Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.
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Nothing here about a Male child being caught up in the middle of the trib.
Who is this Male child that is caught up in the middle of the trib?
I asked for Scripture that supports the claim of the Male child being caught up in the middle of the trib. Your post doesn't give any Scripture.
No it doesn't "tell us" that. Please specify the exact verse(s) that support your claim.
I'm interested in what the Bible SAYS. Not your math skills.
I still see nothing about the Child being caught up. What is the claim about being "caught up" supposed to be? Some kind of rapture?
Yep, the math is easy. Where is the evidence that Christ is "caught up"?
I said:
"John 14:1-3 was Jesus BEFORE His own resurrection guaranteeing His disciples that there would be a place for them in heaven when they die."
What Jesus DIDN'T say in v.1-3 is anything about a rapture or resurrection. What Jesus DID say was that He would return (which He did AFTER His resurrection). And Jesus' statement is a guarantee that all the 11 disciples would have a place in heaven. Since they hadn't died YET, He was giving them assurance that they would be there when they died.
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.
2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
So, which verse do you read about a rapture and Jesus taking them to heaven? Jesus ascended to heaven and lEFT BEHIND the 11 disciples. Acts 1. v.3 is an assurance of them having a place in heaven for when they died. And guess what! They all died and went to heaven. Where they found a place that Jesus prepared.
According to your theory, v.3 would have to mean that when Jesus came back after His own resurrection He was going to take the 11 with Him to heaven. But we all know He didn't do that.
So, what was Jesus talking about in v.3?
The phrase "I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am" is clear.
Coming back is a reference to His Second Advent and "take you to be with me" is a reference to bringing ALL the dead saints already in heaven with Him to earth. And He ends with the promise that at that time (Second Advent) that they would ALWAYS be with Him.
When Jesus came back from His resurrection, did He take the 11 to heaven with Him? No, He did not.
Why are you telling me this? Of course it was a group event. It is the FIRST resurrection of "those who belong to Him", which includes every believer from Adam forward. Absolutely a group event.
Why don't you just admit that 1 Thess 4:16,17 doesn't say anything about Jesus taking any resurrected/raptured believers back to heaven? Neither does 1 Cor 15:52.
You have no case.
You're conflating what all He said. Which I just explained. According to your theory, v.3 would have to mean that Jesus would come back from His resurrection and take the disciples with Him to heaven. Which He did not do.
2nd part of respond to follow:
Who is this Male child that is caught up in the middle of the trib?
I asked for Scripture that supports the claim of the Male child being caught up in the middle of the trib. Your post doesn't give any Scripture.
No it doesn't "tell us" that. Please specify the exact verse(s) that support your claim.
I'm interested in what the Bible SAYS. Not your math skills.
I still see nothing about the Child being caught up. What is the claim about being "caught up" supposed to be? Some kind of rapture?
Yep, the math is easy. Where is the evidence that Christ is "caught up"?
I said:
"John 14:1-3 was Jesus BEFORE His own resurrection guaranteeing His disciples that there would be a place for them in heaven when they die."
What Jesus DIDN'T say in v.1-3 is anything about a rapture or resurrection. What Jesus DID say was that He would return (which He did AFTER His resurrection). And Jesus' statement is a guarantee that all the 11 disciples would have a place in heaven. Since they hadn't died YET, He was giving them assurance that they would be there when they died.
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.
2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
So, which verse do you read about a rapture and Jesus taking them to heaven? Jesus ascended to heaven and lEFT BEHIND the 11 disciples. Acts 1. v.3 is an assurance of them having a place in heaven for when they died. And guess what! They all died and went to heaven. Where they found a place that Jesus prepared.
According to your theory, v.3 would have to mean that when Jesus came back after His own resurrection He was going to take the 11 with Him to heaven. But we all know He didn't do that.
So, what was Jesus talking about in v.3?
The phrase "I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am" is clear.
Coming back is a reference to His Second Advent and "take you to be with me" is a reference to bringing ALL the dead saints already in heaven with Him to earth. And He ends with the promise that at that time (Second Advent) that they would ALWAYS be with Him.
When Jesus came back from His resurrection, did He take the 11 to heaven with Him? No, He did not.
Why are you telling me this? Of course it was a group event. It is the FIRST resurrection of "those who belong to Him", which includes every believer from Adam forward. Absolutely a group event.
Why don't you just admit that 1 Thess 4:16,17 doesn't say anything about Jesus taking any resurrected/raptured believers back to heaven? Neither does 1 Cor 15:52.
You have no case.
