving the Spirit by the time Paul wrote that, he would have been wrong to write what he did.

You really should take the time to read the posts before responding.

 

[Wansvic]

I notice that it doesn't state whether he did or didn't baptize them. Plus, if he only said that when MANY of that type were gathered together, that implies that he'd already allowed a few others to pass through. So I'm still of the opinion that he would have gone ahead and baptized them. I THINK he's saying "I can wash you, but if internally you are still a swine, you'll go right back to the behavior of a swine". It seems to me that he is trying very hard to make it very clear that words and thoughts of belief weren't going to be enough if their behavior didn't change.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Matt 3:7-9
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

I respectfully disagree that John would have baptized those unwilling to repent. Jesus said many times that without repentance people perish.

The following scriptures speak to John's baptism specifically being the baptism of repentance for the remission of sin:
Mark 1:4
Luke 3:3
Acts 13:24
Acts 19:4

 

[Wansvic]

If it isn't painfully clear enough to you at this point, your tag-team with Wansvic has failed.

Instead of casting insults you may want to spend some time in prayer and study the scriptures presented.

 

[Wansvic]

You should take your show on the road. It is definitely hellyweird bound.

I think it is rather interesting that those presented with the truth respond with such unbecoming behavior. I guess it shouldn't be surprising since people reacted the same way when truth was presented back in biblical times.