Has a lie crept in to our bible Does God allow demons to torment people
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I am not sure, as I have not read every post here 
Especially after it became clear that the OP is intent on casting doubt on the Bible while upholding the Quran.
YOUR RANTS WILL NOT BE HERD AND NEITHER WILL YOUR GAMES.
His words reflected back to him once again
Especially after it became clear that the OP is intent on casting doubt on the Bible while upholding the Quran.
YOUR RANTS WILL NOT BE HERD AND NEITHER WILL YOUR GAMES.
His words reflected back to him once again
@Pilgrimshope @JaumeJ @1ofthem @Absolutely @AandW @Mem @Dino246 @Magenta @Lucy-Pevensie @glen55 @Gideon300 @Runningman @Ahwatukee @tourist. @Blade @Rolly @Nehemiah6
I read the whole of the holy quran and researched it, out of all the back to front scripture i found one back to front scripture. that quotes in chapter 53 of the holy quran, God is but two bow lenghts away. i concluded from all the other back to front scritures that the whole of the holy quran had been turned from an inner relationship to an outer relationship (God told me this). It was then i realsised God is but two bow lenghts away. but inside your heart (God told me this), yup the bow exists between the heart and mind of the believer,, its the ability to raise treasures from the heart to the mind. in the form of good feeling and light and so much more.
Yup this was when the eyes of my heart was opended, and has stayed awake ever since, God spoke to me in heaven he took me there in a dream and told me raising treasures from the heart with my holy bow you will defeat all demons, that come your way on earth. ever since then i have been performing spiritual exorcism.
I then concluded that isnt it a good Job you get to know your enemy as i would never of been told by God we have a holy bow in our heart that can fire a light into every situation. Quite amazing really. I started to bow a fealing up and down from my heart. and wow it became a wow bow.
God showed me a passage that day to his ark and his holy bow. he then took me to heaven and showed me how the intervention of arkbow works in our our heart and mother nature its self. and showed me a three way intervention in his ark between 3 worlds. let me know if any of you want to hear more of this amazing story. God called it an arcbow and showed me where it had been divided bewtween the french and english lauguage. arc means bow in french and english when they should be tegether, God told me satan has devided the ark of the intervention for all humanity which is my holy arcbow that is stored in his ark for all humanity. He told me i never devided the lauguage satan did.
I read the whole of the holy quran and researched it, out of all the back to front scripture i found one back to front scripture. that quotes in chapter 53 of the holy quran, God is but two bow lenghts away. i concluded from all the other back to front scritures that the whole of the holy quran had been turned from an inner relationship to an outer relationship (God told me this). It was then i realsised God is but two bow lenghts away. but inside your heart (God told me this), yup the bow exists between the heart and mind of the believer,, its the ability to raise treasures from the heart to the mind. in the form of good feeling and light and so much more.
Yup this was when the eyes of my heart was opended, and has stayed awake ever since, God spoke to me in heaven he took me there in a dream and told me raising treasures from the heart with my holy bow you will defeat all demons, that come your way on earth. ever since then i have been performing spiritual exorcism.
I then concluded that isnt it a good Job you get to know your enemy as i would never of been told by God we have a holy bow in our heart that can fire a light into every situation. Quite amazing really. I started to bow a fealing up and down from my heart. and wow it became a wow bow.
God showed me a passage that day to his ark and his holy bow. he then took me to heaven and showed me how the intervention of arkbow works in our our heart and mother nature its self. and showed me a three way intervention in his ark between 3 worlds. let me know if any of you want to hear more of this amazing story. God called it an arcbow and showed me where it had been divided bewtween the french and english lauguage. arc means bow in french and english when they should be tegether, God told me satan has devided the ark of the intervention for all humanity which is my holy arcbow that is stored in his ark for all humanity. He told me i never devided the lauguage satan did.
Hold on I want to reply to this one to 🙂
Statement: on the same note, you would have to say that the demon must get permission from God first befor they possess a person or torment them, ?