You're conflating what all He said. Which I just explained. According to your theory, v.3 would have to mean that Jesus would come back from His resurrection and take the disciples with Him to heaven. Which He did not do.
2nd part of respond to follow:
Here's the second part of my response to Ahw:
It is precisely this idea that you have NO EVIDENCE FOR. Only pure speculation. Your "math" is off. By a lot.
Both Acts 24:15 and 1 Cor 15:23 show that all believers are resurrected at the same time. From this paragraph, you forgot all about the trib martyrs. They have believed in Jesus Christ and will reign with Him for 1,000 yrs. So why do you exclude them?
They are no less church age believers than anyone else from Christ's resurrection to the trib.
I guess you're really having a hard time with the "math". I have explained what v.3 means. You're going to have to explain what you think "come back" means. If He meant after His death, burial and resurrection, He would have taken the 11 with Him to heaven in Acts 1, which He clearly didn't do.
It cannot refer to any kind of pretrib rapture, because by that time all of the 11 will already be in heaven. So Jesus wouldn't have to "come back" for any of them. They will already be in heaven.
So it has to mean when Jesus comes back AT THE SECOND ADVENT, the 11 will always be with Him.
This is getting seriously twisted.
First, neither of the 2W receive immortal bodies, or the Bible would note that. They will be "raised to life" in the SAME WAY as everyone in Acts who died and was raised to life was. No different. Many people were noted to have come back to life in Acts. Yet, NONE of them received immortal bodies. I've read no scholar who makes the claim otherwise.
Both of the 2W left earth back to heaven the SAME WAY they left the first time. In their physical bodies.
I said:
"The Bible does NOT say the 2W are given immortal bodies. They will be raised up the SAME WAY everyone in Acts was raised from the dead."
Rather, you have revealed your own lack of study and/or thought about this matter.
Most scholars believe that the 2W are Enoch and Elijah, prophets who never physically died. They get their opportunity during the Trib. Given the verses above, explain how 2 men in the OT were taken to heaven without physically dying.
Since you can't argue anything against them going to heaven with their physical bodies, you can't about the 2W in the Trib.
You'll have to take this up with God. Complain to Him about why He took Enoch and Elijah to heaven without them dying first.
Even remind God of the verses you just quoted. Let me know what He tells you. I'm sure it will be quite constructive.
I said:
"All believers from ALL time (Adam forward) are resurrected at the SAME TIME, which is at the Second Advent."
Show me ANY verse that I have stomped on. What a ludicrous comment. It's the pretribbers who have NO VERSE that shows Jesus taking resurrectted/raptured believers to heaven, yet the Bible shows clearly that it treats the resurrection of all saints as a single event. Not "phased" resurrections, which are DEMANDED for a pretrib rapture claim.
To be clear, we "grab" the very Scriptures that REFUTE the pretrib rapture theory. As to sweeping veses under the rug, that's your technique. 2 Thess 2:1 couldn't be more clear about WHEN the rapture occurs: when Jesus returns at the Second Advent.
And Rev 20:4,5 backs that up completely.
Rather, I and others have been explaining them properly.
"must be"... So show me any verse that proves your claim. I don't believe your claim.
Here's why I don't believe you:
1. no verses showing Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven. That's the foundation of pretrib rapture.
2. no verses showing that the "first resurrection" will be in phases.
here's why you should believe in a posttrib rapture:
1. 2 Thess 2:1 and Rev 20:4,5 show that the rapture occurs at the Second Advent.
2. Both Acts 24:15 and 1 Cor 15:23 clearly show that the resurrection of saints is a SINGULAR event, not a phased event.
It is precisely this idea that you have NO EVIDENCE FOR. Only pure speculation. Your "math" is off. By a lot.
Both Acts 24:15 and 1 Cor 15:23 show that all believers are resurrected at the same time. From this paragraph, you forgot all about the trib martyrs. They have believed in Jesus Christ and will reign with Him for 1,000 yrs. So why do you exclude them?
They are no less church age believers than anyone else from Christ's resurrection to the trib.
I guess you're really having a hard time with the "math". I have explained what v.3 means. You're going to have to explain what you think "come back" means. If He meant after His death, burial and resurrection, He would have taken the 11 with Him to heaven in Acts 1, which He clearly didn't do.
It cannot refer to any kind of pretrib rapture, because by that time all of the 11 will already be in heaven. So Jesus wouldn't have to "come back" for any of them. They will already be in heaven.
So it has to mean when Jesus comes back AT THE SECOND ADVENT, the 11 will always be with Him.
