In context, the vision Joseph had concerned his future relationship with his family in Egypt. Yes, Joseph is a type of Christ. How you see him as a type of Christ controls how you might interpret this. I don't believe the 12 sons of Jacob were symbolic of the 12 apostles of Christ. But I do believe the 12 apostles of Christ were called to represent, symbolically, the 12 tribes of Israel.context is ok but totality is all also important
the standard of righteousness
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No Timothy Titus or sylvanus are never called an apostle
the only two in question are Matthias , and barnabus .
to just say they are called apostles because of scripture like this is not really going to convince me at least
“Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:”
2 Corinthians 1:1 KJV
that only calls Paul an apostle and says the other are brothers which we all are.
No he actually says this regarding the “ twelve “
“And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.”
1 Corinthians 15:4-5, 7-8
your not looking at what he’s referring to after the resurrection he was seen by many many folks . That alone doesn’t make an apostle it requires what happened to
Paul and never happened to
Matthias or barnabus
show me where this happened to anyone other than the eleven or Paul ? Jesus appeared to Paul in person as he had the other eleven that he had chosen not Matthias , that Peter cast lots to choose , before receiving the Holy Spirit
But what I Thy r man outside the twelve Jesus chose experienced this after the resurrection
“And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.”
Acts 9:5-6 KJV
that doesn’t happen to any other but the twelve apostles of the lamb Judas never received the call after he raised up , mar Thy has never received the call of Christ either nor did Peter receive the Holy Spirit who chi news the authority of Christ instead he decided himself d cast lots beforehand
barnabus is once refered to as apostle here
“Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,”
Acts 14:14 KJV
but again that’s because they were sent on a mission here through the laying on of hands of a group again. Ot jesus appearing and separating barnabus for the gospel but appointing a companion for Paul to complete his mission
I’m not sure you have an argument against what I’m saying , I don’t think your hearing me
name these names right here
“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
Revelation 21:14 KJV
you name those twelve and you will hear what I’m getting at
and then go reread what I was saying that there are probably thousands claiming and being referred to as apostle but that will neve increase the names of Jesus apostles there are exactly 12 men who he himself learned to and chose
d there are many “ messengers” “ witnesses “ and “ sent ones” who you , Luke , or the lds church can call apostles
but I’m willing to be sure there are twelve apostles that founded the New Testament chosen by Christ positive Paul is the twelfth but again that’s just my thinking I believe you arent selerwtinf the apostles of Jesus Christ with the messengers in the world
because of this
the only two in question are Matthias , and barnabus .
to just say they are called apostles because of scripture like this is not really going to convince me at least
“Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:”
2 Corinthians 1:1 KJV
that only calls Paul an apostle and says the other are brothers which we all are.
No he actually says this regarding the “ twelve “
“And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.”
1 Corinthians 15:4-5, 7-8
your not looking at what he’s referring to after the resurrection he was seen by many many folks . That alone doesn’t make an apostle it requires what happened to
Paul and never happened to
Matthias or barnabus
show me where this happened to anyone other than the eleven or Paul ? Jesus appeared to Paul in person as he had the other eleven that he had chosen not Matthias , that Peter cast lots to choose , before receiving the Holy Spirit
But what I Thy r man outside the twelve Jesus chose experienced this after the resurrection
“And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.”
Acts 9:5-6 KJV
that doesn’t happen to any other but the twelve apostles of the lamb Judas never received the call after he raised up , mar Thy has never received the call of Christ either nor did Peter receive the Holy Spirit who chi news the authority of Christ instead he decided himself d cast lots beforehand
barnabus is once refered to as apostle here
“Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,”
Acts 14:14 KJV
but again that’s because they were sent on a mission here through the laying on of hands of a group again. Ot jesus appearing and separating barnabus for the gospel but appointing a companion for Paul to complete his mission
I’m not sure you have an argument against what I’m saying , I don’t think your hearing me
name these names right here
“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
Revelation 21:14 KJV
you name those twelve and you will hear what I’m getting at
and then go reread what I was saying that there are probably thousands claiming and being referred to as apostle but that will neve increase the names of Jesus apostles there are exactly 12 men who he himself learned to and chose
d there are many “ messengers” “ witnesses “ and “ sent ones” who you , Luke , or the lds church can call apostles
but I’m willing to be sure there are twelve apostles that founded the New Testament chosen by Christ positive Paul is the twelfth but again that’s just my thinking I believe you arent selerwtinf the apostles of Jesus Christ with the messengers in the world
because of this
Without the Holy Spirit yes it was
receiving the Holy Spirit is now what is needed
“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
Acts 1:8 KJV
if you notice at this time there were eleven apostles , and Paul is the one who was charged with leading the gentile conversion and Matthias was never even heard no one knows his witness but everyone has heard the one Jesus sent forth , Paul to fulfill this part of what he had told Peter
ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth
so you would have to see Paul in Thy at statement wouldn’t we ?