Rebuttal: Incorrect, Satan and his cohorts already have de facto permission to act as evilly (<- Is that even a word) as they please, humanity live within enemy territory, Adam handed control over to Satan when he chose self determination over Gods. Are we not a fallen people in a fallen world stalked by a fallen supernatural being, we are the ones who give permission to Satan, when we refuse or abuse Gods gracious offer to place his protective hand upon us.
Statement: The light of Jesus would be what casts out the demon,
Rebuttal: The Holy Spirit casts out demons in accordance with Christ’s authority.
Quote: John 1.5 states that the darkness (demons) <- Not Demon specific, Darkness is a catch all for everything that oppose Gods perfect will, ( Sin, Evil, unholy ect.. ) has never been able to comprehend the light. which means never been able to understand the light. and never means never. Never also means from the beginning the darkness has never been able to understand the light. never being able to understand the light (means never obeying the light <- Please provide scripture to defend this preposition, the transliteration of the text disagrees with your translation of it)
You cannot use John 1:5 as a proof text once you’ve taken it out of context.
In the beginning God separated the darkness (demons)<- Not Demons, darkness here is transliterated from choshek , (Obscurity,Secret place,night) from the earth with his light, (meaning it is the the light that cast out demons and not so much the command, <- transliteration of light here is ‘owr, (Illumination,luminary,Clear,Bright,Daylight)
You can’t just arbitrarily decide to change the meaning of a word to suit your narrative or context that’s called Eisegesis.
The light that shines in a believer is what can cast out a demon in a possessed person, <- A person can be possesses, a Saint in dwelt with the Holy Spirit cannot, possession supposes control, no demon can control God nor reside within his Kingdom. not so much the command that comes from the believer. To stop our selfs from being taking over from a demon there is so much we have to do and know. If we dont know and do, the darkness will dwell there (<- only if this space is vacant, you cannot possess both God and Satan simultaneously think logically not dogmatically )Ignorance is bliss to a demon, ignorance certainly inst bliss to God, Because he came down as Jesus and trained a whole bunch of people on how to defeat demons, ( Yet he never trained anyone on how to cast a Demon from a believer) with actions we need to apply everyday. and what we can do to put up with there torment.
(Christians cannot be demon possessed. There is a distinct difference between being possessed by a demon and being oppressed or influenced by a demon.)
“God opposes the proud (who is proud = satan) ( <- Me to Prides my biggest fault)
but shows favor to the humble.”[a]
Agree-
6 Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. 7 Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.
Sort of Agree-
8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9 Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings. (all christians being made to suffer by the enemy is not something Jesus likes but demons do it anyway).
10 And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. 11 To him be the power for ever and ever. Amen. (Jesus telling us what we must do to defeat disobeying demons who do not act on Gods authority (<- Principalities are at war with God as they are in direct rebellion,
but yet still attack his children)
This verse shows us evidence of that conflict yet ALL obey when commanded,
Daniel 10:12 through 13
Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia
Forgive me for the Grammar and clumsy editing I have a busy life to.
Statement: on the same note, you would have to say that the demon must get permission from God first befor they possess a person or torment them, ?
Rebuttal: Incorrect, Satan and his cohorts already have de facto permission to act as evilly (<- Is that even a word) as they please, humanity live within enemy territory, Adam handed control over to Satan when he chose self determination over Gods. Are we not a fallen people in a fallen world stalked by a fallen supernatural being, we are the ones who give permission to Satan, when we refuse or abuse Gods gracious offer to place his protective hand upon us.
Statement: The light of Jesus would be what casts out the demon,
Rebuttal: The Holy Spirit casts out demons in accordance with Christ’s authority.