This is getting seriously twisted.
First, neither of the 2W receive immortal bodies, or the Bible would note that. They will be "raised to life" in the SAME WAY as everyone in Acts who died and was raised to life was. No different. Many people were noted to have come back to life in Acts. Yet, NONE of them received immortal bodies. I've read no scholar who makes the claim otherwise.
Both of the 2W left earth back to heaven the SAME WAY they left the first time. In their physical bodies.
I said:
"The Bible does NOT say the 2W are given immortal bodies. They will be raised up the SAME WAY everyone in Acts was raised from the dead."
Rather, you have revealed your own lack of study and/or thought about this matter.
Most scholars believe that the 2W are Enoch and Elijah, prophets who never physically died. They get their opportunity during the Trib. Given the verses above, explain how 2 men in the OT were taken to heaven without physically dying.
Since you can't argue anything against them going to heaven with their physical bodies, you can't about the 2W in the Trib.
You'll have to take this up with God. Complain to Him about why He took Enoch and Elijah to heaven without them dying first.
Even remind God of the verses you just quoted. Let me know what He tells you. I'm sure it will be quite constructive.
I said:
"All believers from ALL time (Adam forward) are resurrected at the SAME TIME, which is at the Second Advent."
Show me ANY verse that I have stomped on. What a ludicrous comment. It's the pretribbers who have NO VERSE that shows Jesus taking resurrectted/raptured believers to heaven, yet the Bible shows clearly that it treats the resurrection of all saints as a single event. Not "phased" resurrections, which are DEMANDED for a pretrib rapture claim.
To be clear, we "grab" the very Scriptures that REFUTE the pretrib rapture theory. As to sweeping veses under the rug, that's your technique. 2 Thess 2:1 couldn't be more clear about WHEN the rapture occurs: when Jesus returns at the Second Advent.
And Rev 20:4,5 backs that up completely.
Rather, I and others have been explaining them properly.
"must be"... So show me any verse that proves your claim. I don't believe your claim.
Here's why I don't believe you:
1. no verses showing Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven. That's the foundation of pretrib rapture.
2. no verses showing that the "first resurrection" will be in phases.
here's why you should believe in a posttrib rapture:
1. 2 Thess 2:1 and Rev 20:4,5 show that the rapture occurs at the Second Advent.
2. Both Acts 24:15 and 1 Cor 15:23 clearly show that the resurrection of saints is a SINGULAR event, not a phased event.
Firstfruit jews.
The first miracle contained
Jews
Jesus
Mary
The disciples
Wedding
The number six
Wine needed/wanted
No wine (wine ran out)
Wine aquired
Water
Wedding feast ( and that feast AT THE WEDDING.... or HEAVEN)
Bride
Groom
Fathers house
Grapes
The declaration "time had not come" or " is not yet" or "timing is off".
The declaration " you saved the best wine for last"
And lastly "earthen pots as is for jewish PURIFICATION"
First and last are interchangeable in heaven laws.
The first miracle is also the last miracle.
But also the last wedding and feast will be in the fathers house.
Wedding and feast together.
The firstfruit jews are firstfruit ( 144k) because they precede the main harvest.
The jews come last to the feast.
" we need more wine"
They arrive from mid trib rapture ( rev 14) to the feast in heaven as "the best saved for last"
Huge.
But hidden
Aint nobody talking about that revelation.
Remember...you heard it here first...no pun intended.
The first miracle contained
Jews
Jesus
Mary
The disciples
Wedding
The number six
Wine needed/wanted
No wine (wine ran out)
Wine aquired
Water
Wedding feast ( and that feast AT THE WEDDING.... or HEAVEN)
Bride
Groom
Fathers house
Grapes
The declaration "time had not come" or " is not yet" or "timing is off".
The declaration " you saved the best wine for last"
And lastly "earthen pots as is for jewish PURIFICATION"
First and last are interchangeable in heaven laws.
The first miracle is also the last miracle.
But also the last wedding and feast will be in the fathers house.
Wedding and feast together.
The firstfruit jews are firstfruit ( 144k) because they precede the main harvest.
The jews come last to the feast.
" we need more wine"
They arrive from mid trib rapture ( rev 14) to the feast in heaven as "the best saved for last"
Huge.
But hidden
Aint nobody talking about that revelation.
Remember...you heard it here first...no pun intended.
FreeGrace2 said:
Why do you try to equate any kind of "harvest" into a rapture/resurrection scenario? Lev 23 has no such meaning.
Lev 23 has NOTHING TO DO with resurrections.