receiving the Holy Spirit is now what is needed
“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
Acts 1:8 KJV
if you notice at this time there were eleven apostles , and Paul is the one who was charged with leading the gentile conversion and Matthias was never even heard no one knows his witness but everyone has heard the one Jesus sent forth , Paul to fulfill this part of what he had told Peter
ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth
so you would have to see Paul in Thy at statement wouldn’t we ?
For the benefit of your said confusion.
The titles, New and Old Testaments are titles given to the Scsriptures of all that is necessary to know.
In the first chapter of John , it is made clear that the Word is our Savior, and that He is God.
Now, if Jesus Christ is the Word, the Bible Is representative of Him.
All of the writings s, be it the prophets or the Aposstles, may be attributed to eh Word............even if the actual penning of them is by men. The words are from God, Jesus Yeshua.
I could go on, but this is getting ridiculous that you cannot fathom the simple and easist way, my original post whic says the same loudly.
Now, no more back and forth for it is beginning to appear you may have some ulterior movive for continuing in ignorance of what my post(s) say.
The titles, New and Old Testaments are titles given to the Scsriptures of all that is necessary to know.
In the first chapter of John , it is made clear that the Word is our Savior, and that He is God.
Now, if Jesus Christ is the Word, the Bible Is representative of Him.
All of the writings s, be it the prophets or the Aposstles, may be attributed to eh Word............even if the actual penning of them is by men. The words are from God, Jesus Yeshua.
I could go on, but this is getting ridiculous that you cannot fathom the simple and easist way, my original post whic says the same loudly.
Now, no more back and forth for it is beginning to appear you may have some ulterior movive for continuing in ignorance of what my post(s) say.
1 Thessalonians
“Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,
To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
This is a letter written jointly by Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy. So when we read it, the word “we” is referring to the authors of the letter: Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy.
Then there is, in the same letter, chapter 2 verse 6:
“Nor did we (Paul, Silvanus, Timothy) seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when we (Paul, Silvanus, Timothy) might have made demands as apostles of Christ.”
Notice: not “of men” but “of Christ”.
“Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,
To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
This is a letter written jointly by Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy. So when we read it, the word “we” is referring to the authors of the letter: Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy.
Then there is, in the same letter, chapter 2 verse 6:
“Nor did we (Paul, Silvanus, Timothy) seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when we (Paul, Silvanus, Timothy) might have made demands as apostles of Christ.”
Notice: not “of men” but “of Christ”.
I posted this weeks ago.
Gal 1:19 “But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord's brother.”
Acts 15: He presides over the apostolic and elder council in Jerusalem
Acts 14:11-15a “When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they shouted in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have come down to us in human form!” Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes because he was the chief speaker. The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought bulls and wreaths to the city gates because he and the crowd wanted to offer sacrifices to them.
But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting: “Friends, why are you doing this?
1 Thessalonians (My footnotes are inserted within () where you see them.)
1:1 “Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, (This denotes who is writing the letter)
To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ…”
1:2 “We (Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy) give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers…”
1:5 “For our (Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy) gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake."
2:4 “But as we (Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy) have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, even so we speak, not as pleasing men, but God who tests our hearts."
2:6 “Nor did we (Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy) seek glory from men, either from you or from others, we (Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy) might have made demands as apostles of Christ."
The scriptures are clear: James, Silvanus Timothy, and Barnabas were apostles.
The qualifications to be numbered among The Twelve were clearly laid out by Peter in Acts.
Acts 1:21-22 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
1st qualification: “men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning with the baptism of John”
2nd qualification; “..to that day when He was taken up from us…” So, he also had to witness Jesus’ ascension.