Quote: John 1.5 states that the darkness (demons) <- Not Demon specific, Darkness is a catch all for everything that oppose Gods perfect will, ( Sin, Evil, unholy ect.. ) has never been able to comprehend the light. which means never been able to understand the light. and never means never. Never also means from the beginning the darkness has never been able to understand the light. never being able to understand the light (means never obeying the light <- Please provide scripture to defend this preposition, the transliteration of the text disagrees with your translation of it)
You cannot use John 1:5 as a proof text once you’ve taken it out of context.
In the beginning God separated the darkness (demons)<- Not Demons, darkness here is transliterated from choshek , (Obscurity,Secret place,night) from the earth with his light, (meaning it is the the light that cast out demons and not so much the command, <- transliteration of light here is ‘owr, (Illumination,luminary,Clear,Bright,Daylight)
You can’t just arbitrarily decide to change the meaning of a word to suit your narrative or context that’s called Eisegesis.
The light that shines in a believer is what can cast out a demon in a possessed person, <- A person can be possesses, a Saint in dwelt with the Holy Spirit cannot, possession supposes control, no demon can control God nor reside within his Kingdom. not so much the command that comes from the believer. To stop our selfs from being taking over from a demon there is so much we have to do and know. If we dont know and do, the darkness will dwell there (<- only if this space is vacant, you cannot possess both God and Satan simultaneously think logically not dogmatically )Ignorance is bliss to a demon, ignorance certainly inst bliss to God, Because he came down as Jesus and trained a whole bunch of people on how to defeat demons, ( Yet he never trained anyone on how to cast a Demon from a believer) with actions we need to apply everyday. and what we can do to put up with there torment.
(Christians cannot be demon possessed. There is a distinct difference between being possessed by a demon and being oppressed or influenced by a demon.)
“God opposes the proud (who is proud = satan) ( <- Me to Prides my biggest fault)
but shows favor to the humble.”[a]
Agree-
6 Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. 7 Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.
Sort of Agree-
8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9 Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings. (all christians being made to suffer by the enemy is not something Jesus likes but demons do it anyway).
10 And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. 11 To him be the power for ever and ever. Amen. (Jesus telling us what we must do to defeat disobeying demons who do not act on Gods authority (<- Principalities are at war with God as they are in direct rebellion,
but yet still attack his children)
This verse shows us evidence of that conflict yet ALL obey when commanded,
Daniel 10:12 through 13
Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia
Forgive me for the Grammar and clumsy editing I have a busy life to.
There's your answer, PH
Considering that the Quran is Satanic and its adherents anti-Christs in denying the resurrection!
For: if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
Considering that the Quran is Satanic and its adherents anti-Christs in denying the resurrection!
For: if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
from Islam to Wicca those doctrines are meant to deceive and implant lies and deceptions
“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;”
1 Timothy 4:1 KJV
I certainly hope people take seriously that spiritual enemies exist and work into our minds and hearts
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I dont follow any other religion but christianity.but Judging by your last responce i dont think you are following christianity. more like following the beast. im really sickened by your responce that God allows satan to be as evil as he wants to be and even gives him the permission, do you know how sick that is.
There's your answer, PH
Considering that the Quran is Satanic and its adherents anti-Christs
in denying the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ our Lord!
For: if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
Considering that the Quran is Satanic and its adherents anti-Christs
in denying the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ our Lord!
For: if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
and dont say it wasnt aimed at me, its obvious that youve turned on me, i just shared a beautiful story with you about heaven and you come back with a responce like this.
There's your answer, PH
Considering that the Quran is Satanic and its adherents anti-Christs
in denying the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ our Lord!
For: if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
Considering that the Quran is Satanic and its adherents anti-Christs
in denying the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ our Lord!
For: if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
The quran also mentions the Torah, the Psalms of David, and the Gospel of Jesus.
And dont even think for one minute i am defending the quran nor do i want to talk about it. because theres a lot of dark stuff mixed in with it. and the clear words of satan that is in it that decieves many.
I don’t really know how to respond to you , you don’t seem to hear what others have to say and certainly don’t want to know what’s in scripture
“And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear.”
