Was Paul a Torah observant Jew?

[Yahshua]

Because of our sinful nature we are unable to meet the requirements of the law. And when we attempt to meet the requirements of the law, we fail which brings wrath and condemnation. This is why Paul states that he stopped trying to meet the righteous requirements of the Law.

No sir!


Philippians 3:5-6
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Paul says he was blameless touching the righteousness in the law...he just lacked the Messiah.

Recall the scene in the gospels where the rich young ruler came to the Messiah asking what did he need to do to inherit eternal life? The Messiah answered him "obey the commandment". The ruler said, "I've been obedient since my youth." Then Messiah told him he lack one last thing, to follow Him.

Please get rid of the NLT and the Amplified. Talk about refuse. But the Berean version is accurate.


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Regardless of what you claim, Paul was not having faith in Christ and also depending on the law for salvation.

I don't understand why you keep defaulting to the false notion that I'm arguing for keeping the law FOR SALVATION.

The law is not kept for salvation.
The law is not kept for salvation.
The law is not kept for salvation.
The law is not kept for salvation.
The law is not kept for salvation.
The law is not kept for salvation.
The law is not kept for salvation.
The law is not kept for salvation.
The law is not kept for salvation.
The law is not kept for salvation.
The law is not kept for salvation.
The law is not kept for salvation.
The law is not kept for salvation.
The law is not kept for salvation.
The law is not kept for salvation.

Stop adding the "salvation" part to what I'm arguing.

Faith in Messiah for salvation.
Faith in Messiah for salvation.
Faith in Messiah for salvation.
Faith in Messiah for salvation.
Faith in Messiah for salvation.
Faith in Messiah for salvation.
Faith in Messiah for salvation.
Faith in Messiah for salvation.
Faith in Messiah for salvation.
Faith in Messiah for salvation.
Faith in Messiah for salvation.
Faith in Messiah for salvation.
Faith in Messiah for salvation.

After one is saved they are to...

obey the commandments to live righteously
obey the commandments to live righteously
obey the commandments to live righteously
obey the commandments to live righteously
obey the commandments to live righteously
obey the commandments to live righteously
obey the commandments to live righteously
obey the commandments to live righteously
obey the commandments to live righteously
obey the commandments to live righteously
obey the commandments to live righteously
obey the commandments to live righteously
obey the commandments to live righteously
Sin no more

 

[crossnote]

^ True.



^ True.



^ True. Please read this again.



^ True. Please put this verse in your own words for me. I'd like to see if we're reading it the same.



^True.



^ True.

Paul never preached against the law or failed to observe it.

"True. Please read this again."

Romans 3:31 (KJV) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Paul is saying because only Jesus is righteous and kept the law, we establish the law when we place our faith in Him.

True. Please put this verse\|/ in your own words for me. I'd like to see if we're reading it the same.

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(Gal 3:2)

I believe it explains itself in the next two verse...

Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
(Gal 3:3)
Romans 1:17 (KJV) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

They had begun with faith (by which they received God's Spirit, but then resorted to relying on their own strength to live pleasing to God...which is a sure fail.

"Paul never preached against the law or failed to observe it. "

He taught we have been made dead to the law (Rom 7:4), and he taught how that attempted righteousness via the law was also a fail. Rom 7:7-25

 

[Jesusistheway64]

wider why it is that salvation by faith is pitted AGAINST obeying the Lord? There is not one scripture that tells us faith is against works, not one.

I have to agree with you on that.. if you are saved you will show fruit/works... We moral law never ceases

 

[Blik]

Allow me to clarify. The Law is holy and righteous. The problem lies with us, mankind. Because of our sinful nature we are unable to meet the requirements of the law. And when we attempt to meet the requirements of the law, we fail which brings wrath and condemnation. This is why Paul states that he stopped trying to meet the righteous requirements of the Law.

"For through the law I died to the law so that I might live to God." - Berean Study Bible

"For through the Law I died to the Law and its demands on me [because salvation is provided through the death and resurrection of Christ], so that I might [from now on] live to God. - Amplified Bible

"For when I tried to keep the law, it condemned me. So I died to the law—I stopped trying to meet all its requirements—so that I might live for God." - NLT

Jesus also spoke about not mixing the two covenants with the parable of not pouring new wine into old wine skins. If you pour new wine into old wineskins, they will burst and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. This is also taught in the parable of sowing an unshrunk piece of cloth onto an old garment. The new piece will shrink and pull away from the old making the tear worse.

