Biblical Eternal Security vs 'Calvinistic Eternal Security' -by Gregg Jackson

[FreeGrace2]

I have always maintained that one cannot "lose" their salvation, but that they can cast it away.

Do you have a verse that shows that a believer can "cast away", or "give away" or "forfeit" their salvation?

The Scriptures say this in many places. We must abide in the Vine.

Actually, John 15 is about fellowship, not salvation. It seems a lot of believers are confused about that. Before Jesus said to abide in Him and He chose the 11, He began ch 15 by assuring the 11 that they were already saved (clean). This proves that "abiding" is not about staying saved.

This is not a hard thing. Jesus requires us to love God and our neighbor.

Sure. It is a command. But this command is NOT linked to savlation in any way.

He will keep us so long as we do not harden our hearts, and refuse to repent when we stumble. Pride is a very dangerous thing.

How sad! He keeps us forever, opposite of your opinion.

Read all of Romans 8. Read what Jesus said about the Holy Spirit, who will be with us FOREVER.

Could you show me some of your "so long as..." verses.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If you refuse to repent, He allows you to go. He will not drag you into Heaven by the seat of your pant, We are to remain faithful. He will keep us so long as we allow Him to. He will never leave us or forsake us, but marriage is a two way street. We are kept by faithfulness, not force.

If we are kept by OUR faithfulness, rather than God's faithfulness, then your view of salvation is really by works, whether you realize that or not.

 

[JerryInBoston]

Ergo, no. show me a verse that shows God causing anyone to believe, or choosing anyone to believe.

Did you read 1 Cor 1:27,28? It speaks of who God chooses, and the purpose of each choice. And NONE of them speak about salvation.


So? Was he divine? No. He was a Calvinist and has Calvinist opinions.


No He didn't. He saves those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21 says so.


Acts 9:15 is extremely clear. The Lord told Ananias that Paul was His "chosen INSTRUMENT" to carry the gospel to the Gentiles.

You cannot prove from any verse that Paul was chosen to believe. It is an errant opinion.


That would be impossible. And that's the exact problem with Calvinistic conclusions. They are totally unbiblical.

Paul himself told the jailer what the jailer MUST DO to be saved. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL be saved."

If Calvinism's claims were correct, Paul's answer could not have been what he did write. Instead, it would have to be something like this: "Salvation is by election of God. If He has chosen you from before the foundation of the world, you ARE saved. Otherwise, there is nothing you can to to be saved. It's all in God's hands and choice. Sorry."


Then please find a verse that says this.


Do you know where faith/believing comes from?


Right. Now that is biblical.

But people can resist conviction. Acts 7:51.

And conviction isn't forced belief, as it seems you think.

God does indeed choose whom HE wants and wills and causes people to believe in HIM.

As I said: God chose Saul and God caused Saul to believe. Had God not confronted Saul on the Damascus road, Saul would have continued on through life as an unbeliever.

The Philippian jailer was convicted by the Holy Spirit before he asked Paul and Silas what he must do to be saved. It is clear that God chose the jailer beforehand, and caused him to believe and to be saved.

Faith is a gift of God just as salvation is a gift of God, and God chooses whomever HE wants/wills to come to faith and believe, while others HE gives over to reprobate minds. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." Romans 10:17.

Prov. 21:1, “The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He [GOD] turns it wherever He [GOD] wishes.”

John 1:12-13, “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD."

Acts 16:14, “A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and THE LORD OPENED HER HEART TO RESPOND to the things spoken by Paul.”

Phil. 1:29, “Philippians 1:29, “For TO YOU IT HAS BEEN GRANTED for Christ’s sake, not only TO BELIEVE in Him, but also to suffer for His sake.”

1 Pet. 1:3, “Blessed be the God and Father of OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, who according to His great mercy HAS CAUSED US TO BE BORN AGAIN to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.”

 

[Chester]

Since Paul removed works from salvation, of course salvation is by faith apart from works.

Paul said we are not saved by works, but then he says we are His workmanship. To me that sounds like works are very much involved in my daily life and living - and salvation is being saved from the control and power of sin - thus I would not say that "Paul removed works from salvation."