Now, the last line is key “..one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
The person chosen must become a witness, with the other eleven, of His resurrection. And, just to be clear, Peter declares the type of ministry the twelfth one will undertake with the other eleven: "And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.”
There are a couple questions that arise out of this: Why must there be twelve? I mean, apostles seemed to be in short supply back then. Why not stack the deck with as many as you could? Why not allow Justus/Barsabas AND Mathias into the ranks? If apostles were so important, the more you have the better off you are, or so it would seem.
Additionally, why was 11 not sufficient? Does God not like prime numbers? Why go through all the trouble choosing another if you already have 11? Did Peter read Revelation 21:14 and realize they were one short? (Pro-tip: “No”) These are the obvious questions for anyone who reads the scriptures. I think, as much as we are encouraged to study the scriptures, we take a lot of teachings at face value. We agree and move on without asking important questions like “Why?” or finding out how certain ideas became part of our doctrine. This, of course, is another discussion altogether.
Obviously, the number “12” was the issue of importance. So, it’s important to know why.
According to the Jewish Beth Din, their legal system in the days of Jesus, the days of the apostles; when twelve witnesses testified to a matter, it was conclusively presumed to be true. As an aside, it’s where, in American jurisprudence and in English common law, we get a jury of twelve. That is its history. Twelve witnesses testifying to a matter allowed for there to be a conclusive presumption that the issue in controversy was true. Now, we see the twelve on the day of Pentecost functioning as witnesses and that's what they said. They said (to paraphrase), "This Jesus you took, crucified Him with your wicked hands, and God raised Him from the dead whereof we, The Twelve,” (Peter stood up with the other eleven), “we are all witnesses."
The two criteria set forth by Peter were designed to select one more person to fill out the required quotient of twelve witnesses. That's why it was not eleven and that's why it wasn't thirteen, because the work was to bring the gospel, first, to the Jews on the day of Pentecost and that required twelve. Peter knew it and of course the Holy Spirit knew it. And when Judas fell, the Holy Spirit made provision, by Peter's lots, for Matthias to replace Judas.
Now what of Revelation 21:14? “Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” Simple, there were only 12 Apostles of the Lamb: the witnesses, the apostles, who first preached the gospel in the earth. Matthias was one of them; James (the Lord’s brother), Barnabas, Timothy and Silvanus were not. And neither was Paul. None of the Gentile apostles met the criteria.
So, now that it is clear that there were other apostles other than the 12, other questions arise: What for? What is the purpose of the apostle, or, more precisely, why did God give the apostolic gift to men? What is its function in the Body of Christ? And are there apostles even today? I will continue this teaching and answer these questions another time.
Grace and Peace,
Aaron56
Gal 1:19 “But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord's brother.”
Acts 15: He presides over the apostolic and elder council in Jerusalem
Acts 14:11-15a “When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they shouted in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have come down to us in human form!” Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes because he was the chief speaker. The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought bulls and wreaths to the city gates because he and the crowd wanted to offer sacrifices to them.
But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting: “Friends, why are you doing this?
1 Thessalonians (My footnotes are inserted within () where you see them.)
1:1 “Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, (This denotes who is writing the letter)
To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ…”
1:2 “We (Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy) give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers…”
1:5 “For our (Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy) gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake."
2:4 “But as we (Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy) have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, even so we speak, not as pleasing men, but God who tests our hearts."
2:6 “Nor did we (Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy) seek glory from men, either from you or from others, we (Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy) might have made demands as apostles of Christ."
The scriptures are clear: James, Silvanus Timothy, and Barnabas were apostles.
The qualifications to be numbered among The Twelve were clearly laid out by Peter in Acts.
Acts 1:21-22 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
1st qualification: “men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning with the baptism of John”
2nd qualification; “..to that day when He was taken up from us…” So, he also had to witness Jesus’ ascension.
Now, the last line is key “..one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
The person chosen must become a witness, with the other eleven, of His resurrection. And, just to be clear, Peter declares the type of ministry the twelfth one will undertake with the other eleven: "And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.”
There are a couple questions that arise out of this: Why must there be twelve? I mean, apostles seemed to be in short supply back then. Why not stack the deck with as many as you could? Why not allow Justus/Barsabas AND Mathias into the ranks? If apostles were so important, the more you have the better off you are, or so it would seem.