Why would the count of Jesus' "ascensions" be pertinent to this discussion? What does it prove, regarding the # of ascensions?
The key is how many times He comes to earth. That number is twice.
Heb 9:28 - so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
This verse PROVES that there are 2 advents of Christ. The red words refer to His first advent, when He came to earth, born of a virgin, and died on a cross for the sins of mankind. The blue words refer to His second advent, when He comes to earth as King of kings, Lord of lords, ends the Trib, sets up His Kingdom and reigns for 1,000 years, while Satan is bound. At the end of 1,000 years, Satan is loosed, will again deceive the nations and Christ will destroy all of the armies, throw Satan into the lake of fire, where the beast and false prophet have been for 1,000 years, and then rule at the GWT judgment, where all unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire.
Are you claiming that a "harvest" is a rapture?
Why do you try to equate any kind of "harvest" into a rapture/resurrection scenario? Lev 23 has no such meaning.
Lev 23 has NOTHING TO DO with resurrections.
Why would the count of Jesus' "ascensions" be pertinent to this discussion? What does it prove, regarding the # of ascensions?
The key is how many times He comes to earth. That number is twice.
Heb 9:28 - so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
This verse PROVES that there are 2 advents of Christ. The red words refer to His first advent, when He came to earth, born of a virgin, and died on a cross for the sins of mankind. The blue words refer to His second advent, when He comes to earth as King of kings, Lord of lords, ends the Trib, sets up His Kingdom and reigns for 1,000 years, while Satan is bound. At the end of 1,000 years, Satan is loosed, will again deceive the nations and Christ will destroy all of the armies, throw Satan into the lake of fire, where the beast and false prophet have been for 1,000 years, and then rule at the GWT judgment, where all unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire.
Are you claiming that a "harvest" is a rapture?
Check these verses. First resurrection occurs after the return of Jesus Christ and then the rapture occurs.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
No, I am NOT claiming that; and I pointedly said so in my Post #880 (pg 44), under the first bullet-point:
https://christianchat.com/threads/j...rapture-stop-causing-fear.199566/post-4604715
For example, I've stated that the "WHEAT harvest" Matt13 (of which I believe the "144,000" are "firstfruit"--Rev14:4, Lev23:17 "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN"), harvested by means of a "tribulum" (harvesting implement), has as its destination the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age (aka "the age [singular] to come" Jesus spoke of just prior to this Matthew 13 Subject He was covering), so that, the "My Barn" equals the earthly MK age (earthly location)... the "WHEAT and tares" of chpt 13 [harvest], I believe, speaking to the "still-living" persons at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth--but with "resurrection" IN PARTICULAR not being addressed in this Matt13 passage (not that I don't believe "saints" who've died from both OT times and Trib-yrs won't be "resurrected ['to stand again' on the earth]" FOR the MK age, they WILL...but Matt13 doesn't cover that, and... this is not "RAPTURE [IN THE AIR]" which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" and which ONLY will happen at ONE singular point in time, which is not at this "WHEAT" harvest point in the chronology... Again, more than one "harvest," but NOT more than one "Rapture [IN THE AIR]")
I believe "harvests" (more than one) has more to do with the phrase (and word in blue) "but each ['of more than two'] IN HIS OWN ORDER/RANK [G5001]" (even though this verse is in the context of "resurrection," I still connect the idea of "harvests" with this "rank [G5001]" word--i.e. more than one "harvest" in Scripture and in nature; but there is only ONE "Rapture [IN THE AIR]" and that is connected, as I see it, NOT with the "WHEAT" harvest, harvested by means of the "tribulum" [and whose "destination" is earthly-located, i.e. the "My barn"] but rather with the EARLIER harvest, harvested by means of "TOSSING INTO THE AIR" and BLOWING away the chaff.)
Hope that helps you see my viewpoint on the question you presented above. = )
That's all I've got time to cover in this post, at this time.
