Biblical Eternal Security vs 'Calvinistic Eternal Security' -by Gregg Jackson

[FreeGrace2]

what is the purpose of speaking about human freewill that has no power? ]
The purpose? To speak reality, the truth. The notion that IF free were true, it would have power is what is unreality.

Calvinists MUST describe free will as having power in order to prove that is wrong. Of course a free will with power is wrong.

But Calvinists cannot accept the truth of free will because it gets in the way of their incorrect understanding of God's sovereignty. To them, God's sovereignty means He makes all the choices and CAUSES all things. That's the only way they can defend their unbiblical doctrine of election.

what part of bondage do you understand as freewill?

This is really naive. Every slave has freedom to think whatever they want. Or didn't you think of that?

But that isn't the point of Paul's use of bondage. It wasn't about freedom to choose at all. Paul made the point that unbelievers can't choose to be righteous. They are slaves to sin.

Given that, do you think believers CAN'T sin???? Of course they can. Which is why we are commanded NOT to.

That is why Paul wrote this in Romans 6-
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.
16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

If you don't see choices here, you are just choosing to not see it. It's right in front of you.

 

[Kidron]

It's either yes or no. You can't admit that you stumble and sin even a bit, because in your mind you are perfect.

Notice this verse..

"Jesus became sin".

Notice this one.......the born again are the "righteousness of God, in Christ".

So, is there any sin in Christ?

Now one more time.....read this verse, carefully.

"As JESUS IS......so are the born again, in this World"..

Thats a FACT., that you can't comprehend, because you're ither not born again, or you are just terribly deceived.

 

[JerryInBoston]

Notice this verse..

"Jesus became sin".

Notice this one.......the born again are the "righteousness of God, in Christ".

So, is there any sin in Christ?

Now one more time.....read this verse, carefully.

"As JESUS IS......so are the born again, in this World"..

Thats a FACT., that you can't comprehend, because you ither not born again, or you are just terribly deceived.

Yes or no: do you sin?

 

[FreeGrace2]

if God had given man freewill He could not blame them for choosing

Talk about backward!! You have it exactly donkey backward. The ONLY REASON God holds man accountable is because man makes choices.

where do you read God said "behold I give you freewill"

It is clearly indicated in what God told the man and woman about what they could and couldn't eat in the garden.

If they didn't have any choice, who MADE them eat of the forbidden tree?

What God gave them was a command "don't eat from that tree" the command negates freewill.

Actually, it proves free will, which is just freedom of choice.

But you clearly have made the choice NOT to understand any of this.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your position is then, that God knew in advance that when HE gave man free will, that man was going to use their God given free will to murder, rape, rob, abuse, and commit every sin there is in the world.

Did God also knowing in advance of giving man free will which specific sins each man would commit?

Do you honestly think that God doesn't know everything, Jerry? Don't you believe the Bible?

If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 1 John 3:20

To "know everything" means omniscience. One of God's attributes.

 

[Kidron]

Yes or no: do you sin?

Why would i do that?

Listen to Paul., and not John when he's talking to unbelievers..


Paul said....>"Christ always gives me the Victory".

What is the Victory, Jerry?......Its this....>"over the world, the flesh, and the devil".

Notice that Paul said.........."CHRIST>.......ALWAYS..........gives me the Victory"

So, when Paul then teaches ....>"Do not use your LIBERTY....>(that is victory over sin).......for an occasion to the flesh......(to commit a carnal deed)......""

See that?
Thats the Power of the Grace of God, that delivers a Son of God // Daughter of Christ, from sin.
Im a Son of God.......Jerry.
For a long time.

This is why, i answered you......>"Why would i do that", when you asked me.

 

[JerryInBoston]

I understand that when you believe that "calling names" and "insulting" without a quote, seems to you to be a way to prove you are not spiritually deceived, is what you just tried.
It failed.

See, you do not understand """born again""", and that is on you, and now you throwing a tantrum of insults, is for me, a yawn.
Believe it.

