Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[Absolutely]

You dudes on here think because you write books...Sarcasm intended. That you are so wise. Yall have no wisdom whatsoever. There is alot more going on in this world. I am wide awake. I will tell you one more time. The fake rapture was made by a luciferian named Darby. Do you know who runs the main stream Churches. Do you have any idea why steeples are on Churches? The whole world is decieved right now. The Bible is quite clear that Devil has decieved the whole world.

Only postribbers invoke darby.

Ironically he is part of your doctrine....not ours.

You guys pull him like a sixgun shooting blanks.

Post a verse showing a postrib rapture.

 

[Jesusistheway64]

Rev 14 jesus comes on a cloud during the gt and harvests ripe fruit holding a sickle in his hand.

Maybe you never saw that.

Ok...two second comings? Ok

 

[Jesusistheway64]

Only postribbers invoke darby.

Ironically he is part of your doctrine....not ours.

You guys pull him like a sixgun shooting blanks.

Post a verse showing a postrib rapture.

They have been posting for the last two days... you just like to argue.. The true side and the fake will never agree. Because the fake side has an agenda.. Mr. Darby invented it.. it's time to research what's really going on. The whole world is decieved including the Church.

 

[Jesusistheway64]

They have been posting for the last two days... you just like to argue.. The true side and the fake will never agree. Because the fake side has an agenda.. Mr. Darby invented it.. it's time to research what's really going on. The whole world is decieved including the Church.

They have been dividing and conquering the masses for a very long time. It's in everything. They divide the races, religon, politics. It never ends. Look around you. The media is always dividing us. It's the same with the Church. All these churches claiming they are the way. They have the Churches all distracted.

 

[Jesusistheway64]

Only postribbers invoke darby.

Ironically he is part of your doctrine....not ours.

You guys pull him like a sixgun shooting blanks.

Post a verse showing a postrib rapture.

Darby was a mason and a deciever...

 

[Jesusistheway64]

Darby was a mason and a deciever...

He is one of the most polite members here. You got that backwards.

Maybe read he said..ok

 

[FreeGrace2]

complete article that proves a pre-trib rapture

Pre-Trib Rapture Arguments
By Daymond Duck
https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3967495/posts

OK, here are the first 20:

It is a list of 45 reasons why I believe the Pre-Trib Rapture is right (save it so you can give it to Mid-Trib believers, Post-Trib believers, unsure believers, etc.).
1) There are no passages in either the Old Testament or the New Testament that say the Church will go through the Tribulation Period. [/QUOTE]
More importantly, there are no passages in the Bible that show Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. Boom!

2) The Tribulation Period is called the “Time of Jacob’s Trouble” (The time of unbelieving Israel’s Trouble), but it is never called the time of the Church’s Trouble (Jer. 30:7).

According to chronology and math regarding an OT prophesy, God promised Israel 490 years, and at the 483 yr mark, Jesus was "cut off" (crucifixion). So God owes Israel 7 more years. Tribulation. Boom!

3) Gabriel told Daniel, “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people [Daniel’s people are the Jews] and upon thy holy city” (The Holy City is Jerusalem) (Dan. 9:24). There is no mention of the Church.

Why would there be? In Daniel's day, there was NO understanding of the Church. Boom!

4) The Church had no part in the first sixty-nine weeks, and it will have no part in the seventieth week (the Tribulation Period) (Dan. 9:24).

Mere speculation.

5) In the Book of Revelation, the Rapture occurs at Rev. 4:1, which is before the Tribulation Period described in Rev. 6:1-19:21. In the sequence of events, the Rapture is before the seal, trumpet and bowl judgments.

Very poor exegesis. Rev 4:1 says nothing about a rapture.

6) The Church is mentioned more than twenty times in the first three chapters of Revelation, but the Church is never mentioned in the description of the Tribulation Period between Rev. 4:1 and Rev. 19:1.

So what? The church is mentioned in the last chapter, 22:16. The entire book is FOR the church.

The Tribulation Period is called a Day of Wrath in the Bible (Zeph 1:15), but the Bible says, “God hath not appointed us (the Church) to wrath” (1 Thess. 5:9).

And Rev 3:10 makes clear who will avoid the "hour of trial", believers who endure in the faith. Those who are unfaithful and disobedient will experience the "sin unto death" (discipline by physical death) in 1 John 5:16, and examples throughout the OT and NT.

