the standard of righteousness

[Aaron56]

My own thoughts are that the Twelve deserved special consideration due to the fact Jesus specifically called them as the beginning ministry in Israel and extending outwards. They were specially trained and lived with Jesus so that what they reported Jesus said was accurate and reliable.

It is the same courtesy a court would give an eyewitness to a crime. There may be other witnesses, but there are "special witnesses," who have a bit more clout with the court.

This is what the Twelve were, representing Jesus' original grouping. But he certainly sent out more than just these twelve! He sent out 70 others, as well, although I don't know that we can call them "apostles."

But the term "apostle" does have a more generic, though important, application. That office remained very high, whoever had it applied to them.

And so, men, like James, the brother of Jesus, Paul, Barnabas, and others were given that dignity, due to their close association with Jesus' original plan of extending the Gospel out into the world. They were specially chosen because of their special proximity to apostolic teaching and to Jesus himself, whether personally or by revelation.

I think it's terrible to read into the "lottery" system, used to replace Judas, a false methodology that was not accepted by God. In fact, the very apostles who we are giving respect to were the very ones who accepted Matthias as one of their own!

It is terrible to try to claim Paul was the real replacement for Judas among the Twelve when nobody in the Scriptures ever said that! It is equally terrible to deny Barnabas a place among the apostles. In fact there are a number of candidates for "apostle" in the NT, and we should just accept Scripture as it is, rather than try to read malfeasance into the process.

Agreed.

 

[Aaron56]

Do you not understand that’s what written in heaven defines what is one earth ? Those names weren’t written yesterday were they ? Those names were written from thhis time and Jesus came to reveal them

“They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭48:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when Jesus came and chose only 12 men on earth and kept the number at 12 until he cut out Judas before he died and rose leaving 11

and then Peter speaks of the necessary to ad another to make 12 again . Your argument is that 12 isn’t important even though in eternity there are exactly 12 names written on heaven ? That doesn’t hold water To you guys really ?

let me just ask any of you a question and if you can answer it I think you may see my point

what are these 12 names ?

“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬
with the understanding and everything you have what are those 12 names written as apostles of Jesus on heaven ?

before you explain it’s not really twelve and it’s a figure notice there’s are only 12 tribes also and 12 names so it’s not a figure so who can name the twelve apostles written in heaven ? Do that and you will see at least my position and then notice how 12 men are distinctly chosen in a certain way by a certain Lord of all

then consider that anything Jesus establishes is why it’s written in eternity

I’ll wait for someone to answer the very simple question whomis named the twelve apostles in the kingdom of heaven ???

You're misreading my posts.

12 was vital to fill up the full number of legal witnesses required to validate what Peter preached to crowd.

Of those witnesses, at that day and occasion, there were only 12. And all of them could attest to the facts that Peter declared. These were the first witnesses (or "martyrs"), with a binding testimony in the earth that certified Jesus as the Messiah, the Lamb whom God sent.

Very important. And so their names are on the foundations.

 

[Aaron56]

oh so apostles aren’t the ones he sent to all the world like the twelve ?

Of course they were, but be careful with the word "world" as I'm sure no apostle of the Lamb made it to Canada. World would have been the surrounding areas. BUT apostles don't just traverse the countryside on whims, they are led by the Spirit. Paul, for example, was forbidden by the Holy Spirit to go to Asia. By this we can discern that Paul understood being led by the Spirit in his travels. Being sent "into the world" did not give him a free pass to go anywhere he wanted.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1, 9-10, 12, 14‬ ‭

You're misreading my posts.

12 was vital to fill up the full number of legal witnesses required to validate what Peter preached to crowd.

Of those witnesses, at that day and occasion, there were only 12. And all of them could attest to the facts that Peter declared. These were the first witnesses (or "martyrs"), with a binding testimony in the earth that certified Jesus as the Messiah, the Lamb whom God sent.

Very important. And so their names are on the foundations.

I think you are misreading mine also no legal witnesses and what not is something you and randy have concluded the scripture doesn’t bear that out at all that’s why you can’t say it with scripture of it was about legal witnesses , why are they exalted upon thrones as judges ? Of Israel’s twelve tribes ?

can you consider brother that they established the New Testament scripture and that is the apostles witness even today ? That’s my position the scripture isn’t going to be added to or taken away thier witness is in scripture after they all does scripture stopped

you are lowering the twelve making then mere legal witnesses but the word says they are exclusive chosen vessels to spread the fospem into the world and you know what ? That’s why thier witnesses are why we have the Bible to believe in so they accomplished just what Jesus said they would they took the small mustard seed and spread it into the earth and it’s now a tree that we come to for sustenance

those twelve foundations aren’t added to or taken away they established the New Testament scripture just as Israel’s children established the ot scripture 12 tribes and twelv apostles

just like the ot God spoke everything he wanted to say and then all of it came to pass and Jesus came forth as the final promise of the prophets

now Jesus and the apostles established the New Testament scripture and it is being fulfilled until the final promise of his return