I am born again, and I know I have zero righteousness of my own: only Jesus' righteousness covers me. And when I stumble and sin, I confess it to Jesus because HE is righteous, and HE is faithful and just to forgive me and cleanse me of all unrighteousness. You? You're perfectly sinless.

But, since you don't sin, youre perfectly righteous all on your own. Good luck with that.

 

[JerryInBoston]

Why would i do that?

Listen to Paul., and not John when he's talking to unbelievers..


Paul said....>"Christ always gives me the Victory".

What is the Victory, Jerry?......Its this....>"over the world, the flesh, and the devil".

Notice that Paul said.........."CHRIST>.......ALWAYS..........gives me the Victory"

So, when Paul then teaches ....>"Do not use your LIBERTY....>(that is victory over sin).......for an occasion to the flesh......(to commit a carnal deed)......""

See that?
Thats the Power of the Grace of God, that delivers a Son of God // Daughter of Christ, from sin.
Im a Son of God.......Jerry.
For a long time.

This is why, i answered you......>"Why would i do that", when you asked me.

It's a simple yes or no answer that you refuse to give: do you still sin? If you said yes, I'd know you had truth in you. If you said no, I'd know you were a liar. But you're a typical SDA that won't admit one way or the other because it goes against the teaching of your cult leader, EGW.

 

[JerryInBoston]

Do you honestly think that God doesn't know everything, Jerry? Don't you believe the Bible?

If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 1 John 3:20

To "know everything" means omniscience. One of God's attributes.

Follow along, cupcake. You're missing the point of my interrogatories.

 

[Kidron]

I HE is faithful and just to forgive me and cleanse me .

You dont yet understand that God....who is Christ on the Cross, "became sin".....2000 yrs ago.
So, you are trying to get God to forgive your sin, AGAIN.
However.......Christ already did this 2000 yrs ago, once and for all..... and when you are born again, you become "the righteousness of God in Christ" as the proof.

Jesus has your sin resolved 2000 yrs ago......and you have His Righteousness, forever. as 'eternal life".

= Welcome to Salvation. Its a GIFT.

Now, let me show you what you need to know about this "confessing sin", thingy.

1st... God is always kept at perfect peace with the born again, based on the Blood of Jesus being shed.

2nd......The blood of Jesus is always redeeming and cleansing. It never stops. "where sin abounds, Grace more Abounds".

Jesus blood was shed 2000 yrs ago and tomorrow it will save all who call on the name of Jesus.
See that?
And it keeps you "made righteous", also, tomorrow and forever.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Now lets look at this confessing obsession.

Most cults teach some type of.....>"here is what you have to do, to keep yourself saved",..... that denies the Cross and rejects the blood of Jesus.
Most denominations teach some theology of "self saving"., in place of : The Blood of Jesus Keeps you saved.

Here is something to know..........= Once you are born again, you are always born again.

Now, here is why you confess.....
Its because it makes you feel better.
It helps you get past your guilt trip. You get a relief from your condemnation.
So, its a mental game you're playing with yourself., and you've done it many many times.
See, you commit some work of the flesh........maybe you downloaded porn.....maybe you watched "Game of Thrones", and enjoyed the rape scene for 7 yrs..
But whatever it is that you enjoy that is a carnal deed........once you do it, you feel HORRIBLE.
So, you start that "guilt trip" remedy........You CONFESS AGAIN., not realizing that all your sin is on Christ and all His Righteousness is who you are "in Christ".
And you get relief, because that is the psychology you have learned how to perform on yourself.

And what does God get?
= NOTHING.
Why?
Because the blood of Jesus took care of that sin, same as last time, 2000 yrs ago.

And when you can see what i just taught you, you will have begun to take your very first step into REAL Faith and correct understanding of the Blood Atonement, and the Grace of God.