8) The Tribulation Period is called a Day of Wrath in the Bible (Zeph. 1:15), but the Bible says, Jesus has “delivered us from the wrath to come” (delivered the Church from the Tribulation Period) (1 Thess. 1:10; also see Rom. 5:9, Eph. 5:6).

Israel lived IN Egypt but was spared all 10 of the plagues of Egypt. It seems pretribbers have no confidence in God's aim.

9) The Tribulation Period is called the Day of the Lord in the Bible (Zeph. 1:14). The Bible says, “the day of the Lord (the Tribulation Period) so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they (the unbelievers) shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them (upon the unbelievers), as travail upon a woman with child; and they (the unbelievers) shall not escape” (1 Thess. 5:2-3). It clearly teaches that the Tribulation Period will come upon unbelievers, but it does not include believers.

More speculation.

10) Concerning the Rapture, the Bible says, “Comfort one another with these words” (1 Thess. 4:18). There’s no comfort in the teaching that the Church will go through part or all of the Tribulation Period.

In the most quoted passage regarding the rapture, there is NO MENTION of Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

11) Jesus told the Church at Philadelphia, “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation (the Tribulation Period), which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth” (Rev. 3:10). God promised to keep the obedient Church members out of the Tribulation Period (not through the Tribulation Period).

Right. The obedient believers. This is not a blanket promise that the church will be removed from the earth.

12) According to the Bible, the marriage of the Lamb will take place in heaven before Jesus comes back to fight the Battle of Armageddon at the end of the Tribulation Period (Rev. 19:7-21). This means the Church will go to heaven (be Raptured) for the marriage of the Lamb before the Second Coming.

Rev 19 reveals only the preparation for the wedding supper. What immediately follows is Jesus taking the heaven dwellers with Him to end the battle of Armageddon. There are no words showing the supper occurring. More speculation.

13) The end of the age will be like the days of Noah (Matt. 24:37). Noah and his family were removed from the earth (got on the ark) before the flood. Some believe this means that the Church will be removed from the earth before the judgment of God (Raptured before the Tribulation Period) (Gen. 7:23).

Very poor exegesis again. Noah was NOT "removed from the earth". He simply floated above the ground while mankind was being eliminated.

14) The end of the age will be like the days of Lot (Luke 17:28). Lot and his family were removed from Sodom before the judgment of God (before the fire and brimstone fell) (Gen. 19:16). Some believe this means that the Church will be removed from the earth before the judgment of God (Raptured before the Tribulation Period).

Lot wasn't removed. He WALKED away to avoid the fire and brimestone. And he sure wasn't removed from the earth. In fact, he ended up in a cave and impregnated his 2 virgin daughters. How's that for an "example" of a rapture.

15) Jesus was talking about the Tribulation Period when He said, “Pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass” (Luke 21:36). It seems unreasonable to believe Jesus would tell the Church to pray for something He is unwilling to grant.

This goes directly along with Rev 3:10. Only the enduring believers will miss God's wrath upon the earth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here are more of the points of the article:

16) The Bible says, “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming” (2 Thess. 2:7-8). The most common interpretation of this is that the Antichrist can’t be revealed until the Restrainer (who most commentators say is both the Holy Spirit and the Church) is removed. If the Restrainer is the Church only, this means the Church will be removed before the Antichrist is revealed (that’s the Pre-Trib. Rapture). If the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit only so that the Holy Spirit is removed without the Church, this means believers will cease to be indwelt with the Holy Spirit.
It also means the Church will be left behind to go through the worst time the earth has ever seen (the Tribulation Period) without the help of the Holy Spirit. This would contradict the teaching of Jesus when He said, “I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever” (John 14:16). And, “I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee” (Heb. 13:5).

Wow!! This guy ignores the first 3 verses of 2 Thess 2. In v.1 we see clearly that the rapture "gathered to Him" occurs AT the Second Advent (His coming). Unbelievable! 2 Thess 2:1 DIRECTLY SAYS WHEN THE RAPTURE WILL OCCUR; AT THE 2ND ADVENT.

17) Isaiah wrote that God said, “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain” (Isa. 26:19-21).
Notice that the dead rise first (that’s the Rapture); next, God’s people are summoned to enter into His chambers for a short while until the indignation (a name of the Tribulation Period) is past. God will raise the dead and summon His people because He intends to punish the inhabitants of the earth (send the Tribulation Period).

This is all speculation. It says nothing about Jesus taking anyone to heaven before the Trib.

