Why do Christians believe in a place of torment called Hell?

[TheLearner]

Luke does not say eternal fire neither,
28 “It will be the same as during the time of Lot, when God destroyed Sodom. Those people were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, and building houses for themselves. 29 They were doing these things even on the day when Lot left town. Then fire and sulfur rained down from the sky and killed them all. 30 This is exactly how it will be when the Son of Man comes again.

Neither does Peter,


2 Peter 2:6

Easy-to-Read Version



6 God also punished the evil cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. He burned them until there was nothing left but ashes. He used those cities as an example of what will happen to people who are against God.


The people of SG are currently suffering punishment in the grave. Luke 16 and those of them who did not repent will be among the goats.

 

[1ofthem]

Pease excuse me for editing your post to just these points, as they are what I wish to address/focus on. I can certainly appreciate that you are open minded enough to re-examine your beliefs and maybe even assumptions, particularly since you are doing it line by line and precept by precept which is a Biblically prescribed manner

I have bolded a couple of statements you made above and in the spirit of being consistent I would like to see where this first one is stated in Scripture. Likewise for the second statement I bolded above. The fact is the dead know nothing (explicitly stated in Scripture), so saying the second death is like the first and the consciousness man is retained actually contradicts what Scripture explicitly states.

I'm a little busy today and a little pressed for time...so I'll have to use two different posts to discuss my position on each of the points you highlight.

Here is the first point you highlighted:

At judgment God gives the spirit of the dead back and even their bodies will be resurrected. At this time, if spirit was not regenerated because they did not accept the sacrifice of Christ, then it will die again for the 2nd and last time = separated from God forever. This 2nd time the spirit will remain dead or separated from God forever because there remains no more sacrifice. Jesus is not coming back to sacrifice and die again. The next time He comes, He is coming for judgement.


1st point - The only way that a body can rise again or live again is by having a spirit.

We know that the body without the spirit is dead. James 2: 26 We also know that once someone dies then the spirit goes back to God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7 The soul is not mentioned which seems to make it clear that it is the part that is consciously awaiting judgment.

The BODY decays...the SPIRIT goes back to God and the SOUL is somewhere awaiting judgment.


We know God formed Adam's body from the dust and then breathed the spirit into him which made him a living soul.

On judgment day, the bodies are going to come back together from the sea, all parts of the earth, where ever they are/were. To live, God is going to have to give their spirit back to them.

If their spirit had been reborn before death....then they will have part in the first resurrection. Judged into "eternal life" with God.

If their spirit had not been reborn...then they will have part in the second resurrection. Judged into everlasting/eternal damnation/punishment in the Lake of Fire.

 

[TheLearner]

can you burn when you are literally dead, Physically, mentally and spiritually dead? when there is nothing to burn Can you burn?

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Think about it. Who is saying? ...."Eternal life is given to everyone, some in heaven and some in hell." This is a Lie from Satan...

Hi Friend, would you agree that when Nero took Christians super glued them a stake and set them on fire for his garden parties, that was torture? Would not burning people alive be torture?

 

[TheLearner]

It was said it would burn forever, yet it no longer burns. The term forever has been discussed with many examples given over a number of posts PROVING that forever does NOT always mean without end. Go back and start with this post. Then read posts #348 and 349

Also it would be helpful if people excepted death as punishment. Obviously some do not.

The second death is eternal punishment because it lasts forever after.

One who ceases to exist is not being punishment after that.

When Nero used Christians as human torches was that torture?

 

[TheLearner]

^^ *Accepted, not excepted

I do like your art.

 

[TheLearner]

Eternal fire burned it yet that doesn't mean something burned in eternal fire will itself burn eternally. Also, we are discussing eternal torment as in being tormented/tortured eternally. Both sides agree the punishment is eternal but disagree on what that punishment is. One side says the eternal punishment or to be painfully burned forever where other side says the eternal punishment is death.

I already post the scripture texts involved. In short, I forgot what I was going to say.




In Judge the eternal suffering is present tense meaning like in luke 16 they are suffering. And, they will suffer after the Judgement too.

When Nero used Christians for human torches was that torture?

 

[TheLearner]

Satan is destroyed before death is destroyed.

The last enemy that shall be abolished is death agrees with my Hebrew Translation. The source I quoted is from a well know Scholar of Greek. "abolished" fits the context. The word destroyed is used figurativity for abolished.


What is your understanding friend of this verse?


2 Timothy 1:10

Easy-to-Read Version



10 And now it has been shown to us in the coming of our Savior Christ Jesus. He destroyed death and showed us the way to have life. Yes, through the Good News Jesus showed us the way to have life that cannot be destroyed.

 

[TheLearner]

Berean Literal Bible
The last enemy to be abolished is death.

New American Standard Bible
The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

NASB 1995
The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

NASB 1977
The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

Amplified Bible
The last enemy to be abolished and put to an end is death.