Additionally, why was 11 not sufficient? Does God not like prime numbers? Why go through all the trouble choosing another if you already have 11? Did Peter read Revelation 21:14 and realize they were one short? (Pro-tip: “No”) These are the obvious questions for anyone who reads the scriptures. I think, as much as we are encouraged to study the scriptures, we take a lot of teachings at face value. We agree and move on without asking important questions like “Why?” or finding out how certain ideas became part of our doctrine. This, of course, is another discussion altogether.
Obviously, the number “12” was the issue of importance. So, it’s important to know why.
According to the Jewish Beth Din, their legal system in the days of Jesus, the days of the apostles; when twelve witnesses testified to a matter, it was conclusively presumed to be true. As an aside, it’s where, in American jurisprudence and in English common law, we get a jury of twelve. That is its history. Twelve witnesses testifying to a matter allowed for there to be a conclusive presumption that the issue in controversy was true. Now, we see the twelve on the day of Pentecost functioning as witnesses and that's what they said. They said (to paraphrase), "This Jesus you took, crucified Him with your wicked hands, and God raised Him from the dead whereof we, The Twelve,” (Peter stood up with the other eleven), “we are all witnesses."
The two criteria set forth by Peter were designed to select one more person to fill out the required quotient of twelve witnesses. That's why it was not eleven and that's why it wasn't thirteen, because the work was to bring the gospel, first, to the Jews on the day of Pentecost and that required twelve. Peter knew it and of course the Holy Spirit knew it. And when Judas fell, the Holy Spirit made provision, by Peter's lots, for Matthias to replace Judas.
Now what of Revelation 21:14? “Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” Simple, there were only 12 Apostles of the Lamb: the witnesses, the apostles, who first preached the gospel in the earth. Matthias was one of them; James (the Lord’s brother), Barnabas, Timothy and Silvanus were not. And neither was Paul. None of the Gentile apostles met the criteria.
So, now that it is clear that there were other apostles other than the 12, other questions arise: What for? What is the purpose of the apostle, or, more precisely, why did God give the apostolic gift to men? What is its function in the Body of Christ? And are there apostles even today? I will continue this teaching and answer these questions another time.
Grace and Peace,
Aaron56
so writing a letter with Paul makes an apostle ? Maybe thats our disconnect
last try to communicate what I’m saying to you you don’t have to agree but this should explain my view
“ And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
Acts 1:9, 13, KJV
Consider that when Jesus left earth there were his eleven chosen apostles . all eleven had been personally chosen by Jesus they walked and spoke and lived with the lord saving sinners and heard many secret teachings among the apostles.
So for the sake of argument let’s look at when Jesus left earth into heaven there were eleven. This shouldn’t be argumentative it’s plainly there they were told this before Matthias was chosen by lots
“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
Acts 1:8 KJV
then Jesus who had went into heaven with eleven chosen apostles left on earth , returns once and appears on earth before Saul of tarsus
“And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”
Acts 26:15-18 KJV
After Paul is blinded for three days ( the same time the eleven suffered sorrow during Jesus three days in the tomb. Ananias is told of Sauls purpose in a vision
“But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:”
Acts 9:15 KJV
And then Jesus never appears to any man again to choose him in person on earth as he has the other eleven and Judas iscariot was never appointed to preach the gospel to the world he died beforehand
it seems to me , and that’s my only claim , seems to me , that these twelve names are the apostles of Jesus Christ Paul being the last added and required number of 12
“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
Revelation 21:14 KJV
and others referred to loosely as apostles aren’t part of the twelve apostles chosen and appointed by Christ Jesus and his kingdom only twelve were chosen by the lord. And certainly because someone helped wrote a letter doesn’t make an apostle
I believe as he said they will judge the twelve tribes in the resurrection I believe that their names are written in scripture and recognized forever in heaven .
Another thing about apostles is this , like the eleven had been taught by Jesus and given revelation by Jesus others did not receive this includes Paul with the eleven
“But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.”
Galatians 1:11-12, 17 KJV
like the eleven Paul’s doctrine came from Jesus , as if he had walked with them and learned the secret things also , now consider say Apollos for example
“And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.”