18) Malachi wrote that God said, “They shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not” (Malachi 3:17-18). Pre-Tribulation teachers believe God is saying He will come for His Church (the Rapture), and then He will return with His Church (the Second Coming) to judge between the righteous and wicked.

Sure. These teachers assume things that the Bible doesn't teach.

19) In the Rapture, Jesus comes for His Church (1 Thess. 4:16-17; John 14:3). When He comes at the end of the Tribulation Period, He will come with His Church (1 Thess. 3:13; Rev. 19:14).

Actually, 1 Thess 4 is the most commonly quoted passage regarding a pretrib rapture and shows Jesus BRINGING with Him all the dead believers from heaven to meet all the living believers in the clouds in the air of earth.

20) Concerning the Second Coming, Jesus said, “But of the day and the hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only” (Matt. 24:36). But if the Church goes through the Tribulation Period, some will know the day because it will be seven years from the signing of the seven-year covenant. Some will know the day because it will be 1,260 days from the day the Antichrist defiles the Temple (Rev. 12:6).

The author simply failed to read or understand correctly.

What Jesus said what that no one knows the DAY or HOUR. He said nothing about the year, or even month. Once the Trib onset can be determined by what Revelation reveals, all that can be known is the probable year.

 

[Jesusistheway64]

OK, here are the first 20:

It is a list of 45 reasons why I believe the Pre-Trib Rapture is right (save it so you can give it to Mid-Trib believers, Post-Trib believers, unsure believers, etc.).
1) There are no passages in either the Old Testament or the New Testament that say the Church will go through the Tribulation Period.

More importantly, there are no passages in the Bible that show Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. Boom!


According to chronology and math regarding an OT prophesy, God promised Israel 490 years, and at the 483 yr mark, Jesus was "cut off" (crucifixion). So God owes Israel 7 more years. Tribulation. Boom!


Why would there be? In Daniel's day, there was NO understanding of the Church. Boom!


Mere speculation.


Very poor exegesis. Rev 4:1 says nothing about a rapture.


So what? The church is mentioned in the last chapter, 22:16. The entire book is FOR the church.


And Rev 3:10 makes clear who will avoid the "hour of trial", believers who endure in the faith. Those who are unfaithful and disobedient will experience the "sin unto death" (discipline by physical death) in 1 John 5:16, and examples throughout the OT and NT.


Israel lived IN Egypt but was spared all 10 of the plagues of Egypt. It seems pretribbers have no confidence in God's aim.


More speculation.


In the most quoted passage regarding the rapture, there is NO MENTION of Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.


Right. The obedient believers. This is not a blanket promise that the church will be removed from the earth.


Rev 19 reveals only the preparation for the wedding supper. What immediately follows is Jesus taking the heaven dwellers with Him to end the battle of Armageddon. There are no words showing the supper occurring. More speculation.


Very poor exegesis again. Noah was NOT "removed from the earth". He simply floated above the ground while mankind was being eliminated.


Lot wasn't removed. He WALKED away to avoid the fire and brimestone. And he sure wasn't removed from the earth. In fact, he ended up in a cave and impregnated his 2 virgin daughters. How's that for an "example" of a rapture.


This goes directly along with Rev 3:10. Only the enduring believers will miss God's wrath upon the earth.[/QUOTE]

Wow...now that was pretty cut and dry...you are wise. You get right to point.

 

[FreeGrace2]

35) There are no signs of the Rapture, but if the Rapture takes place during the Tribulation Period, it would have to be after the seven-year covenant is signed by the Antichrist and perhaps after several other things, depending upon what a person believes about Mid-Trib, Post-Trib, etc.

The signs of the rapture are the same signs as for the 2nd Advent, since 2 Thess 2:1 clearly shows that they occur together.

36) Jesus said, “When these things (the signs) begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads for your redemption draweth nigh” (Luke 21:28). He didn’t say, “After all these things have happened, your redemption draweth nigh.” He said, “When these things begin to come to pass, it’s close.”

Clearly 2nd Advent. Eph 1:14 - who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

This refers to our resurrection/rapture. So Luke 21:28 is about the 2nd Advent.

37) The Church won’t go through the Tribulation Period because God intends to use the 144,000 children of Israel, the Two Witnesses, and an angel to preach the gospel during the Tribulation Period. He wouldn’t need or use Jews or an angel to preach the gospel if the Church was here.

More pure speculation. No verse supports this theory.