Since Jesus said those who believe (present tense) HAVE (present tense) eternal life. So, how could anyone claim that eternal life isn't given the MOMENT one believes, since AT the moment, the person IS a believer and therefore HAS eternal life.

I agree completely with what you say here.

I never said anything about nanoseconds in John 10:28. The point of the verse is that ALL recipients of eternal life, which from 5:24 includes everyone who has believed, shall never perish.

You may not have -- I might have gotten what you said mixed up with someone else . . .

Well, I am just amazed at your naivety. Of course they do.

Those who believe have eternal life. John 5:24

Those who have eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28

If you don't see eternal life clearly in these 2 verses, I don't think there's any help for you.

I think part of the issue is in how one defines eternal life. I define it primarily as John does in John 17:3:
“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

Thus eternal life is knowing Jesus Christ and the Father.

I am not sure how you define it, but a popular contemporary definition is something like this: eternal life is living forever with Jesus in heaven.

So you believe eternal security but don't see it in those 2 verses.

So where in the Bible do you find the teaching of eternal security?

The Bible in various places says that the one who is believing in Jesus Christ has eternal life. Thus the one who is believing has security. Yes, and amen! PTL!

But I have not found the concept of Calvinistic eternal security anywhere in the Bible. Nowhere do I find that the one who is not believing in Jesus has eternal life.

 

[Chester]

Since Paul removed works from salvation, of course salvation is by faith apart from works.

I also point out that you keep changing what you say. And that is OK, except it is confusing for me.

It appears that you take the three statements below to mean the same thing:
(1) saved by faith alone
(2) Paul removed works from salvation
(3) Salvation is by faith apart from works

Those are three different statements and they do not all say the same thing. They are related but not equivalent.

 

[SophieT]

I have always maintained that one cannot "lose" their salvation, but that they can cast it away. The Scriptures say this in many places. We must abide in the Vine. This is not a hard thing. Jesus requires us to love God and our neighbor. He will keep us so long as we do not harden our hearts, and refuse to repent when we stumble. Pride is a very dangerous thing.

I tend to think that way. as in 'throw away'. but I also find the word 'repent' overused and perhaps somewhat misunderstood

oh yeah. pride is dangerous. goes before a fall I believe

 

[SophieT]

FreeGrace2 said:

Since Paul removed works from salvation, of course salvation is by faith apart from works.

Paul didn't remove it. maybe that is just your really bad way of expressing things, but Jesus actually removed conditional salvation on the cross.

there are no conditions to come to Christ other than believing (faith) and receiving Him...all through faith

Even Abraham received salvation through faith...he believed God, acted on it and God bestowed righteousness on him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Can you provide any verse that says election is to salvation? No, there aren't any.

Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love

sorry my friend, your wrong

Holy and without blame speaks only of salvation, not service

 

[Kidron]

The best way to understand "salvation" is that Jesus Himself is Salvation.
So, if you are born again, then Jesus lives in you, joined to your Spirit that has become "One with God".
This means that "Christ IN You, the hope of Glory", and your spirit, are in Spiritual Union, and the Life that is Christ Himself, john 14:6, has become your Spiritual eternal Life.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

The best way to understand "salvation" is that Jesus Himself is Salvation.

Huh. I've never heard that before. So if we say the Name Jesus, we will fully understand Salvation?

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

I am in-between if a person can loose their salvation or not.

Precious friend, praying the below will help in your Scriptural decision...

I have always maintained that one cannot "lose" their salvation, but that they can cast it away. The Scriptures say this in many places.

So sorry, only God Does The "Casting Away" Of UNbelievers into the lake of fire.
(Revelation 20:11-15 KJB!). These "HE NEVER knew" (Matthew 7:21-23 KJB!)

For believers, whom God Has "Always KNOWN" (2 Timothy 2:19 KJB!), HE
Alone Does ALL Of The Following, And Does NO "Casting Away," which is
Impossible For HIS FREE "Gift Of ETERNAL Life!":

it is possible for "men who think in terms of Conditional life," But, God
Has "NO such thing," According To ALL Of The Scriptures Already posted,
in # 64 And #65
{ God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST! }...