Jerry, ......That is God's Blood that was shed for your sin.
God's blood is Eternal payment for all your sin, 2000 yrs ago.
ALL.
Jesus "became" them all., and died for them ALL.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Joh 5:24 he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life
Joh 10:28 And I give them eternal life

Now you may have addressed these points at some time latter in this post but when I read through your comments these things came to mind.

1] In Joh 5:24 we see that belief is not a one time thing it is continuous.
2] In Joh 10:28 Jesus gives eternal life He does not force it upon anyone.

Do you feel that the eternal life is a guarantee or is it dependant upon continued faith. In other words can a person at some point reject Christ Jesus?

Yes, there are verses where "believe" is present tense. However, it seems way too many people think that the present tense means the action of the verb MUST continue in order for the results to continue.

When a person thinks a thought, or performs an action, it is ALWAYS in the present tense. The present tense simply means "right now" or "currently". You cannot think in the past or future tense. All you can to is remember thoughts that you ALREADY had, or what you MIGHT think in the future.

So, when a person understands the gospel and places their trust in Christ, that is done ALWAYS in the present tense.

The present tense does NOT mean continuous action necessarily. But it should be obvious that when a person hears something and believes it, it is a continous thought. We don't turn on or turn off our thoughts of what we believe. Unless we are totally unstable and in need of therapy.

Jesus made a point about "continuous action" in the parable of the soils. Luke 8:13 - Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

First, the bolded words mean the same thing. When the second soil 'falls away" it means they quit believing. iow, they fell away from their faith.

Second, the tense of "believe" used by Jesus is present tense. Yet He followed the present tense with "for a while".

Do you know what that means? It means that "for a while", they continued to believe. iow, they trusted in Christ continuously for a while. But there came a time when "testing" came, and what happened? They fell away form their faith. iow, they ceased to believe.

Third, the Bible also uses the aorist tense for 'believe' in a number of verses. This alone refutes the notion that the present tense means salvation lasts only as long as th faith lasts.

Paul's answer to the jailer's question of what he MUST DO to be saved was to "believe (aorist) in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved". The aorist excludes any concept of continuous action.

Rom 10:9 uses 'believe' in the aorist tense.

We also find evidence for this from 2 verses about who will be condemned.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

The reality is that condemnation is for those who "have not believed".

The words "have not believed" means "have never believed".

Because once a person HAS believed, you can't say they "have not believed" even if they do not believe at present.

The second soil would not be condemned by these 2 verses since Jesus said they "believed for a while".

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Do you honestly think that God doesn't know everything, Jerry? Don't you believe the Bible?

If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 1 John 3:20

To "know everything" means omniscience. One of God's attributes.

Follow along, cupcake. You're missing the point of my interrogatories.

But you don't have a point, Jerry. And you questions clearly suggested that you don't believe that God is omniscient.

 

[fredoheaven]

I do not agree we choose, God wills IN US to do of His good pleasure.

We are born again not by the will of the flesh nor by the will of man but by the will of God.

We know the will of God if the person believes/ receives Christ, but the will of the man is to reject/ not believe Christ. John 3:18

 

[JerryInBoston]

You dont yet understand that God....who is Christ on the Cross, "became sin".....2000 yrs ago.
So, you are trying to get God to forgive your sin, AGAIN.
However.......Christ already did this 2000 yrs ago, once and for all..... and when you are born again, you become "the righteousness of God in Christ" as the proof.

Jesus has your sin resolved 2000 yrs ago......and you have His Righteousness, forever. as 'eternal life".

= Welcome to Salvation. Its a GIFT.

Now, let me show you what you need to know about this "confessing sin", thingy.

1st... God is always kept at perfect peace with the born again, based on the Blood of Jesus being shed.

2nd......The blood of Jesus is always redeeming and cleansing. It never stops. "where sin abounds, Grace more Abounds".

Jesus blood was shed 2000 yrs ago and tomorrow it will save all who call on the name of Jesus.
See that?
And it keeps you "made righteous", also, tomorrow and forever.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Now lets look at this confessing obsession.