Acts 18:24, 26 KJV
Or consider barnabus
“And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.”
Acts 4:36-37 KJV
and Matthias why didn’t Jesus choose him himself before he left for heaven ? But rather
“And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.”
Acts 1:26 KJV
I’m comfortable recognizing the twelve Jesus chose and appointed who’s names are in heaven forever as are the names of the church itself, but not on the foundation of the walls that’s reserved for the twelve apostles. They were given a higher honor , and higher responsibility and Jesus chooses who he will not always who we want or choose or label
All that said barnabus and Apollos Timothy all who converted and appear in scripture teaching others and sharing the gospel shouldn’t be cut down by it there are simply 12 apostles as there are twelve tribes of Israel and scripture sets them apart and also names all 24 names written on the kingdom gates and walls
if you want to know the twelve names on the twelve gates try genesis 49 and consider the names of jacobs sons then you’ll also know there names as well as the apostles names
“And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:”
Revelation 21:12 KJV
Then could probably name the 24 elders in heaven also
last try to communicate what I’m saying to you you don’t have to agree but this should explain my view
“ And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
Acts 1:9, 13, KJV
Consider that when Jesus left earth there were his eleven chosen apostles . all eleven had been personally chosen by Jesus they walked and spoke and lived with the lord saving sinners and heard many secret teachings among the apostles.
So for the sake of argument let’s look at when Jesus left earth into heaven there were eleven. This shouldn’t be argumentative it’s plainly there they were told this before Matthias was chosen by lots
“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
Acts 1:8 KJV
then Jesus who had went into heaven with eleven chosen apostles left on earth , returns once and appears on earth before Saul of tarsus
“And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”
Acts 26:15-18 KJV
After Paul is blinded for three days ( the same time the eleven suffered sorrow during Jesus three days in the tomb. Ananias is told of Sauls purpose in a vision
“But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:”
Acts 9:15 KJV
And then Jesus never appears to any man again to choose him in person on earth as he has the other eleven and Judas iscariot was never appointed to preach the gospel to the world he died beforehand
it seems to me , and that’s my only claim , seems to me , that these twelve names are the apostles of Jesus Christ Paul being the last added and required number of 12
“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
Revelation 21:14 KJV
and others referred to loosely as apostles aren’t part of the twelve apostles chosen and appointed by Christ Jesus and his kingdom only twelve were chosen by the lord. And certainly because someone helped wrote a letter doesn’t make an apostle
I believe as he said they will judge the twelve tribes in the resurrection I believe that their names are written in scripture and recognized forever in heaven .
Another thing about apostles is this , like the eleven had been taught by Jesus and given revelation by Jesus others did not receive this includes Paul with the eleven
“But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.”
Galatians 1:11-12, 17 KJV
like the eleven Paul’s doctrine came from Jesus , as if he had walked with them and learned the secret things also , now consider say Apollos for example
“And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.”
Acts 18:24, 26 KJV
Or consider barnabus
“And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.”
Acts 4:36-37 KJV
and Matthias why didn’t Jesus choose him himself before he left for heaven ? But rather
“And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.”
Acts 1:26 KJV
I’m comfortable recognizing the twelve Jesus chose and appointed who’s names are in heaven forever as are the names of the church itself, but not on the foundation of the walls that’s reserved for the twelve apostles. They were given a higher honor , and higher responsibility and Jesus chooses who he will not always who we want or choose or label
All that said barnabus and Apollos Timothy all who converted and appear in scripture teaching others and sharing the gospel shouldn’t be cut down by it there are simply 12 apostles as there are twelve tribes of Israel and scripture sets them apart and also names all 24 names written on the kingdom gates and walls
if you want to know the twelve names on the twelve gates try genesis 49 and consider the names of jacobs sons then you’ll also know there names as well as the apostles names
“And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:”
Revelation 21:12 KJV
Then could probably name the 24 elders in heaven also
The argument that because there are a set number of Apostles that Jesus especially chose, namely 12, that there can be no others doesn't hold water. "The Twelve" indicates a particular grouping of apostles, and obviously does not limit the title of "apostle" strictly to them.