Revelation 13:4-9 KJV
You should consider hearing rather than speaking sometimes because God made a way out of that situation above This situation the church Faces
“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
Revelation 12:17 KJV
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
1 Peter 5:8-9 KJV
you don’t understand what I think because you don’t open your ears to scripture we mankind allowed Satan his dominion when we followed his rule rather than Gods
we are the ones who allowed Satan power not God he has given us the gospel to give us back freedom and doninion so we can overcome Satan and the world
I don’t think you get what I say usually so when you respond with things like this ot just continually wastes time when you invite me and then repetitively go to try same things nothing involving scripture but visions you had from the quoran and how the Bible is full of lies
you think that because you aren’t willing to believe it so to you “it must not be true it’s lies “ because you don’t understand it .
the key is to understand that you have things wrong , and I have things wrong , and Jesus has things right , the scripture is meant to change what you think and believe it’s not that you are supposed to correct the Bible but you are supposed to conform your belief to what it says that’s why belief saves is because it changes us at thy core
“And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear.”
Revelation 13:4-9 KJV
You should consider hearing rather than speaking sometimes because God made a way out of that situation above This situation the church Faces
“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
Revelation 12:17 KJV
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
1 Peter 5:8-9 KJV
you don’t understand what I think because you don’t open your ears to scripture we mankind allowed Satan his dominion when we followed his rule rather than Gods
we are the ones who allowed Satan power not God he has given us the gospel to give us back freedom and doninion so we can overcome Satan and the world
I don’t think you get what I say usually so when you respond with things like this ot just continually wastes time when you invite me and then repetitively go to try same things nothing involving scripture but visions you had from the quoran and how the Bible is full of lies
you think that because you aren’t willing to believe it so to you “it must not be true it’s lies “ because you don’t understand it .
the key is to understand that you have things wrong , and I have things wrong , and Jesus has things right , the scripture is meant to change what you think and believe it’s not that you are supposed to correct the Bible but you are supposed to conform your belief to what it says that’s why belief saves is because it changes us at thy core
Mohammad was not a contemporary of Jesus. He was born 535 years after Jesus died and was resurrected. Muhammad and his family had access to the scriptures. He even called believers "people of the book". In short, Muhammad copied the parts of the scriptures that furthered his goal to unify the Arabs under one of their 360+ idols. He first began with the lineage of Ishmael, stating that he, and not Isaac, was the child that received Abraham's inheritance.
To suggest this is the reason why God gives satan permission to do as much evil as he likes is an Absolute stinking lie from the pits of hells that gives power to satan, i can tell you satanists who worship the beast love this passage and get off on it. The dragon came down to kill Jesus as a baby and failed.
Heres a better account for you from a biblical scholar.
Many people heard the wonderful story of Christ’s incarnation, and some understood it for the very first time. But the version of the Christmas story that most haven’t heard, the one that even many Christians don’t seem to understand is the one found in Revelation 12.
It is this account that guards Matthew’s and Luke’s from the dangers of sentimentality. It keeps our vision of the incarnation from getting dislodged from the broader drama of redemption. And it reminds us that Christ’s Advent to earth was nothing less than a strategic, decisive military move in the raging cosmic battle between darkness and light. This is the full-orbed Christmas story that we need reminding of all year round.
Let’s look at this passage, think about the cast of characters, and then ponder three important lessons for today.
And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.
7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. 12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”
13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. (Revelation 12:1)
There are three main characters in this passage: the woman, the dragon, and the child.
The woman (described in vv. 1-2) is clothed with the sun, with the moon is beneath her feet, and seven stars crowning her head. Who is she? Probably not Mary, but Israel. Verse 2 has clear echoes of Genesis 37, the passage about Joseph’s dream where the twelve stars represented the twelve sons of Jacob. John seems to be identifying this woman with Israel, God’s covenant people. The woman’s pregnancy and agonizing birth pangs point to the sufferings of God’s people as they awaited the Messiah, but also deeply resonated with the suffering saints who originally read Revelation.