Please let me know IF I should also post, in this thread, ALL Scriptures For:
God's FREE Gift of ETERNAL Life!

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God's SimpleWill!

 

[SophieT]

Precious friend, praying the below will help in your Scriptural decision...

sorry. can't read your posts. guess that makes me less precious

I don't remember asking for someone to persuade me?

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

sorry. can't read your posts. guess that makes me less precious

It's quite alright, More Precious than ever = at least you DID N0T
consign me to the DUNGEON {wonder if that critic meant hell?}

God Bless!

 

[FreeGrace2]

God does indeed choose whom HE wants and wills and causes people to believe in HIM.

This is what I asked:
FreeGrace2 said:
Ergo, no. show me a verse that shows God causing anyone to believe, or choosing anyone to believe.

Did you read 1 Cor 1:27,28? It speaks of who God chooses, and the purpose of each choice. And NONE of them speak about salvation.

You claim that God does, but where are the verses that show this?

As I said: God chose Saul and God caused Saul to believe.

This is opinion. Please show a verse that says what you claim.

Had God not confronted Saul on the Damascus road, Saul would have continued on through life as an unbeliever.

Jesus revealing Himself to Paul is NOT "causing" Paul to believe. God does NOT cause anyone to believe. That is just Calvinist opinion, and is NOT found in Scripture.

The Philippian jailer was convicted by the Holy Spirit before he asked Paul and Silas what he must do to be saved. It is clear that God chose the jailer beforehand, and caused him to believe and to be saved.

More opinion. What verses say what you keep claiming?

Faith is a gift of God just as salvation is a gift of God

Eph 2:8 doesn't say that. The "it is a gift of God" is the SAME gender as "saved in the verse, and "faith" is the opposite gender.

In the Greek genders that match go together. Salvation, eternal life, indwelling Holy Spirit are the gifts of God. Not faith.

and God chooses whomever HE wants/wills to come to faith

The Bible tells us clearly who God chooses to save: believers. 1 Cor 1:21. Exegete that verse if you don't believe me.

and believe

Repeating this idea that God causes belief must be supported by Scripture or there is NO REASON to believe it.

Please believe what the Bible SAYS.

John 1:12-13, “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD."

v.13 is totally misunderstood by Calvinists. Being born again is what God does FOR or TO the believer. Of course the believer doesn't choose to be born again.

Acts 16:14, “A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and THE LORD OPENED HER HEART TO RESPOND to the things spoken by Paul.”

Uh, again, no. God does NOT cause one to believe. God does "open hearts". That is not "cause". It means God made the gospel clear to her, so she could understand it.

Phil. 1:29, “Philippians 1:29, “For TO YOU IT HAS BEEN GRANTED for Christ’s sake, not only TO BELIEVE in Him, but also to suffer for His sake.”

I figured this verse would come up. Again, it does NOT say God "causes" anyone to believe. Review the definition of "granted". It means to permit. That's a far cry from causing.

1 Pet. 1:3, “Blessed be the God and Father of OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, who according to His great mercy HAS CAUSED US TO BE BORN AGAIN to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.”

Same as John 1:13. Being born again is what God does FOR or TO the believer.

The person believes and God regenerates them. And that is biblical. If you think regeneration precedes faith, please show in the Bible where that is found.

 

[Runningman]

God does indeed choose whom HE wants and wills and causes people to believe in HIM.

As I said: God chose Saul and God caused Saul to believe. Had God not confronted Saul on the Damascus road, Saul would have continued on through life as an unbeliever.

The Philippian jailer was convicted by the Holy Spirit before he asked Paul and Silas what he must do to be saved. It is clear that God chose the jailer beforehand, and caused him to believe and to be saved.

Faith is a gift of God just as salvation is a gift of God, and God chooses whomever HE wants/wills to come to faith and believe, while others HE gives over to reprobate minds. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." Romans 10:17.

Prov. 21:1, “The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He [GOD] turns it wherever He [GOD] wishes.”