https://christianchat.com/threads/j...rapture-stop-causing-fear.199566/post-4604715
For example, I've stated that the "WHEAT harvest" Matt13 (of which I believe the "144,000" are "firstfruit"--Rev14:4, Lev23:17 "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN"), harvested by means of a "tribulum" (harvesting implement), has as its destination the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age (aka "the age [singular] to come" Jesus spoke of just prior to this Matthew 13 Subject He was covering), so that, the "My Barn" equals the earthly MK age (earthly location)... the "WHEAT and tares" of chpt 13 [harvest], I believe, speaking to the "still-living" persons at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth--but with "resurrection" IN PARTICULAR not being addressed in this Matt13 passage (not that I don't believe "saints" who've died from both OT times and Trib-yrs won't be "resurrected ['to stand again' on the earth]" FOR the MK age, they WILL...but Matt13 doesn't cover that, and... this is not "RAPTURE [IN THE AIR]" which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" and which ONLY will happen at ONE singular point in time, which is not at this "WHEAT" harvest point in the chronology... Again, more than one "harvest," but NOT more than one "Rapture [IN THE AIR]")
I believe "harvests" (more than one) has more to do with the phrase (and word in blue) "but each ['of more than two'] IN HIS OWN ORDER/RANK [G5001]" (even though this verse is in the context of "resurrection," I still connect the idea of "harvests" with this "rank [G5001]" word--i.e. more than one "harvest" in Scripture and in nature; but there is only ONE "Rapture [IN THE AIR]" and that is connected, as I see it, NOT with the "WHEAT" harvest, harvested by means of the "tribulum" [and whose "destination" is earthly-located, i.e. the "My barn"] but rather with the EARLIER harvest, harvested by means of "TOSSING INTO THE AIR" and BLOWING away the chaff.)
Hope that helps you see my viewpoint on the question you presented above. = )
That's all I've got time to cover in this post, at this time.
Couple of flaws there.
1) that harvest of Rev 14 has firstfruit jews PRECEEDING.
THEREFORE that is 1st fruits and main harvests.
Basically 2 gatherings vividly depicted.
2) There is no tribulum in rev 14.
There is a wine press.
The 144 k and the following main harvest by Jesus with a sickle is grape harvest. No tribulum.
"""not "RAPTURE [IN THE AIR]" which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" and which ONLY will happen at ONE singular point in time, which is not at this "WHEAT" harvest point in the chronology... Again, more than one "harvest," but NOT more than one "Rapture [IN THE AIR]")"""
Rev 14, as well as the 2 witnesses are raptured into the air.
The 144k are in heaven in rev 14.
Could have been raptured. Could have been martyred/resurrected/raptured.
It does not say.
But DEFINATELY more than one gathering into the sky, then on to heaven.
1) that harvest of Rev 14 has firstfruit jews PRECEEDING.
THEREFORE that is 1st fruits and main harvests.
Basically 2 gatherings vividly depicted.
2) There is no tribulum in rev 14.
There is a wine press.
The 144 k and the following main harvest by Jesus with a sickle is grape harvest. No tribulum.
"""not "RAPTURE [IN THE AIR]" which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" and which ONLY will happen at ONE singular point in time, which is not at this "WHEAT" harvest point in the chronology... Again, more than one "harvest," but NOT more than one "Rapture [IN THE AIR]")"""
Rev 14, as well as the 2 witnesses are raptured into the air.
The 144k are in heaven in rev 14.
Could have been raptured. Could have been martyred/resurrected/raptured.
It does not say.
But DEFINATELY more than one gathering into the sky, then on to heaven.
1) we both believe Jesus returns on white horses AFTER the trib.
2) rev 14 debunks your position .
But you guys think one verse omits 10.
All the positions that reject a pretrib rapture are tribulation/antichrist centered in that you are looking for ANYTHING BUT a rapture.
Thank You Jesus for my bible.
The rev 14 dynamic is not going away.
2) rev 14 debunks your position .
But you guys think one verse omits 10.
All the positions that reject a pretrib rapture are tribulation/antichrist centered in that you are looking for ANYTHING BUT a rapture.
Thank You Jesus for my bible.
The rev 14 dynamic is not going away.
Again, Rev 20:4,5 proves sthat Rev 14 is a summary verse.
Clouds.
What holes? I've got actual Scripture, unlike your real theory.
2 Thess 2:1 places the rapture after the Tribulation.
Rev 20:4,5 places the resurrection after the Tribulation.
These are irrefutable.
So, what do pretribbers have to do? They are forced to make up stuff; like a "phased" resurrection. Stuff like that.
Oh, and they don't have any verse that shows Jesus taking any resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.
So don't talk to me about my theories, since pretribbers have all the theory. And no verses.
Clouds.
What holes? I've got actual Scripture, unlike your real theory.
2 Thess 2:1 places the rapture after the Tribulation.
Rev 20:4,5 places the resurrection after the Tribulation.
These are irrefutable.
So, what do pretribbers have to do? They are forced to make up stuff; like a "phased" resurrection. Stuff like that.
Oh, and they don't have any verse that shows Jesus taking any resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.
So don't talk to me about my theories, since pretribbers have all the theory. And no verses.