Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.
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Rev. is future of that which we have not seen...yet.
14:3-4 King James Version (KJV). 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
14:3-4 King James Version (KJV). 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Kept out of? Like Daniel was kept out of the lions mouth and the three faithful were kept out of the flames burning heat. Like Noah was kept out of the flood water. We too can be kept out of Gods wrath by...... 1) disappearing,
.......2) walking with Jesus, trusting Him.
Jesus protected His people through the trials. He can keep us safe through the wrath to come.
Can Jesus keep us safe in any situation? Can Jesus keep us safe in the hour of Gods wrath? If you say no....I worry about your belief, If God can keep His people safe, safe through the trials, then were is your faith? You don't need any faith for coming trials when you believe pretrib rapture because you will apparently not need it.
It is by the blood of Jesus that the wrath of God will not fall on His people. When the time of trouble comes and the world is shacking with fear it is because we believe in Jesus and His blood that we can have peace (that requires faith). Like the lambs blood that saved the first born in Egypt. The plague happened then the people were freed.
[/QUOTE] Anyone believing and teaching a pre-tribulation gathering of the church, is believing and proclaiming the truth! Because the basic principle is that Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon those who are in Christ. Anyone who believes and teaches that the church is going to be on the earth to go through God's wrath, is not truly believing that Christ already satisfied it.[/QUOTE]
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
.......2) walking with Jesus, trusting Him.
Jesus protected His people through the trials. He can keep us safe through the wrath to come.
Can Jesus keep us safe in any situation? Can Jesus keep us safe in the hour of Gods wrath? If you say no....I worry about your belief, If God can keep His people safe, safe through the trials, then were is your faith? You don't need any faith for coming trials when you believe pretrib rapture because you will apparently not need it.
It is by the blood of Jesus that the wrath of God will not fall on His people. When the time of trouble comes and the world is shacking with fear it is because we believe in Jesus and His blood that we can have peace (that requires faith). Like the lambs blood that saved the first born in Egypt. The plague happened then the people were freed.
[/QUOTE] Anyone believing and teaching a pre-tribulation gathering of the church, is believing and proclaiming the truth! Because the basic principle is that Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon those who are in Christ. Anyone who believes and teaches that the church is going to be on the earth to go through God's wrath, is not truly believing that Christ already satisfied it.[/QUOTE]
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Anyone believing and teaching a pre-tribulation gathering of the church, is believing and proclaiming the truth! Because the basic principle is that Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon those who are in Christ. Anyone who believes and teaches that the church is going to be on the earth to go through God's wrath, is not truly believing that Christ already satisfied it.[/QUOTE]
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.[/QUOTE]
Yep, God keep out Israel from 10 plagues to agypt
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.[/QUOTE]
Yep, God keep out Israel from 10 plagues to agypt
I think you aren't understanding the issue here.
IF there will be a pretrib rapture, it clearly assumes everyone in heaven will participate. But since the 2W who are now in heaven will be killed during the trib, it is obvious that they didn't receive the immortal bodies that everyone else in heaven will receive before the trib.
That means the 2W will be LEFT BEHIND when everyone else goes with Jesus to get their immortal bodies.
How does that make sense? It doesn't. It refutes the notions of pretrib rapture, since it would be preposterous for the 2W to be LEFT BEHIND.
IF there will be a pretrib rapture, it clearly assumes everyone in heaven will participate. But since the 2W who are now in heaven will be killed during the trib, it is obvious that they didn't receive the immortal bodies that everyone else in heaven will receive before the trib.
That means the 2W will be LEFT BEHIND when everyone else goes with Jesus to get their immortal bodies.
How does that make sense? It doesn't. It refutes the notions of pretrib rapture, since it would be preposterous for the 2W to be LEFT BEHIND.
"Behold, I SHEW you a mystery... THIS corruptible [i.e. "the DEAD IN Christ"]... and THIS mortal [i.e. the "we which are LIVING and remaining," who are ALSO "IN Christ"]"
... this speaks SOLELY TO/FOR/ABOUT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"] (Eph1:20-21 WHEN [as to its existence]); Eph1:10 is not speaking of "this present age [singular]"
... the "ONE BODY" that will be "caught up TOGETHER / AT THE SAME TIME" (i.e. to whom "Rapture" SOLELY pertains--not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods)
... this speaks SOLELY TO/FOR/ABOUT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"] (Eph1:20-21 WHEN [as to its existence]); Eph1:10 is not speaking of "this present age [singular]"
... the "ONE BODY" that will be "caught up TOGETHER / AT THE SAME TIME" (i.e. to whom "Rapture" SOLELY pertains--not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods)
Revelation 3:10 says absolutely nothing about being caught up to meet Jesus in the sky or being gathered to Jesus. It isn't a rapture verse.