Now we may argue Why this set of Twelve, as opposed to a larger group that is more inclusive. But that's beside the point. The point is that both the Twelve and other apostles are mentioned in the Bible. Trying to delegitimize people who were called "apostles" doesn't work for me.
That is a pure insertion into something that has been assumed to be legitimate normally. These men were called "apostles." Paul was an "apostle," and is *never* called one of the Twelve! Barnabas was an apostle. Matthias became a member of the Twelve apostles after Judas left. Trying to make all this fit into "the Twelve" is pure fantasy, in my view!
Now we may argue Why this set of Twelve, as opposed to a larger group that is more inclusive. But that's beside the point. The point is that both the Twelve and other apostles are mentioned in the Bible. Trying to delegitimize people who were called "apostles" doesn't work for me.
That is a pure insertion into something that has been assumed to be legitimate normally. These men were called "apostles." Paul was an "apostle," and is *never* called one of the Twelve! Barnabas was an apostle. Matthias became a member of the Twelve apostles after Judas left. Trying to make all this fit into "the Twelve" is pure fantasy, in my view!
These are simply my thoughts:
Why not call the twelve "Apostles of Christ" or "Apostles of the Lord"? Why, The "Apostles of the Lamb"? And why are their names on the foundation?
He died as The Lamb of God but He was not raised as the Lamb of God. He was raised as Christ, the life-giving Spirit. The twelve witnesses, who first declared this to the world (including Matthias), that Jesus died and was resurrected for the remission of man's sins, are honored with their names on the foundation. They were all witnesses of His ministry (when he gave up His own life so that the Father would live through Him) to the time of His ascension (when He was validated as the Messiah in the view of men).
Why not call the twelve "Apostles of Christ" or "Apostles of the Lord"? Why, The "Apostles of the Lamb"? And why are their names on the foundation?
He died as The Lamb of God but He was not raised as the Lamb of God. He was raised as Christ, the life-giving Spirit. The twelve witnesses, who first declared this to the world (including Matthias), that Jesus died and was resurrected for the remission of man's sins, are honored with their names on the foundation. They were all witnesses of His ministry (when he gave up His own life so that the Father would live through Him) to the time of His ascension (when He was validated as the Messiah in the view of men).
This is a letter written jointly by Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy. So when we read it, the word “we” is referring to the authors of the letter: Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy.
Then there is, in the same letter, chapter 2 verse 6:
“Nor did we (Paul, Silvanus, Timothy) seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when we (Paul, Silvanus, Timothy) might have made demands as apostles of Christ.”
you are making that the names Paul’s argument was always that he was equal to the other apostles “ we” is a reference to we the apostles Paul began spreading the gospel upon meeting Jesus not learning anything from anyone but receiving revelation from Jesus who returned from heaven to choose and appoint him to this place
“Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,”
Colossians 1:1 KJV
why doesn’t he say paul
And Timothy apostles of Jesus send greetings ? All the church are brothers and sisters the apostles are the elder brothers just as jacobs 12 sons are the elders of Israel’s tribes
the ot ales us patterns the new 12 tribes is a pattern for twelve apostles were there ever any further tribes added tonthe twelve of Israel ? No , but there were many concerts tonthe twelve tribes
they are the tree bearing twelve fruits in the city also
“In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.”
Revelation 22:2 KJV
one thing about God is he always provides a pattern of what he is going to do and always completes it in the pattern
12 tribes , 12 apostles whom will judge them all being of Israel’s twelve tribes as was the lord
My own thoughts are that the Twelve deserved special consideration due to the fact Jesus specifically called them as the beginning ministry in Israel and extending outwards. They were specially trained and lived with Jesus so that what they reported Jesus said was accurate and reliable.
It is the same courtesy a court would give an eyewitness to a crime. There may be other witnesses, but there are "special witnesses," who have a bit more clout with the court.
This is what the Twelve were, representing Jesus' original grouping. But he certainly sent out more than just these twelve! He sent out 70 others, as well, although I don't know that we can call them "apostles."
But the term "apostle" does have a more generic, though important, application. That office remained very high, whoever had it applied to them.
And so, men, like James, the brother of Jesus, Paul, Barnabas, and others were given that dignity, due to their close association with Jesus' original plan of extending the Gospel out into the world. They were specially chosen because of their special proximity to apostolic teaching and to Jesus himself, whether personally or by revelation.