John 1:12-13, “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD."

Acts 16:14, “A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and THE LORD OPENED HER HEART TO RESPOND to the things spoken by Paul.”

Phil. 1:29, “Philippians 1:29, “For TO YOU IT HAS BEEN GRANTED for Christ’s sake, not only TO BELIEVE in Him, but also to suffer for His sake.”

1 Pet. 1:3, “Blessed be the God and Father of OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, who according to His great mercy HAS CAUSED US TO BE BORN AGAIN to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.”

Problem with your interpretation is that it posits that God saves individuals independent of their obedience. If that's true then there's no need for repentance, obeying the gospel, having faith, no need to study the scriptures, love God, do good for others, or really anything else at all.

Curious. Do you adhere to Calvinism?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Since Paul removed works from salvation, of course salvation is by faith apart from works.

Paul said we are not saved by works, but then he says we are His workmanship. To me that sounds like works are very much involved in my daily life and living - and salvation is being saved from the control and power of sin - thus I would not say that "Paul removed works from salvation."

The words " we are His workmanship" refers to what God has done, NOT what we have done or will do. Eph 2:10 says we are His workmanship to DO good works. But the salvation is back in v.8, based on faith apart from anything else.

FreeGrace2 said:
Since Jesus said those who believe (present tense) HAVE (present tense) eternal life. So, how could anyone claim that eternal life isn't given the MOMENT one believes, since AT the moment, the person IS a believer and therefore HAS eternal life.

I agree completely with what you say here.

Excellent. when John 10:28 is included, we know that from the moment of being given eternal life, the believer shall never perish.

I said:
"Well, I am just amazed at your naivety. Of course they do.

Those who believe have eternal life. John 5:24

Those who have eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28"

I think part of the issue is in how one defines eternal life. I define it primarily as John does in John 17:3:
“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

Thus eternal life is knowing Jesus Christ and the Father.

I am not sure how you define it, but a popular contemporary definition is something like this: eternal life is living forever with Jesus in heaven.

It is also a state of being. For the believer living on earth, they possess eternal life in the sense that they will never experience the second death, which is the lake of fire.

Sometimes the Bible uses "eternal life" to refer to eternity itself.

The Bible in various places says that the one who is believing in Jesus Christ has eternal life. Thus the one who is believing has security. Yes, and amen! PTL!

No, the Bible doesn't say or teach what you are insinuating; that if one ceases to believe they don't have eternal life. If that were true, there is no doubt that the Bible would make that very clear. Yet, there are no verses that say this.

There are 2 verses that clarify the issue of "continued believe" being necessary for staying saved.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Both verses have the same phrase: "have not believed". Since there is no time frame noted, just as "have not believe in the past ____
years,".

So, the phrase is unlimited in scope. Therefore, the words mean the same as "have NEVER believed".

So, the point of these 2 verses is that condemnation is for those who NEVER believed, or "have not believed". Ever.

So, anyone who HAS believed EVER possesses eternal life (John 5:24) and shall never perish (John 10:28).

But I have not found the concept of Calvinistic eternal security anywhere in the Bible. Nowhere do I find that the one who is not believing in Jesus has eternal life.

I'm no Calvinist but I just showed you in this post where the Bible teaches eternal security. And Calvinists don't own the doctrine, unlike their "doctrine of election" which is totally in error.

When the Bible speaks of "unbelief" it refers to those who NEVER believed. See the 2 verses above.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Since Paul removed works from salvation, of course salvation is by faith apart from works.

I also point out that you keep changing what you say. And that is OK, except it is confusing for me.

I don't understand what you mean by my "changing what I say". Can you give me an example?

It appears that you take the three statements below to mean the same thing:
(1) saved by faith alone
(2) Paul removed works from salvation
(3) Salvation is by faith apart from works

I certainly do. I can't imagine how anyone would see these 3 statements as different.

Those are three different statements and they do not all say the same thing. They are related but not equivalent.

Please explain, then.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Since Paul removed works from salvation, of course salvation is by faith apart from works."

Paul didn't remove it. maybe that is just your really bad way of expressing things, but Jesus actually removed conditional salvation on the cross.