Christian Standard Bible
The last enemy to be abolished is death.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The last enemy to be abolished is death.

American Standard Version
The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.

English Revised Version
The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.

Good News Translation
The last enemy to be defeated will be death.

International Standard Version
The last enemy to be done away with is death,

Literal Standard Version
The last enemy is done away with—death.

NET Bible
The last enemy to be eliminated is death.

New Heart English Bible
The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

Weymouth New Testament
The last enemy that is to be overthrown is Death;

World English Bible
The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

Young's Literal Translation
the last enemy is done away -- death;

Smith's Literal Translation
The last enemy, death, is left unemployed.

Weymouth New Testament
The last enemy that is to be overthrown is Death;

Worrell New Testament
As the last enemy, death is abolished;

https://biblehub.com/parallel/1_corinthians/15-26.htm

 

[1ofthem]

If you want to do that then why not take an average of the verses that support eternal torment versus the number that support destruction? There's one verse that literally says anyone gets tormented forever and it's precisely three persons: the devil, beast, and false prophet, but that comes with a plot twist. The devil is/will be destroyed in Hebrews 2:14.

The ratio of eternal torment verses to annihilation verses is something like 1:~15-20. (I'm taking my best guess, I haven't counted... yet) So the odds of eternal torment being scriptural are slim even if we factor in a few of the verses that seem to be borderline pro-eternal torment.

I just don't think we/I can do that (count the number of times a certain word is used and come to a conclusion) because the scripture has to be rightly divided, and that is what both of us are trying to do.

From my part, I am trying to take in the meaning and complete picture of all the other scriptures to come to the right/honest conclusion.

I fully believe the Bible is complete and without contradiction. The case for annihilation is 100% biblical in my view.

And no I am not a Jehovah's Witness or anywhere close to that. I'm a humble Bible scholar with nothing but sincerity in my pursuit of truth.

Like I said previously, I know this about you. I have had enough interaction with you to know that you honestly and sincerely study the word of God to come to the correct meaning.

Seriously, that is one of the main reasons that I am taking a harder/closer look at my position on this matter. I do respect you and others here so that is why I am scrutinizing my own understanding...to make sure it is correct.

If it is correct then it will stand. If not, then I'm going to have to lose it and denounce it.

Some of the conversation here has made me waiver back and forth, a little. So I keep praying and contemplating, looking for the true meaning. So far, I continue to be directed back to "eternal conscious punishment."

 

[TheLearner]

Isaiah 25:8
English Standard Version
He will swallow up death forever; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for the LORD has spoken.

most translate like above ESV.

Douay-Rheims Bible
He shall cast death down headlong forever:

Good News Translation
The Sovereign LORD will destroy death forever!

NET Bible
he will swallow up death permanently.

Literal Standard Version
He has swallowed up death in victory,

Catholic Public Domain Version
He will violently cast down death forever.

JPS Tanakh 1917
He will swallow up death for ever;

https://biblehub.com/parallel/isaiah/25-8.htm

 

[TheLearner]

Berean Literal Bible
The last enemy to be abolished is death.

New American Standard Bible
The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

NASB 1995
The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

NASB 1977
The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

Amplified Bible
The last enemy to be abolished and put to an end is death.

Christian Standard Bible
The last enemy to be abolished is death.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The last enemy to be abolished is death.

American Standard Version
The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.

English Revised Version
The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.

Good News Translation
The last enemy to be defeated will be death.

International Standard Version
The last enemy to be done away with is death,

Literal Standard Version
The last enemy is done away with—death.

NET Bible
The last enemy to be eliminated is death.

New Heart English Bible
The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

Weymouth New Testament
The last enemy that is to be overthrown is Death;

World English Bible
The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

Young's Literal Translation
the last enemy is done away -- death;

Smith's Literal Translation
The last enemy, death, is left unemployed.

Weymouth New Testament
The last enemy that is to be overthrown is Death;

Worrell New Testament
As the last enemy, death is abolished;

https://biblehub.com/parallel/1_corinthians/15-26.htm

My wife says get off the computer. It is time for breakfast and your nap.

 

[TheLearner]

My wife says get off the computer. It is time for breakfast and your nap.

For those unaware, I also have a sleep disorder. such is life.

 

[CS1]

I don't think those verses mean what you say they mean for a variety of reasons.

1. Matthew 13 doesn't say it's eternal.

2. Matthew 24:46 speaks of 'eternal punishment." Death is an eternal punishment. Everyone else gets life.

You added the word death

3. Matthew 24:41 just says the fire is eternal.

the fire is in context to hell

4. Mark 9:48 does not speak of eternal conscious torment.


Mark 9:48 says where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ The full context is hell which is inverse 42 to 48

5. Mark 9:43, again only says the fire is forever, not the suffering. see verse 42-48

6. Jude 1:7, but Sodom and Gomorrah is not still burning. It's not that they are burning eternally.

7. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 supports eternal destruction. Eternal destruction is death.