Most cults teach some type of.....>"here is what you have to do, to keep yourself saved",..... that denies the Cross and rejects the blood of Jesus.
Most denominations teach some theology of "self saving"., in place of : The Blood of Jesus Keeps you saved.

Here is something to know..........= Once you are born again, you are always born again.

Now, here is why you confess.....
Its because it makes you feel better.
It helps you get past your guilt trip. You get a relief from your condemnation.
So, its a mental game you're playing with yourself., and you've done it many many times.
See, you commit some work of the flesh........maybe you downloaded porn.....maybe you watched "Game of Thrones", and enjoyed the rape scene for 7 yrs..
But whatever it is that you enjoy that is a carnal deed........once you do it, you feel HORRIBLE.
So, you start that "guilt trip" remedy........You CONFESS AGAIN., not realizing that all your sin is on Christ and all His Righteousness is who you are "in Christ".
And you get relief, because that is the psychology you have learned how to perform on yourself.

And what does God get?
= NOTHING.
Why?
Because the blood of Jesus took care of that sin, same as last time, 2000 yrs ago.

And when you can see what i just taught you, you will have begun to take your very first step into REAL Faith and correct understanding of the Blood Atonement, and the Grace of God.

Jerry, ......That is God's Blood that was shed for your sin.
God's blood is Eternal payment for all your sin, 2000 yrs ago.
ALL.
Jesus "became" them all., and died for them ALL.

I get it now: you're a hypergrace antinomian. Those are two of the most unbiblical doctrines.

 

[JerryInBoston]

You dont yet understand that God....who is Christ on the Cross, "became sin".....2000 yrs ago.
So, you are trying to get God to forgive your sin, AGAIN.
However.......Christ already did this 2000 yrs ago, once and for all..... and when you are born again, you become "the righteousness of God in Christ" as the proof.

Jesus has your sin resolved 2000 yrs ago......and you have His Righteousness, forever. as 'eternal life".

= Welcome to Salvation. Its a GIFT.

Now, let me show you what you need to know about this "confessing sin", thingy.

1st... God is always kept at perfect peace with the born again, based on the Blood of Jesus being shed.

2nd......The blood of Jesus is always redeeming and cleansing. It never stops. "where sin abounds, Grace more Abounds".

Jesus blood was shed 2000 yrs ago and tomorrow it will save all who call on the name of Jesus.
See that?
And it keeps you "made righteous", also, tomorrow and forever.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Now lets look at this confessing obsession.

Most cults teach some type of.....>"here is what you have to do, to keep yourself saved",..... that denies the Cross and rejects the blood of Jesus.
Most denominations teach some theology of "self saving"., in place of : The Blood of Jesus Keeps you saved.

Here is something to know..........= Once you are born again, you are always born again.

Now, here is why you confess.....
Its because it makes you feel better.
It helps you get past your guilt trip. You get a relief from your condemnation.
So, its a mental game you're playing with yourself., and you've done it many many times.
See, you commit some work of the flesh........maybe you downloaded porn.....maybe you watched "Game of Thrones", and enjoyed the rape scene for 7 yrs..
But whatever it is that you enjoy that is a carnal deed........once you do it, you feel HORRIBLE.
So, you start that "guilt trip" remedy........You CONFESS AGAIN., not realizing that all your sin is on Christ and all His Righteousness is who you are "in Christ".
And you get relief, because that is the psychology you have learned how to perform on yourself.

And what does God get?
= NOTHING.
Why?
Because the blood of Jesus took care of that sin, same as last time, 2000 yrs ago.

And when you can see what i just taught you, you will have begun to take your very first step into REAL Faith and correct understanding of the Blood Atonement, and the Grace of God.

Jerry, ......That is God's Blood that was shed for your sin.
God's blood is Eternal payment for all your sin, 2000 yrs ago.
ALL.
Jesus "became" them all., and died for them ALL.