Sorry to offend your sensibilities, but my statement was directed to a poster who believed that works were required/necessary for salvation, so I used "editorial liberty" to make the point that there is NO works in salvation. At least on man's part.

there are no conditions to come to Christ other than believing (faith) and receiving Him...all through faith

Of course that is true.

Even Abraham received salvation through faith...he believed God, acted on it and God bestowed righteousness on him.

Preaching to the choir.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Can you provide any verse that says election is to salvation? No, there aren't any.

Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love

sorry my friend, your wrong

Nope. The purpose of this election is clearly stated in the purpose clause of "that we should be". And it's subjunctive mood, meaning it's something believers (us) OUGHT/SHOULD do.

Holy and without blame speaks only of salvation, not service

No again. To be "holy and blameless" speaks of service to the King. In fact, Paul clarified in Eph 5 the issue of being holy and blameless.

Keep in mind the passage is about service:

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

In v.25 husbands (believing ones) are commanded to love their wives. That's service through obedience to God's commands.
in v.26 explains God's plan for believers (the church), which is to "make her (saved people holy) and gives us the mechanics of how Christ makes believers holy; cleansing through God's Word.
In v.27 we find God's goal for believers: to present her (saved church) to Himself w/o stain or wrinkle, or any other blemish, but HOLY AND BLAMELESS.

So in the same epistle we find the words "holy and blameless". Since Eph 5 uses the phrase as God's plan for saved people, it cannot be linked to getting saved. It is about saved people. What they are to be. Again, that's service.

 

[JerryInBoston]

This is what I asked:
FreeGrace2 said:
Ergo, no. show me a verse that shows God causing anyone to believe, or choosing anyone to believe.

Did you read 1 Cor 1:27,28? It speaks of who God chooses, and the purpose of each choice. And NONE of them speak about salvation.

You claim that God does, but where are the verses that show this?


This is opinion. Please show a verse that says what you claim.


Jesus revealing Himself to Paul is NOT "causing" Paul to believe. God does NOT cause anyone to believe. That is just Calvinist opinion, and is NOT found in Scripture.


More opinion. What verses say what you keep claiming?


Eph 2:8 doesn't say that. The "it is a gift of God" is the SAME gender as "saved in the verse, and "faith" is the opposite gender.

In the Greek genders that match go together. Salvation, eternal life, indwelling Holy Spirit are the gifts of God. Not faith.


The Bible tells us clearly who God chooses to save: believers. 1 Cor 1:21. Exegete that verse if you don't believe me.


Repeating this idea that God causes belief must be supported by Scripture or there is NO REASON to believe it.

Please believe what the Bible SAYS.


v.13 is totally misunderstood by Calvinists. Being born again is what God does FOR or TO the believer. Of course the believer doesn't choose to be born again.


Uh, again, no. God does NOT cause one to believe. God does "open hearts". That is not "cause". It means God made the gospel clear to her, so she could understand it.


I figured this verse would come up. Again, it does NOT say God "causes" anyone to believe. Review the definition of "granted". It means to permit. That's a far cry from causing.


Same as John 1:13. Being born again is what God does FOR or TO the believer.

The person believes and God regenerates them. And that is biblical. If you think regeneration precedes faith, please show in the Bible where that is found.

Did Nicodemus have saving faith/belief? No. Jesus told him directly that he must be born again. Regeneration precedes true faith/belief. Only when regeneration occurs does the Holy Spirit convict, and only the convicted come to saving faith; saving faith is a gift from God and not man's own doing.

Many say they believe in God, but, at the same time they reject the command of Jesus of the need for their own regeneration. God does not gift eternal life to any that are not regenerated, because the unregenerate do not have the gift of true faith.

The devil believes; he indeed knows the truth. According to your argument, the devil can be saved because he believes, but he is condemned.

The Bible verses I provided support that true faith/belief is caused by God at regeneration, and that God imparts true faith/belief in those HE wants/wills.

John 3:16 says "everyone believing in him" has eternal life.

John 3:16 does not say "anyone can believe in him".