Verse 3 introduces another character, a “great red dragon” possessed of both worldly power (all those heads and crowns!) and deep, unrelenting hatred and hostility towards the woman and her child. If it wasn’t already clear, verse 9 removes all doubt: the dragon is “the ancient serpent” the devil himself, “Satan, the deceiver of the whole world.” This not only identifies him with the serpent in Genesis 3, but also shows his antagonism towards God’s people, and especially towards the child of the woman, whom he seeks to devour.
And who might this child be? Read verse 5 again:“She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne.” This, of course, is Jesus the Messiah.
So what’s going on here? This passage uses heavily symbolic language to describe Satan’s attempts to destroy the Christ. Remember the massacre in Bethlehem? Remember the forty days in the wilderness? Remember the crucifixion?
But John is sounding another note as well. He says that this child rules the nations with a rod of iron (quoting Psalm 2) and is snatched up to God and his throne. Far from being destroyed by the dragon, this child shares the throne of God! This child is none other than Jesus the Christ (v. 10), the crucified Lamb (v. 11), the resurrected, exalted, and enthroned King.
But what does it all mean? Revelation is notoriously difficult to understand – so weird, in fact, that most of us just avoid it altogether. And yet, it is still God’s word for the church. And though interpreters may disagree on some of the details, the main point is clear and contains three very important lessons for us. continued
Heres a better account for you from a biblical scholar.
Many people heard the wonderful story of Christ’s incarnation, and some understood it for the very first time. But the version of the Christmas story that most haven’t heard, the one that even many Christians don’t seem to understand is the one found in Revelation 12.
It is this account that guards Matthew’s and Luke’s from the dangers of sentimentality. It keeps our vision of the incarnation from getting dislodged from the broader drama of redemption. And it reminds us that Christ’s Advent to earth was nothing less than a strategic, decisive military move in the raging cosmic battle between darkness and light. This is the full-orbed Christmas story that we need reminding of all year round.
Let’s look at this passage, think about the cast of characters, and then ponder three important lessons for today.
And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.
7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. 12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”
13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. (Revelation 12:1)
There are three main characters in this passage: the woman, the dragon, and the child.
The woman (described in vv. 1-2) is clothed with the sun, with the moon is beneath her feet, and seven stars crowning her head. Who is she? Probably not Mary, but Israel. Verse 2 has clear echoes of Genesis 37, the passage about Joseph’s dream where the twelve stars represented the twelve sons of Jacob. John seems to be identifying this woman with Israel, God’s covenant people. The woman’s pregnancy and agonizing birth pangs point to the sufferings of God’s people as they awaited the Messiah, but also deeply resonated with the suffering saints who originally read Revelation.
Verse 3 introduces another character, a “great red dragon” possessed of both worldly power (all those heads and crowns!) and deep, unrelenting hatred and hostility towards the woman and her child. If it wasn’t already clear, verse 9 removes all doubt: the dragon is “the ancient serpent” the devil himself, “Satan, the deceiver of the whole world.” This not only identifies him with the serpent in Genesis 3, but also shows his antagonism towards God’s people, and especially towards the child of the woman, whom he seeks to devour.
And who might this child be? Read verse 5 again:“She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne.” This, of course, is Jesus the Messiah.
So what’s going on here? This passage uses heavily symbolic language to describe Satan’s attempts to destroy the Christ. Remember the massacre in Bethlehem? Remember the forty days in the wilderness? Remember the crucifixion?
But John is sounding another note as well. He says that this child rules the nations with a rod of iron (quoting Psalm 2) and is snatched up to God and his throne. Far from being destroyed by the dragon, this child shares the throne of God! This child is none other than Jesus the Christ (v. 10), the crucified Lamb (v. 11), the resurrected, exalted, and enthroned King.