If you have scripture telling us to not obey law because we are unable to do it perfectly please post it.

 

[crossnote]

I have to agree with you on that.. if you are saved you will show fruit/works... We moral law never ceases

True the moral law doesn’t cease but our relationship to it changes…

Romans 7:4 KJV
[4] Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Galatians 2:19 KJV
[19] For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

 

[Blik]

True the moral law doesn’t cease but our relationship to it changes…

Romans 7:4 KJV
[4] Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Galatians 2:19 KJV
[19] For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

We are told in many ways in scripture that Christ died to pay for our sins, and that means any sin the law tells us of. Paul calls that being dead to the law, the law (for us) has no power to kill. That does not mean that Paul is suggesting that we use this way of explaining that to make any other scripture null and void. It is still true that Christ himself told us to obey Him, and to obey Christ is to obey His Father and the law. We are to be righteous through Christ, and Paul tells us if we are freed of sin, why should we want to go back to it.

 

[crossnote]

We are told in many ways in scripture that Christ died to pay for our sins, and that means any sin the law tells us of. Paul calls that being dead to the law, the law (for us) has no power to kill. That does not mean that Paul is suggesting that we use this way of explaining that to make any other scripture null and void. It is still true that Christ himself told us to obey Him, and to obey Christ is to obey His Father and the law. We are to be righteous through Christ, and Paul tells us if we are freed of sin, why should we want to go back to it.

Sorry, but we are not righteous through law keeping. It is faith in Jesus (the fulfillment of the law) that pleases God…

Hebrews 11:6 KJV
[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him : for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Paul exemplified this in his passion for spreading the Gospel…not the law…

2 Corinthians 11:23-28 KJV
[23] Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. [24] Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. [25] Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; [26] In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; [27] In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. [28] Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

…it would be nice if we showed half his passion in spreading the Gospel, rather than the law.

 

[Blik]

Sorry, but we are not righteous through law keeping. It is faith in Jesus (the fulfillment of the law) that pleases God…

Hebrews 11:6 KJV
[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him : for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Paul exemplified this in his passion for spreading the Gospel…not the law…

2 Corinthians 11:23-28 KJV
[23] Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. [24] Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. [25] Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; [26] In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; [27] In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. [28] Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

…it would be nice if we showed half his passion in spreading the Gospel, rather than the law.

Have you ever read a post of mine stating that we are made righteous through law keeping? We are only made righteous through Christ.

But why all the posts that speak of reasons opposed to law keeping? Should a person who is righteous through Christ want to go back to disobedience of law? Why are you so opposed to the idea of obedience to Christ? Christ asked us to obey Him. Christ has never once told us to want to be disobedient.

 

[Blik]

Sorry, but we are not righteous through law keeping. It is faith in Jesus (the fulfillment of the law) that pleases God…

Hebrews 11:6 KJV
[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him : for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Paul exemplified this in his passion for spreading the Gospel…not the law…

2 Corinthians 11:23-28 KJV
[23] Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. [24] Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. [25] Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; [26] In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; [27] In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. [28] Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

…it would be nice if we showed half his passion in spreading the Gospel, rather than the law.

Have you ever read a post of mine stating that we are made righteous through law keeping? We are only made righteous through Christ.

But why all the posts that speak of reasons opposed to law keeping? Should a person who is righteous through Christ want to go back to disobedience of law? Why are you so opposed to the idea of obedience to Christ? Christ asked us to obey Him. Christ has never once told us to want to be disobedient.

 

[Blik]

Sorry, but we are not righteous through law keeping. It is faith in Jesus (the fulfillment of the law) that pleases God…

Hebrews 11:6 KJV
[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him : for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Paul exemplified this in his passion for spreading the Gospel…not the law…

2 Corinthians 11:23-28 KJV
[23] Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. [24] Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. [25] Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; [26] In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; [27] In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. [28] Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

…it would be nice if we showed half his passion in spreading the Gospel, rather than the law.

Have you ever read a post of mine stating that we are made righteous through law keeping? We are only made righteous through Christ.

But why all the posts that speak of reasons opposed to law keeping? Should a person who is righteous through Christ want to go back to disobedience of law? Why are you so opposed to the idea of obedience to Christ? Christ asked us to obey Him. Christ has never once told us to want to be disobedient.

 

[Jesusistheway64]

Have you ever read a post of mine stating that we are made righteous through law keeping? We are only made righteous through Christ.