You added the word death to 2thessalonians

8. Revelation 14:11 speaks only of the smoke going up forever. It doesn't say they have no rest day or night forever.

read it again and the full chapter thank you

Really read these verses carefully. We have a duty to not inject our biases into the scriptures.

Actually, it does. the mistake many make with Jude 1:7 is missing what it is saying:

Jude 1:7
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Yes, Sodom and Gomorrah the cities and people are no longer burning the location today is inhabited.

the example of Judgment like Sodom & Gomorrah is a small glim of what the eternal punishment will be in the final judgment.

Jude is writing to those who are not dead and who have not experienced hell. So Jude by the Holy Spirit is using Sodom & Gomorrah as an example as it states in the verse.

 

[Runningman]

Actually, it does. the mistake many make with Jude 1:7 is missing what it is saying:

Jude 1:7
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Yes, Sodom and Gomorrah the cities and people are no longer burning the location today is inhabited.

the example of Judgment like Sodom & Gomorrah is a small glim of what the eternal punishment will be in the final judgment.

Jude is writing to those who are not dead and who have not experienced hell. So Jude by the Holy Spirit is using Sodom & Gomorrah as an example as it states in the verse.

I added the word death because if only the righteous receive eternal life then it sounds like that's implying someone can't have eternal life experiencing torment. Eternal conscious torment would be eternal life, albeit separated from God. Still eternal life nonetheless.

Plus I'm recalling the verse in Revelation 20:14-15 where death, hell, and those not written in the book of life have a "second death."

 

[CS1]

I added the word death because if only the righteous receive eternal life then it sounds like that's implying someone can't have eternal life experiencing torment. Eternal conscious torment would be eternal life, albeit separated from God. Still eternal life nonetheless.

Plus I'm recalling the verse in Revelation 20:14-15 where death, hell, and those not written in the book of life have a "second death."

and the unrighteous eternal punishment as Jesus said

 

[CS1]

and the unrighteous eternal punishment as Jesus said

many dicriptions

of hell, death is only one and there is a constant wanting death yet it will not come= eternal torment as Jesus said

 

[Magenta]

One who ceases to exist is not being punishment after that.

When Nero used Christians as human torches was that torture?

The wickedness of heartless evil cruel men is quite evident in how inventive they can be in/with their methods of torture. Burning alive in a conscious state is one of them for sure. That anyone would ascribe such to God is disturbing. That such a belief is tightly held on such a widespread swath of Christendom even more so.

They have built high places to Baal on which to burn their children in the fire as offerings
to Baal— something I never commanded or mentioned, nor did it even enter My mind.

I hope you enjoy your breakfast and your nap

 

[Runningman]

and the unrighteous eternal punishment as Jesus said

The unrighteous don't have eternal life, right? So the eternal punishment wouldn't be burning forever without the possibility of it ending because they don't have eternal life. The only eternal punishment that fits the context is death. Death is a punishment and it is permanent, death is eternal punishment.

 

[CS1]

The unrighteous don't have eternal life, right? So the eternal punishment wouldn't be burning forever without the possibility of it ending because they don't have eternal life. The only eternal punishment that fits the context is death. Death is a punishment and it is permanent, death is eternal punishment.

they have eternal judgment and torment

" Eternal life " every believer has now while the flesh will die, the hope is the Resurrection. there is no LIFE in hell meaning it is a place where those in it desire death yet it will not come place hell is an eternal place with eternal consequences.

the punishment for sin is death that is why we die physically. God did not create us that way in the beginning. You can't have it both ways. if death was the end why did the blood of Abel cry out from the ground? And the Blood of Christ says a better thing than that of Abel's blood.

Jesus said it was eternal not me.



Matthew 25:31-46

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” . . . Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”



Jesus said these will go to eternal punishment. That word eternal in Greek means a place without end, Forever Jesus said this makes any other scriptural reference you want to. Jesus when HE is speaking IS the supreme authority over ALL.

Jesus taught on hell more than most topics. the argument is with the word Jesus said. and Matthew 25:31-46 is not the only paragraph Jesus has sid on the topic there are many parallel verses and other writers in both the Old and New Testament who speak of eternal judgment.

 

[Magenta]

Jesus said these will go to eternal punishment. That word eternal in Greek means a place without end, Forever Jesus said this makes any other scriptural reference you want to. Jesus when HE is speaking IS the supreme authority over ALL.

There are plenty of places in Holy Spirit breathed/inspired Scripture where eternal and forever do not mean without end but until God's purpose is accomplished. You can argue against this all day long until the cows come home but it will not change the facts... facts which are plainly laid out here, here, and here Those are links, btw They keep being presented and people keep ignoring them