But what does it all mean? Revelation is notoriously difficult to understand – so weird, in fact, that most of us just avoid it altogether. And yet, it is still God’s word for the church. And though interpreters may disagree on some of the details, the main point is clear and contains three very important lessons for us. continued
1. First, this passage points us to the defeat of evil in the incarnation, suffering, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Though the passage begins with a war in heaven (v. 4a, expanded in vv. 7-9), the dragon is defeated and thrown down! The details of the passage hint first at the primordial defeat of Satan, when he was first thrown out of heaven (vv. 7-9). Then verses 10-11 proclaim his decisive defeat, as a loud voice proclaims:
Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.
Satan is conquered, vanquished, defeated! How? By the blood of the Lamb! This points us to the cross. That’s where the decisive victory was won, and because Christ conquered Satan there, the “devil knows his time is short” (v. 12). He’s like a feisty snake pinned to the ground by a huge boulder, waiting for the sharp blade of a hoe to finally take his head off once and for all. Yes, his bite is still poisonous – but his power is limited and will soon come to an end.
And that means that evil can be defeated right here and right now, in your heart and mine, today. Wesley understood this well, writing,
Come, Desire of nations, come,
Fix in us Thy humble home;
Rise, the woman’s conqu’ring Seed,
Bruise in us the serpent’s head.
2. This passage also shows us how God preserves the church through suffering. This story, written to the suffering church (remember, Christians were still being fed to the lions in those days), is all about the suffering church at the hands of Satan. In keeping with his war against heaven, and his hostility towards Jesus at his birth, Satan is depicted as the serpentine dragon who continues to pursue and persecute the people of God. You can see this as he chases her into the wilderness in verse 14, tries to carry her away with a flood in verse 15, and unleashes his fury against the woman and her offspring in verse 17.
But through it all, God preserves his people! Though the woman is chased into the wilderness, God has prepared a place for her and she is actually “nourished.” He gives her “eagle’s wings,” almost definitely a reference to the original exodus, when God rescued his suffering people from Egypt (see Ex. 19:4; Deut. 32:11).
But God not only rescues and nourishes his people; he also puts a limit on their suffering, which is probably the point of the 1,260 days. I know some think this is a literal 3 ½ years of tribulation. Maybe, maybe not. But either way, don’t let that distract you from the main point. This number, whatever else it may mean, shows us that the suffering of the church is temporary, short, and limited.
3. Finally, this passage shows us how to communicate the gospel to our world. I don’t mean that we need to speak about a red dragon and a conquering child (though, that’s not a bad idea!). So, what do I mean?
Well, biblical scholars point out that John was using symbolism and imagery that was very well known in the ancient world. People were very familiar with pagan stories about the conflict between a dragon and a child. What seems strange to us was as embedded in their cultural folklore as the stories of Jack and the Beanstalk or Tolkien’s Hobbit and Lord of the Rings are in ours. But John was investing this mythology with new meaning and significance.
This is what C. S. Lewis meant when he talked about myth becoming fact. This is part of our job. We’ve got to learn how to take the mythologies and stories of our culture and show people that it is only in Jesus that we see the ultimate fulfillment of the deep hopes and yearnings that lurk beneath our greatest myths and stories. Wesley, once again, got it right in one of his Advent hymns:
Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.
Satan is conquered, vanquished, defeated! How? By the blood of the Lamb! This points us to the cross. That’s where the decisive victory was won, and because Christ conquered Satan there, the “devil knows his time is short” (v. 12). He’s like a feisty snake pinned to the ground by a huge boulder, waiting for the sharp blade of a hoe to finally take his head off once and for all. Yes, his bite is still poisonous – but his power is limited and will soon come to an end.
And that means that evil can be defeated right here and right now, in your heart and mine, today. Wesley understood this well, writing,
Come, Desire of nations, come,
Fix in us Thy humble home;
Rise, the woman’s conqu’ring Seed,
Bruise in us the serpent’s head.