We who are saved confess our sins because we are saved, and because we are saved we confess our sins. You don't confess your sins, or even admit you do sin, because you are an unsaved heretic.

I now know all I need to know about you. Now you are ignored.

 

[JerryInBoston]

FreeGrace2 said:
Do you honestly think that God doesn't know everything, Jerry? Don't you believe the Bible?

If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 1 John 3:20

To "know everything" means omniscience. One of God's attributes.

But you don't have a point, Jerry. And you questions clearly suggested that you don't believe that God is omniscient.

I know God is omniscient, and that we are dead in sin, and therefore unable to come to the cross unless God gifts us with faith.

 

[Evmur]

Talk about backward!! You have it exactly donkey backward. The ONLY REASON God holds man accountable is because man makes choices.


It is clearly indicated in what God told the man and woman about what they could and couldn't eat in the garden.

If they didn't have any choice, who MADE them eat of the forbidden tree?


Actually, it proves free will, which is just freedom of choice.

But you clearly have made the choice NOT to understand any of this.

it proves that man has a will ... I never doubted it, what I dispute is that it is free. Man is a servant, Paul actually says slave, to whosoever we obey. If man had freewill there would be no consequences, the consequences of his disobedience were immediate and they were huge.

Adam's will was that he would be like God the reality was he was cast out of his beautiful home and must now earn his living by the sweat of his brow. So he did have a will but it was not free.

 

[Evmur]

Talk about backward!! You have it exactly donkey backward. The ONLY REASON God holds man accountable is because man makes choices.


It is clearly indicated in what God told the man and woman about what they could and couldn't eat in the garden.

If they didn't have any choice, who MADE them eat of the forbidden tree?


Actually, it proves free will, which is just freedom of choice.

But you clearly have made the choice NOT to understand any of this.

Did you create yourself? did God come and consult with you as to whether you should be born? where you would be born to whom? how many toes would you like?

What then is God a tyrant? are we mere robots? why don't folks become angry about this, that God should create us out of His own good will?

But when it comes to the much higher spiritual life, the new birth, suddenly God must play the gentleman, He must come and curtsy before us and ask us right nicely "please dear sir, may I save you today?"

 

[Justified]

You are leaving the consequences out of the equation "thou shalt surely die" dead men have no freewill.

If Adam could escape the consequences then indeed he would have had freewill. THAT'S just how the devil tricked him, he took the consequences out of the equation

"you will not surely die" He was kidding Adam that he had freewill in the matter. The doctrine of human freewill is that deception.

Perhaps you should look at the text in context. What did God say to Adam? For that we can look to Gen 3:17-19
Gen 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat of it': "Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.
Gen 3:18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field.
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return."
Adam died spiritually, he was separated form his relationship with God. As a result of the fall man did not lose the ability to make free will choices. Note what God said to Cain:
Gen 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it." God wanted Cain to make a choice, that is free will after the fall.

A question for you, do you have a conscience? If you say you do then you are agreeing that man has a free will. A conscience is "self-knowledge, or judgment of right and wrong; or the faculty, power or principle within us, which decides on the lawfulness or unlawfulness of our own actions and affections, and instantly approves or condemns them." Webster

A theological view has taught that man does not have a free will but that is not biblical. In that theological view man is unable to make any choices that are not scripted, you may disagree but since God is sovereign and in that theology that means He determines all thing that happen then He controls every choice for good or for evil.

 

[Justified]

it proves that man has a will ... I never doubted it, what I dispute is that it is free. Man is a servant, Paul actually says slave, to whosoever we obey. If man had freewill there would be no consequences, the consequences of his disobedience were immediate and they were huge.

Adam's will was that he would be like God the reality was he was cast out of his beautiful home and must now earn his living by the sweat of his brow. So he did have a will but it was not free.

So now your saying that made is held responsible for things he has no control over. What kind of theology do you have. You have made God sound the same if not worse than satan. What is wrong with your logic. Step back form the edge and take a serious look at what you espouse.
Man has consequences just because he does have a free will.