You need to look at what verses actually say and what they don't say. This is how you can protect yourself from projecting false narratives into the scriptures.
Let the Bible interpret itself and don't add to it. If you can start over with eschatology with this mindset you'll find a pre-trib rapture doesn't exist. It is not directly stated, implied, or woven in the context.
However, repeatedly there is irrefutable evidence for a post-trib gathering to Christ.
You need to look at what verses actually say and what they don't say. This is how you can protect yourself from projecting false narratives into the scriptures.
Let the Bible interpret itself and don't add to it. If you can start over with eschatology with this mindset you'll find a pre-trib rapture doesn't exist. It is not directly stated, implied, or woven in the context.
However, repeatedly there is irrefutable evidence for a post-trib gathering to Christ.
[follow-up to my Post #1153 ^^ ] The 2W "'stand again' on the earth" (i.e. are resurrected from the dead) at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe" time-slot, at a time DISTINCT from when all others will be "resurrected". Why is that?? ( @FreeGrace2 )
Consider what I'd put over in another thread just now:
https://christianchat.com/threads/why-daniels-70th-week-must-be-in-the-future.200137/post-4607081
... then consider what it means for it to say "keep *you* OUT OF the HOUR [/TIME-PERIOD]..." OF something that is otherwise said "to come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." ... what does that say about "where" YOU are instead, for that "time-period"?? (somewhere OTHER THAN "the earth," perhaps?)
[note again: Rev5:9 "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood, out of EVERY..." (and note the "location" and the "timing"--before the FIRST SEAL [aka the "INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 / Matt24:4/Mk13:5]"] is unleashed upon the world)]
https://christianchat.com/threads/why-daniels-70th-week-must-be-in-the-future.200137/post-4607081
... then consider what it means for it to say "keep *you* OUT OF the HOUR [/TIME-PERIOD]..." OF something that is otherwise said "to come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." ... what does that say about "where" YOU are instead, for that "time-period"?? (somewhere OTHER THAN "the earth," perhaps?)
[note again: Rev5:9 "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood, out of EVERY..." (and note the "location" and the "timing"--before the FIRST SEAL [aka the "INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 / Matt24:4/Mk13:5]"] is unleashed upon the world)]
I would like to point out that neither Daniel, Noah, Shadrach, Meshach nor Abednego were having God's wrath poured out on them. And it wasn't God plan to have them removed from the earth, as it is for the church. After the church has been gathered, God's wrath will come upon the whole entire world affecting everyone. In order to have a better understanding of this, I would urge you to do a deeper study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, because these will not be your typical plagues of wrath.
The word 'ek' is what I was keying in on which again means to be kept 'out of,' not kept though or kept during the wrath of God, but kept out of God's time of wrath. Those scriptures that you are quoting are not relevant to the use of that word.
It's not that God could not keep us safe through His wrath, but that He is going to protect the church by gathering us off the earth prior to said wrath. This idea of God protecting His church on the earth during the time of His wrath, is first because of not understanding the underlying principle, which as I continue to make known, is that Jesus took upon himself God's wrath which we deserve, satisfying it completely. Therefore because it has been satisfied, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. This principle is what many are not understanding nor considering.
And second, those who claim that the church is going to be on the earth to go through God's wrath, it shows a lack of their understanding of the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which make up the majority of God's wrath. The fact is, the church is nowhere mentioned within the narrative of God's wrath and there is therefore no scriptures which state that God protects the church from those plagues of wrath. The only groups that are mentioned as having any kind of protection is the woman/Israel in Rev.12:6, 14 who flees out into the wilderness and is cared for by God during the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. The other is the 144,000 who are said to be exempt from the tormenting stings of those demonic beings who are released from the Abyss at the 5th trumpet, as revealed in Rev.9:4.
By your claim above, I reiterate that you have no understanding of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath and that it will come upon the whole inhabited world.