38) We are ambassadors for Christ (2 Cor. 5:20), and ambassadors are called home before war breaks out (before the Tribulation Period).

More speculation. No verse supports this theory.

39) Daniel was a type of the Church and not present when Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego (Jews; types of Israel) are in the fiery furnace (type of Tribulation Period).

No, Daniel ISN'T a type of the Church. There was NO KNOWLEDGE of the church in the OT. In fact, Paul made clear that the church was a total mystery to the OT prophets.

40) If Jesus is already headed down to earth at the end of the Tribulation Period, there is no reason why we would need to be caught up to meet Him in the air.

Again, just pure speculation and opinion. 2 Thess 2:1 is very clear about when the rapture occurs.

41) If the post-Trib Rapture is true, those that are left behind after the Rapture will not need to hear the gospel from the 144,000, etc., because they will immediately be removed from the earth and cast into outer darkness.

This guy clearly doesn't understand the sequence of events described in Revelation. When Jesus returns at the 2nd Advent, He will END the battle of Armageddon and set up His Millennial Kingdom, where He will "rule the nations with a rod of iron", with all the resurrected and raptured believers will serve Him in His kingdom.

42) If the post-Trib Rapture is true, and the Church is on earth during the Tribulation Period, but God uses the 144,000 Jewish evangelists, etc., instead of the Church, then the Church has rejected Jesus, or He has rejected the Church.

More speculation and opinion.

43) The Tribulation Period is meant for the redemption of Israel (Dan. 9:24), not for the redemption of the Church (Jesus redeemed the Church by His death on the cross (1 Pet. 1:18-19).

The church doesn't need 'redemption'. Not until they are resurrected/raptured and receive their immortal bodies.

44) There is nothing unusual about Jesus keeping the Church out of the Tribulation Period. He has a history of protecting His people from tribulation on special occasions. He protected the Hebrews from the Ten Plagues, Noah and his family from the Flood, and Lot from Sodom and Gomorrah. He will seal and protect the 144,000 during the Tribulation Period, and He will protect the Jews in Judea that flee into the wilderness during the last half of the Tribulation Period. There is no reason to believe He won’t protect the Church.

None of these examples parallels a pretrib rapture scenario.

45) The timing of the Rapture should be based on Scripture, not what others believed many years ago unless they backed it up with Scripture.

With this one, I fully agree!! It should be based on Scripture. And it is shown in 2 Thess 2:1 that the rapture occurs at the 2nd Advent.

complete article that proves a pre-trib rapture

The article has been refuted.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Only postribbers invoke darby.

Which posttribbers quote him? You seem to mention him quite a bit.

Post a verse showing a postrib rapture.

2 Thess 2:1 does, quite clearly.

Why won't you take my challenge that would prove me wrong, since you are so confident of your position?

 

[1LoverofGod]

I'm new here. I Came to the wrong board. I had hoped to see love among brothers even in disagreements. I see a lot of arrogant comments applied to one another that have no room in the body of Christ. Even the Apostles disagreed among one another but scripture has no references to such disunity and lack of love between them. I dont Point my observations to the administrators here but those who are expressing the unloving attitudes toward one another is being observed by unsaved lurkers and it does impact their view of the church. We are to represent Christ as His church and I'm saddened to see the manner that some here are representing Him. I will leave now and the Administration can remove my registration.

 

[Justified]

Its a day when you won like Paul, then when your body of flesh and blood is no longer needed then repeating life is done, you actully go back to where we all came down from, its better than rapture coming for time thats not a spiritaul timeless event, that happens every day. when you wake up more then John 17:5 is yours and mine because we all be like Christ.

What you are saying sounds like part reincarnation {repeating life} and part Mormonism {go back to where we all came down from}. Those ideas are not Christian.

 

[Jesusistheway64]

Jesus was talking about the Tribulation Period when He said, “Pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass” (Luke 21:36). He didn’t say, “Pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to endure some or all of these things that shall come to pass.”

35) There are no signs of the Rapture, but if the Rapture takes place during the Tribulation Period, it would have to be after the seven-year covenant is signed by the Antichrist and perhaps after several other things, depending upon what a person believes about Mid-Trib, Post-Trib, etc.

36) Jesus said, “When these things (the signs) begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads for your redemption draweth nigh” (Luke 21:28). He didn’t say, “After all these things have happened, your redemption draweth nigh.” He said, “When these things begin to come to pass, it’s close.”