The “ legal witness” is what is written in heaven and on earth

but it honestly doesn’t seem to be worth continuing it doesn’t affect anything to look at it as of the apostles aren’t twelve as Jesus set forth and then seemed pretty important in prophecy tompeter to keep the number at 12 and then knowing Jesus chose all 12 and then after they all passed into the kingdom

scripture stopped but thier witnesses is the New Testament we have

there is no one today who should be parting from the apostles witness of the kingdom so I suppose if someone sticks to scripture that the apostles witnesses in the world through the New Testament scripture that could be somehow interpreted as they are now a sun apostle or hold the earthly title of apostle in thier eyes and others

but I believe the twelve apostles are in heaven now waiting for those who hear and believe thier witness to repent and follow Christ into the kingdom

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Of course they were, but be careful with the word "world" as I'm sure no apostle of the Lamb made it to Canada. World would have been the surrounding areas. BUT apostles don't just traverse the countryside on whims, they are led by the Spirit. Paul, for example, was forbidden by the Holy Spirit to go to Asia. By this we can discern that Paul understood being led by the Spirit in his travels. Being sent "into the world" did not give him a free pass to go anywhere he wanted.

where was Timothy an apostle ? Since it wasn’t “ that region

yeah I don’t think you are looking in the right place honestly try this

“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so what I mean is start looking here a bit more rather than through our own earthly reasoning


“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-2, 10-12, 14‬

realizing
that’s “ the revelation of Jesus Christ “

maybe we’re looking at two different kingdoms

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Of course they were, but be careful with the word "world" as I'm sure no apostle of the Lamb made it to Canada. World would have been the surrounding areas. BUT apostles don't just traverse the countryside on whims, they are led by the Spirit. Paul, for example, was forbidden by the Holy Spirit to go to Asia. By this we can discern that Paul understood being led by the Spirit in his travels. Being sent "into the world" did not give him a free pass to go anywhere he wanted.

the apostles witness reached anyone in the world who reads a Bible

 

[Aaron56]

where was Timothy an apostle ?

Thessalonica, obviously. Which means he would have been sent there by the Holy Spirit, perhaps through Paul.

 

[Aaron56]

the apostles witness reached anyone in the world who reads a Bible

Most Apostles of the Lamb did not write one word of the scriptures. But God is not moved by celebrity, so we're good.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Most Apostles of the Lamb did not write one word of the scriptures. But God is not moved by celebrity, so we're good.

Wow lol John the apostle didn’t write John 1 john 2 john 3 john and revelation ?

Paul didn’t write his epistles ? Peter of course didn’t write his ? And that’s not the witness Jesus sent into the world ? Am
I misreading your post again ?

ever wonder why there’s a Bible in every nation ? And people who believe and share it ?

 

[Aaron56]

Am I misreading your post again ?

Yes you are actually.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Consider that not all the apostles saw the glorofoes lord either he chose three of them to witness it parter James and John interestingly enough Paul is the only other who saw his glorified face like this this is where Paul is included and why he is so important james eas martyred and had this witness

“But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud. And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭9:27-32, 34-35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

compare that experience with Paul’s and. Price he saw the light not a man like us but the same son of man glorofoed on the Mount before Peter the apostle , John the apostle and James who was beheaded in scripture Paul then received the third witness lost with James of the glorofoed christ

doesn’t that sort of answer why Paul , Peter and John make up the main witnesses in scripture ? Seems to goven the law requires two or three witnesses

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes you are actually.

so explain then

 

[Aaron56]

so explain then

I wrote: "Most Apostles of the Lamb did not write one word of the scriptures."

You wrote: "John the apostle didn’t write John 1 john 2 john 3 john and revelation? Paul didn’t write his epistles ? Peter of course didn’t write his?"