The way in which God protected Noah, was by having him build an ark so as to escape the flood and afterwards repopulate the earth. Likewise, God had Lot and his family removed from the area before He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities. As for His church, because of His promise and because of the severity of this coming, unprecedented wrath, the Lord will be removing His church from the earth so that He can carry out His wrath instead of protecting His church while on the earth.
[/QUOTE] Anyone believing and teaching a pre-tribulation gathering of the church, is believing and proclaiming the truth! Because the basic principle is that Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon those who are in Christ. Anyone who believes and teaches that the church is going to be on the earth to go through God's wrath, is not truly believing that Christ already satisfied it.[/QUOTE]
What you have quoted above, as so many others have, is the event of when the Lord physically and visually returns to the earth to end the age to establish His millennial kingdom, which is a different event from the gathering of the church. As long as you and others fail to recognize this, your interpretation of end-time events will continue to be in error.
Scriptures Regarding The gathering of The Church:
Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well. In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am." - John 14:1-3
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep (in death), but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. - 1 Corinthians 15:51-53
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
Simon Peter asked him, “Lord, where are you going?” Jesus replied, “Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later.”
Scriptures Regarding the Lord's Return to the Earth to End the Age:
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. - Matthew 24:30-31
Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen. - Revelation 1:7
They (Beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.” - Revelation 17:14
I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. - Revelation 19:11-15
===============================================================
We must be able to discern first of all, that these are two separate events. And secondly, which scriptures belong to which event. If you misapply them to the wrong event, then you will be in error regarding your conclusions of end-time events.
The word 'ek' is what I was keying in on which again means to be kept 'out of,' not kept though or kept during the wrath of God, but kept out of God's time of wrath. Those scriptures that you are quoting are not relevant to the use of that word.
It's not that God could not keep us safe through His wrath, but that He is going to protect the church by gathering us off the earth prior to said wrath. This idea of God protecting His church on the earth during the time of His wrath, is first because of not understanding the underlying principle, which as I continue to make known, is that Jesus took upon himself God's wrath which we deserve, satisfying it completely. Therefore because it has been satisfied, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. This principle is what many are not understanding nor considering.
And second, those who claim that the church is going to be on the earth to go through God's wrath, it shows a lack of their understanding of the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which make up the majority of God's wrath. The fact is, the church is nowhere mentioned within the narrative of God's wrath and there is therefore no scriptures which state that God protects the church from those plagues of wrath. The only groups that are mentioned as having any kind of protection is the woman/Israel in Rev.12:6, 14 who flees out into the wilderness and is cared for by God during the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. The other is the 144,000 who are said to be exempt from the tormenting stings of those demonic beings who are released from the Abyss at the 5th trumpet, as revealed in Rev.9:4.
By your claim above, I reiterate that you have no understanding of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath and that it will come upon the whole inhabited world.
The way in which God protected Noah, was by having him build an ark so as to escape the flood and afterwards repopulate the earth. Likewise, God had Lot and his family removed from the area before He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities. As for His church, because of His promise and because of the severity of this coming, unprecedented wrath, the Lord will be removing His church from the earth so that He can carry out His wrath instead of protecting His church while on the earth.
[/QUOTE] Anyone believing and teaching a pre-tribulation gathering of the church, is believing and proclaiming the truth! Because the basic principle is that Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon those who are in Christ. Anyone who believes and teaches that the church is going to be on the earth to go through God's wrath, is not truly believing that Christ already satisfied it.[/QUOTE]
What you have quoted above, as so many others have, is the event of when the Lord physically and visually returns to the earth to end the age to establish His millennial kingdom, which is a different event from the gathering of the church. As long as you and others fail to recognize this, your interpretation of end-time events will continue to be in error.
Scriptures Regarding The gathering of The Church:
Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well. In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am." - John 14:1-3
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep (in death), but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. - 1 Corinthians 15:51-53
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
Simon Peter asked him, “Lord, where are you going?” Jesus replied, “Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later.”
Scriptures Regarding the Lord's Return to the Earth to End the Age:
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. - Matthew 24:30-31
Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen. - Revelation 1:7
They (Beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.” - Revelation 17:14
I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. - Revelation 19:11-15
===============================================================
We must be able to discern first of all, that these are two separate events. And secondly, which scriptures belong to which event. If you misapply them to the wrong event, then you will be in error regarding your conclusions of end-time events.