I think it's terrible to read into the "lottery" system, used to replace Judas, a false methodology that was not accepted by God. In fact, the very apostles who we are giving respect to were the very ones who accepted Matthias as one of their own!
It is terrible to try to claim Paul was the real replacement for Judas among the Twelve when nobody in the Scriptures ever said that! It is equally terrible to deny Barnabas a place among the apostles. In fact there are a number of candidates for "apostle" in the NT, and we should just accept Scripture as it is, rather than try to read malfeasance into the process.
It is the same courtesy a court would give an eyewitness to a crime. There may be other witnesses, but there are "special witnesses," who have a bit more clout with the court.
This is what the Twelve were, representing Jesus' original grouping. But he certainly sent out more than just these twelve! He sent out 70 others, as well, although I don't know that we can call them "apostles."
But the term "apostle" does have a more generic, though important, application. That office remained very high, whoever had it applied to them.
And so, men, like James, the brother of Jesus, Paul, Barnabas, and others were given that dignity, due to their close association with Jesus' original plan of extending the Gospel out into the world. They were specially chosen because of their special proximity to apostolic teaching and to Jesus himself, whether personally or by revelation.
I think it's terrible to read into the "lottery" system, used to replace Judas, a false methodology that was not accepted by God. In fact, the very apostles who we are giving respect to were the very ones who accepted Matthias as one of their own!
It is terrible to try to claim Paul was the real replacement for Judas among the Twelve when nobody in the Scriptures ever said that! It is equally terrible to deny Barnabas a place among the apostles. In fact there are a number of candidates for "apostle" in the NT, and we should just accept Scripture as it is, rather than try to read malfeasance into the process.
Do you not understand that’s what written in heaven defines what is one earth ? Those names weren’t written yesterday were they ? Those names were written from thhis time and Jesus came to reveal them
“They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.”
Isaiah 48:7 KJV
when Jesus came and chose only 12 men on earth and kept the number at 12 until he cut out Judas before he died and rose leaving 11
and then Peter speaks of the necessary to ad another to make 12 again . Your argument is that 12 isn’t important even though in eternity there are exactly 12 names written on heaven ? That doesn’t hold water To you guys really ?
let me just ask any of you a question and if you can answer it I think you may see my point
what are these 12 names ?
“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
Revelation 21:14 KJV
with the understanding and everything you have what are those 12 names written as apostles of Jesus on heaven ?
before you explain it’s not really twelve and it’s a figure notice there’s are only 12 tribes also and 12 names so it’s not a figure so who can name the twelve apostles written in heaven ? Do that and you will see at least my position and then notice how 12 men are distinctly chosen in a certain way by a certain Lord of all
then consider that anything Jesus establishes is why it’s written in eternity
I’ll wait for someone to answer the very simple question whomis named the twelve apostles in the kingdom of heaven ???
“They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.”
Isaiah 48:7 KJV
when Jesus came and chose only 12 men on earth and kept the number at 12 until he cut out Judas before he died and rose leaving 11
and then Peter speaks of the necessary to ad another to make 12 again . Your argument is that 12 isn’t important even though in eternity there are exactly 12 names written on heaven ? That doesn’t hold water To you guys really ?
let me just ask any of you a question and if you can answer it I think you may see my point
what are these 12 names ?
“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
Revelation 21:14 KJV
with the understanding and everything you have what are those 12 names written as apostles of Jesus on heaven ?
before you explain it’s not really twelve and it’s a figure notice there’s are only 12 tribes also and 12 names so it’s not a figure so who can name the twelve apostles written in heaven ? Do that and you will see at least my position and then notice how 12 men are distinctly chosen in a certain way by a certain Lord of all
then consider that anything Jesus establishes is why it’s written in eternity
I’ll wait for someone to answer the very simple question whomis named the twelve apostles in the kingdom of heaven ???
oh so apostles aren’t the ones he sent to all the world like the twelve ? So your breaking off into me sun apostle category where was Timothy “ an apostle “ certainly not this region here right ?
“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
Revelation 21:14 KJV
since you are a teacher and wise man name those names for me and shown me why they are distinct
“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
Revelation 21:14 KJV
since you are a teacher and wise man name those names for me and shown me why they are distinct