But why all the posts that speak of reasons opposed to law keeping? Should a person who is righteous through Christ want to go back to disobedience of law? Why are you so opposed to the idea of obedience to Christ? Christ asked us to obey Him. Christ has never once told us to want to be disobedient.

I agree with you 100 percent. If you are saved, there must fruits. The problem is folks want to continue to sin and have a reason to do it. I have a desire to please God. I hate to sin and ask for forgiveness when I do. I understand all the arguments. But Jesus himself told others to go and sin no more. If you love God genuinely, you will want to stop sinning

 

[Cygnus]

Why does everyone use Paul's words to rebut the words of Jesus? I will believe Jesus every time. Jesus tells us in Matthew 5:17-19 about this, then in verse 20 he warns against Self Righteousness in these things. The Servant is not greater than the Master! Paul was a Man, Jesus was the Christ! If you want to rebut Jesus, then use words of Jesus and not Mans.

 

[Jesusistheway64]

Why does everyone use Paul's words to rebut the words of Jesus? I will believe Jesus every time. Jesus tells us in Matthew 5:17-19 about this, then in verse 20 he warns against Self Righteousness in these things. The Servant is not greater than the Master! Paul was a Man, Jesus was the Christ! If you want to rebut Jesus, then use words of Jesus and not Mans.

I know. Isnt that crazy? They do it all the time.. I think they twist Paul's words.. But on the other hand folks that say to keep the law cant keep it themselves...so it goes both ways

 

[Cygnus]

I know. Isnt that crazy? They do it all the time.. I think they twist Paul's words

It brings John 3:11-13 more into focus...

 

[Jesusistheway64]

It brings John 3:11-13 more into focus...

I had to edit my other post. But nobody can keep law anyway..If you break on part of it. You have broken the whole law...I beleive Jesus words.

 

[OldSage]

Have you ever read a post of mine stating that we are made righteous through law keeping? We are only made righteous through Christ.

But why all the posts that speak of reasons opposed to law keeping? Should a person who is righteous through Christ want to go back to disobedience of law? Why are you so opposed to the idea of obedience to Christ? Christ asked us to obey Him. Christ has never once told us to want to be disobedient.

The Law was only introduced because the Israelites were disobedient.
Compared to the higher precepts of Christ's Law, the Mosaic Law just seems
.......obsolete........
...did I make that up?

Hebrews 8 13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

 

[Cygnus]

The Law was only introduced because the Israelites were disobedient.
Compared to the higher precepts of Christ's Law, the Mosaic Law just seems
.......obsolete........
...did I make that up?

Hebrews 8 13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

I would draw a distinction between Jewish Religious Law vs. the Commandments. God gave the Commandments first, later came all the Religious Law. I am saved by the blood of Jesus. The Commandments help me live a good life, rules to live by if you will. I am not perfect just forgiven. The Commandments remind me of this all the time. So when I start to get haughty over this, I need to remember the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:21-22.

21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

 

[Jesusistheway64]

I would draw a distinction between Jewish Religious Law vs. the Commandments. God gave the Commandments first, later came all the Religious Law. I am saved by the blood of Jesus. The Commandments help me live a good life, rules to live by if you will. I am not perfect just forgiven. The Commandments remind me of this all the time. So when I start to get haughty over this, I need to remember the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:21-22.

21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Amen bother.. I think we all forgetting to love one another as God commanded.

 

[crossnote]

Have you ever read a post of mine stating that we are made righteous through law keeping? We are only made righteous through Christ.

But why all the posts that speak of reasons opposed to law keeping? Should a person who is righteous through Christ want to go back to disobedience of law? Why are you so opposed to the idea of obedience to Christ? Christ asked us to obey Him. Christ has never once told us to want to be disobedient.

Why all the emphasis on law keeping when it is faith that pleases God from my post you just quoted.
why are you opposed to the concept of faith in our walk with God? Did Jesus send us out in this world to preach law or the Good news of Jesus Christ?

Galatians 3:12 KJV
[12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.


Romans 1:5 KJV
[5] By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:


Romans 16:26 KJV
[26] But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

 

[Blik]

Paul started out with his teaching including elements of the Law . . . bits and pieces of it, but later he began to teach that Christ ultimately separates us from all worldly laws. True Christians who understand Spiritual Circumcision, and have Turned to Christ for His Holy Operation of Faith, these Righteous Ones are no longer judged by any worldly law, but by the Laws of the Spirit of Life . . . the Indwelling Holy Spirit.

We are not so separated from all worldly law that our bodily actions are not judged.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.