The 12 Apostles of the Lamb:

Matthew
Simon Peter
Andrew
James/Zeb
James/Alph
John
Philip
Bartholomew
Thomas
Thaddaeus
Simon the Zealot
Matthias

Only those underlined and in red wrote some of the New Testament. Even if you throw out Matthias and add Paul that's still only 4 of the 12.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Most Apostles of the Lamb did not write one word of the scriptures. But God is not moved by celebrity, so we're good.

how does that show there are more than 12 ? The apostles Jesus chose established the New Testament scripture can we agree there ? I’m not and have never said all twelve wrote scripture I’m saying thier witness established scripture , the ones Jesus apppinted Peter , John , Paul make up most of the nt is the point when they all died why did the scripture stop coming forth ? And why is their witness the same today as then yet it’s not just in Jerusalem or just around the area but you can go to america and hear thier witness or go to Australia and hear the same witness they gave 1900 years ago and it still tells
Us to believe thier witness of Jesus

Matthew wrote a gospel because he was chosen to do so , John , Peter who’s gospel was penned by mark , Luke never claimed apostleship and still recorded “ the acts of the apostles “ sharing thier witness and recorded thier witness of his gospel

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I wrote: "Most Apostles of the Lamb did not write one word of the scriptures."

You wrote: "John the apostle didn’t write John 1 john 2 john 3 john and revelation? Paul didn’t write his epistles ? Peter of course didn’t write his?"

The 12 Apostles of the Lamb:

Matthew
Simon Peter
Andrew
James/Zeb
James/Alph
John
Philip
Bartholomew
Thomas
Thaddaeus
Simon the Zealot
Matthias

Only those underlined and in red wrote some of the New Testament. Even if you throw out Matthias and add Paul that's still only 4 of the 12.

yes lol
I did misread that one agreed

like there was on the cloud right ? James being martyred and paul replacing him with the witness of light

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I wrote: "Most Apostles of the Lamb did not write one word of the scriptures."

You wrote: "John the apostle didn’t write John 1 john 2 john 3 john and revelation? Paul didn’t write his epistles ? Peter of course didn’t write his?"

The 12 Apostles of the Lamb:

Matthew
Simon Peter
Andrew
James/Zeb
James/Alph
John
Philip
Bartholomew
Thomas
Thaddaeus
Simon the Zealot
Matthias

Only those underlined and in red wrote some of the New Testament. Even if you throw out Matthias and add Paul that's still only 4 of the 12.

right but how is that an argument that anyone outside the twelve not Matthias Jesus doesn’t choose apostles without the Holy Ghost and by casting lots when he left earth there were eleven Peter like he often did jumps out of the boat and Donald because he wasn’t ready “ he was to wait for the Holy Spirit “ Matthias wasn’t chosen like Paul was no apostle is chosen by casting a lot l are chosen by Jesus himself that’s why he returned one time in scripture himself and when he did that one time it was to choose Paul the same way he chose the others so is the mans name hi is casted by a lot written or is it what Jesus chose that’s written ? Who’s name is recognized in heaven Paul or Matthias ?

 

[Aaron56]

right but how is that an argument that anyone outside the twelve not Matthias Jesus doesn’t choose apostles without the Holy Ghost and by casting lots when he left earth there were eleven Peter like he often did jumps out of the boat and Donald because he wasn’t ready “ he was to wait for the Holy Spirit “ Matthias wasn’t chosen like Paul was no apostle is chosen by casting a lot l are chosen by Jesus himself that’s why he returned one time in scripture himself and when he did that one time it was to choose Paul the same way he chose the others so is the mans name hi is casted by a lot written or is it what Jesus chose that’s written ? Who’s name is recognized in heaven Paul or Matthias ?

Peter knew that 12 was important. He even sited a scriptural precedent. Any less than 12 and the Jews, upon hearing his declaration, would not have been cut to the heart.

Barnabas was chosen after fasting and praying, hearing from God, and the prophets and teachers laid hands on him.

Timothy's calling as an apostle was likewise confirmed by Paul and other saints: "Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery." and "For this reason I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands."

I admit the manner of Paul's calling was unique, but he is the only exception. All others genuine apostles were and will be confirmed by seeking the Lord and by the laying on of hands.

AND, might I add, they will be sent by the Lord to preach the message of order for the church and of the Kingdom of God, not a denominational message as is the habit of many missionaries.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Peter knew that 12 was important. He even sited a scriptural precedent. Any less than 12 and the Jews, upon hearing his declaration, would not have been cut to the heart.

Barnabas was chosen after fasting and praying, hearing from God, and the prophets and teachers laid hands on him.

Timothy's calling as an apostle was likewise confirmed by Paul and other saints: "Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery." and "For this reason I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands."

I admit the manner of Paul's calling was unique, but he is the only exception. All others genuine apostles were and will be confirmed by seeking the Lord and by the laying on of hands.