2. This passage also shows us how God preserves the church through suffering. This story, written to the suffering church (remember, Christians were still being fed to the lions in those days), is all about the suffering church at the hands of Satan. In keeping with his war against heaven, and his hostility towards Jesus at his birth, Satan is depicted as the serpentine dragon who continues to pursue and persecute the people of God. You can see this as he chases her into the wilderness in verse 14, tries to carry her away with a flood in verse 15, and unleashes his fury against the woman and her offspring in verse 17.
But through it all, God preserves his people! Though the woman is chased into the wilderness, God has prepared a place for her and she is actually “nourished.” He gives her “eagle’s wings,” almost definitely a reference to the original exodus, when God rescued his suffering people from Egypt (see Ex. 19:4; Deut. 32:11).
But God not only rescues and nourishes his people; he also puts a limit on their suffering, which is probably the point of the 1,260 days. I know some think this is a literal 3 ½ years of tribulation. Maybe, maybe not. But either way, don’t let that distract you from the main point. This number, whatever else it may mean, shows us that the suffering of the church is temporary, short, and limited.
3. Finally, this passage shows us how to communicate the gospel to our world. I don’t mean that we need to speak about a red dragon and a conquering child (though, that’s not a bad idea!). So, what do I mean?
Well, biblical scholars point out that John was using symbolism and imagery that was very well known in the ancient world. People were very familiar with pagan stories about the conflict between a dragon and a child. What seems strange to us was as embedded in their cultural folklore as the stories of Jack and the Beanstalk or Tolkien’s Hobbit and Lord of the Rings are in ours. But John was investing this mythology with new meaning and significance.
This is what C. S. Lewis meant when he talked about myth becoming fact. This is part of our job. We’ve got to learn how to take the mythologies and stories of our culture and show people that it is only in Jesus that we see the ultimate fulfillment of the deep hopes and yearnings that lurk beneath our greatest myths and stories. Wesley, once again, got it right in one of his Advent hymns:
I’m going to hazard a guess that English is not your first language, so let me start by offing a little wisdom in relation to it, try not to start your opening sentence with a dismissal, or condescension, it’s starts the conversation off on the wrong foot, rather lead with a simple inquiry this offers the recipient the benefit of the doubt, it’s all about catching more flies with honey, ok then we’ll good question it’s always beneficial to be Berean.
I’m also going to assume if that alright that we can both agree there is a distinct difference between the saved and the lost, those who are aligned with God and those who oppose Him.
John 3:16 through 18, the most well known verse in the Bible,
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Those who choose not to believe in Jesus are already condemned and those who do choose to believe in Jesus are saved from… What? The Darkness and all that entails maybe, (Satan and His Cohorts?) 🤔 if someone is already condemned then whom would they be a slave to? Who is their Father?
(John 8:44)
There is not a multitude of choices, it’s either God or Satan, there is no other alternative, God always has our greater good in mind, and promises to stand with us, the question then is why do we need His overt protection at all?I’ts because we live in a fallen world that wants to hurt us and often does because its Evil and Evil beings roam around on it. Every time Satan uses us to hurt ourselves or others he doesn’t have to go petition God for approval, he just expresses his nature.
Both Job 1:10 and Luke 22:31-32 support your position, I understand that and I’m good with it because I’m not suggesting that there aren’t times when Satan isn’t required to get permission from God to act against us, I’m proposing that these are exceptions to the rule not the rule.