AND, might I add, they will be sent by the Lord to preach the message of order for the church and of the Kingdom of God, not a denominational message as is the habit of many missionaries.

yeah but you have t addressed any point I’ve made just explained it all away is the thing reason

consider peters character of zeal even if sometimes he has moved before the lord . Consider he jumped out of the boat and a moment later needed saving .

ask yourself if jesus chose Matthias knowing he had told them not to operate u tim they received the Holy Spirit , yet Peter knowing that scripture went ahead and jumped out of the boat not yet having the spirit nothing done without Christs spirit will apply to his kingdom it’s created and based upon his own spoken word not a man operating without the spirit or jesus himself making the decision

Peter didn’t sin he was though operating outside what he was told, jesus had been explaining all this to them that he would go away for a short time and then return they were to wait for the spirit because that’s his presence . Consider how Peter spoke there and casted lots but then in the next chapter as soon as the spirit comes he starts revelations prophecy from Joel not guessing of casting lots but he goes into three of rhe greatest sermons ever given about Christ from prophecy

I think it intentionally shows us Peter operated outside the spirit there and also shows that even if we jump the Gun , Gods will is what’s going to last from Christs choice we have this mans witness who like James saw Christs glorified light as Peter and John

“Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if you look just at the scripture you see peters lots casting didn’t produce any value in scripture that teaches us but Jesus choice of Paul being chosen the same way the other 11 had been , he became a witness of the glory of Jesus Christ seen on the Mount by Peter and John the other two of the three required witnesses according to law.

if Matthias had been recognized why do you suppose Jesus didn’t choose him over the prior fourty days of the number 12 was needing to be made full before pentocost ? Why did Jesus allow only eleven until he went to heaven ? Why let Peter decide by an Old Testament ritual ? Before the soirit came and in violation of what he had been told to do by Christ ? Doesn’t make sense brother to me at least

I believe it’s showing us that sometimes we act in ways we think are right , but we need to listen closer first because Gods ways are always going to last and be recognized by him forever , and many of our ideas and works actually aren’t written in heaven

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I guess a simple question is does Jesus choosing write our name on eternity and give us our gift and calling ? Or does it get there without the Holy Ghost , and by casting lots because you don’t know the right choice ?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Peter knew that 12 was important. He even sited a scriptural precedent. Any less than 12 and the Jews, upon hearing his declaration, would not have been cut to the heart.

Barnabas was chosen after fasting and praying, hearing from God, and the prophets and teachers laid hands on him.

Timothy's calling as an apostle was likewise confirmed by Paul and other saints: "Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery." and "For this reason I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands."

I admit the manner of Paul's calling was unique, but he is the only exception. All others genuine apostles were and will be confirmed by seeking the Lord and by the laying on of hands.

AND, might I add, they will be sent by the Lord to preach the message of order for the church and of the Kingdom of God, not a denominational message as is the habit of many missionaries.

right this is my point exactly

“Barnabas was chosen after fasting and praying, hearing from God, and the prophets and teachers laid hands on him.”

that’s not the same as the twelve Jesus chose and it should be evident because he returned one time on earth tonthe intent of choosing Paul the same way as the prior eleven had been chosen

barnabus is anointed as a messenger for a certain purpose there by men laying hands on him praying ect the Holy Ghost even being present this time , but that doesn’t change the names Jesus chose for his apostles there are only twelve chosen the same way is my entire point

barnabus d many others carried e message Apollos also even though he learned from a husband and wife but it doesn’t make any of them one of the twelve chosen so posters of Jesus Christ who fulfilled his commission of sending thier witness in scripture to the ends of the earth for salvstion

now I’m in awe of barnabus he is important very few ever receive an honor in scripture like his name being translated into ( son of consolation ) he also received a new name from the apostles like Cephus, was named Peter by the lord

but it simply isn’t the same term as an apostle of the Lords choosing he didn’t randomly do this my belief is those 12 names were written long before they were ever born showing and proving out the foreknowledge of Gods ordainment before we ever exist he has a purpose within his kingdom set formoir times , our seasons , our places and cities he places us where we are in time and location because there are people with ears to hear his gospel

but this doesn’t change the twelve apostles of Jesus Christ , it doesn’t increase the number of apostles or how they are called and by whom

there’s an order in the kingdom Paul is an apostle and there are 12 .

“sub apostles “ or sent messengers are plenty in the church but the apostles are 12 established in the time of the planting of this seed and it’s the reason we still can sit and learn from them in scripture

“And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth: But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭4:30-

the small group of apostles he chose were the mustard seed , and by thier witness in scripture people from every nation on earth still believe in Jesus and are saved even now today someone is hearing Paul’s witness or peters witness or johns witness it lasts because it’s what Jesus set up knowing it would reach us by those he appointed to witness and record the truth