Then let’s look at Psalm 91,
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. The Saved
2 I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
The Saved
3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. The Saved
4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. The Saved
5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
Only The Saved Are Safe
6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. Only The Saved Are Safe
7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. Desolation For The Lost
8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. You See The Destruction Of The Lost
9 Because thou hast made the Lord, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation; The Saved
10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
Only The Saved Are Safe
11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
Only For The Saved
12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone. Only The Saved
13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet. Only The Saved
14 Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
This is The Condition For All The Previous Assurances
15 He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
This is The Condition For All The Previous Assurances
16 With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.
And The Reward
So Gods protection for mankind is directly connected to our Love for God and our faithfulness toward Him,
All that other death destruction and perishing is guaranteed to occur, as Gods perfect Judgment unfolds, why would Satan need to secure permission to possess what is already His, if we do nothing the status que remains and we remain with Satan as our father, prince and God, ones master can do with his property as he sees fit, why would he need to ask the permission of another? God may love the world yet he won’t force anyone to receive his protection, it’s is us who ask him to intercede.
Now to the faithful God says in,
1 Corinthians 10:13, There hath no temptation taken hold of you but such as is common to man. But God is faithful; He will not suffer you to be tempted beyond that which ye are able to bear, but with the temptation will also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
He gives us a way to endure this fallen world we’re Satan roams free as a lion and we’re we can be fully influenced, oppressed, and Hurt.
Sometimes God is Merciful and doesn’t give us what we deserve, yet sometimes He does give us what we deserve, the key point is that we all deserve death, we shouldn’t be calling the bad in our lives unjustified, we should accept it and seek way out of it, there is only the one path as you well know.
I’m also going to assume if that alright that we can both agree there is a distinct difference between the saved and the lost, those who are aligned with God and those who oppose Him.
John 3:16 through 18, the most well known verse in the Bible,
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Those who choose not to believe in Jesus are already condemned and those who do choose to believe in Jesus are saved from… What? The Darkness and all that entails maybe, (Satan and His Cohorts?) 🤔 if someone is already condemned then whom would they be a slave to? Who is their Father?
(John 8:44)
There is not a multitude of choices, it’s either God or Satan, there is no other alternative, God always has our greater good in mind, and promises to stand with us, the question then is why do we need His overt protection at all?I’ts because we live in a fallen world that wants to hurt us and often does because its Evil and Evil beings roam around on it. Every time Satan uses us to hurt ourselves or others he doesn’t have to go petition God for approval, he just expresses his nature.
Both Job 1:10 and Luke 22:31-32 support your position, I understand that and I’m good with it because I’m not suggesting that there aren’t times when Satan isn’t required to get permission from God to act against us, I’m proposing that these are exceptions to the rule not the rule.
Then let’s look at Psalm 91,
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. The Saved
2 I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
The Saved
3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. The Saved
4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. The Saved
5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
Only The Saved Are Safe
6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. Only The Saved Are Safe
7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. Desolation For The Lost
8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. You See The Destruction Of The Lost
9 Because thou hast made the Lord, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation; The Saved
10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
Only The Saved Are Safe
11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
Only For The Saved
12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone. Only The Saved
13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet. Only The Saved
14 Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
This is The Condition For All The Previous Assurances
15 He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
This is The Condition For All The Previous Assurances
16 With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.
And The Reward
So Gods protection for mankind is directly connected to our Love for God and our faithfulness toward Him,
All that other death destruction and perishing is guaranteed to occur, as Gods perfect Judgment unfolds, why would Satan need to secure permission to possess what is already His, if we do nothing the status que remains and we remain with Satan as our father, prince and God, ones master can do with his property as he sees fit, why would he need to ask the permission of another? God may love the world yet he won’t force anyone to receive his protection, it’s is us who ask him to intercede.
Now to the faithful God says in,
1 Corinthians 10:13, There hath no temptation taken hold of you but such as is common to man. But God is faithful; He will not suffer you to be tempted beyond that which ye are able to bear, but with the temptation will also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
He gives us a way to endure this fallen world we’re Satan roams free as a lion and we’re we can be fully influenced, oppressed, and Hurt.
Sometimes God is Merciful and doesn’t give us what we deserve, yet sometimes He does give us what we deserve, the key point is that we all deserve death, we shouldn’t be calling the bad in our lives unjustified, we should accept it and seek way out of it, there is only the one path as you well know.
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