37) The Church won’t go through the Tribulation Period because God intends to use the 144,000 children of Israel, the Two Witnesses, and an angel to preach the gospel during the Tribulation Period. He wouldn’t need or use Jews or an angel to preach the gospel if the Church was here.

38) We are ambassadors for Christ (2 Cor. 5:20), and ambassadors are called home before war breaks out (before the Tribulation Period).

39) Daniel was a type of the Church and not present when Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego (Jews; types of Israel) are in the fiery furnace (type of Tribulation Period).

40) If Jesus is already headed down to earth at the end of the Tribulation Period, there is no reason why we would need to be caught up to meet Him in the air.

41) If the post-Trib Rapture is true, those that are left behind after the Rapture will not need to hear the gospel from the 144,000, etc., because they will immediately be removed from the earth and cast into outer darkness.

42) If the post-Trib Rapture is true, and the Church is on earth during the Tribulation Period, but God uses the 144,000 Jewish evangelists, etc., instead of the Church, then the Church has rejected Jesus, or He has rejected the Church.

43) The Tribulation Period is meant for the redemption of Israel (Dan. 9:24), not for the redemption of the Church (Jesus redeemed the Church by His death on the cross (1 Pet. 1:18-19).

44) There is nothing unusual about Jesus keeping the Church out of the Tribulation Period. He has a history of protecting His people from tribulation on special occasions. He protected the Hebrews from the Ten Plagues, Noah and his family from the Flood, and Lot from Sodom and Gomorrah. He will seal and protect the 144,000 during the Tribulation Period, and He will protect the Jews in Judea that flee into the wilderness during the last half of the Tribulation Period. There is no reason to believe He won’t protect the Church.

45) The timing of the Rapture should be based on Scripture, not what others believed many years ago unless they backed it up with Scripture.

complete article that proves a pre-trib rapture


Pre-Trib Rapture Arguments
By Daymond Duck

https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3967495/posts

I'm new here. I Came to the wrong board. I had hoped to see love among brothers even in disagreements. I see a lot of arrogant comments applied to one another that have no room in the body of Christ. Even the Apostles disagreed among one another but scripture has no references to such disunity and lack of love between them. I dont Point my observations to the administrators here but those who are expressing the unloving attitudes toward one another is being observed by unsaved lurkers and it does impact their view of the church. We are to represent Christ as His church and I'm saddened to see the manner that some here are representing Him. I will leave now and the Administration can remove my registration.

Only postribbers invoke darby.

Ironically he is part of your doctrine....not ours.

You guys pull him like a sixgun shooting blanks.

Post a verse showing a postrib rapture.

Nice try...

 

[Ahwatukee]

Ahwatukee,

My question is rather straightforward: when did His return actually become imminent?

My answers with scripture were straightforward. I give you the answers, you ignore them and then ask for more proof. That seems to be the consistent reaction on your part.

"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day on which your Lord will come. But understand this: If the homeowner had known in which watch of the night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. For this reason, you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour you do not expect."

Which part of the Lord "coming at an hour you do not expect" don't you understand as inferring eminency? Here's another one:

"But suppose that servant is wicked and says in his heart, ‘My master will be away a long time.’ 49And he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50The master of that servant will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not anticipate. 51Then he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Every since the Lord's resurrection, His return to gather His church has been imminent, about to happen, in the workings, looming, impending. Do you understand this concept. Since the Lord promised to come and get His church, then it must take place, which means that it is always about to happen, imminent.

 

[Jesusistheway64]

Nice try...

I think you are a troll. because you cant be that stupid? I think people on here have showed you plenty of evidence. You act like one of those BOTS on YouTube that ask the same question over and over. And get an answer and them ask again for proof.

 

[ewq1938]

It does NOT mean [Jesus can come / our Rapture can occur] "at any moment". This is not how "pre-trib" scholars use this term.

That's wrong. Pre-tibbers believe the rapture could happen ten min from now, ten days from now or ten years from now. That's literally an anytime rapture belief.

 

[ewq1938]

Herein lies the problem: one teaches pretrib rapture, another teaches midtrib rapture, another teaches post-trib rapture, another teaches prewrath rapture, and each of them backs up their respective position with scripture.

Yet only one is accurately providing scripture to support their view. The others are providing scripture they don't fully understand because all of it does not support their view at all but they mistakingly believe it does. Only one has their eyes open and can understand when the rapture happens. The others do not and are spiritually blinded.

 

[ewq1938]

I know you were not addressing me, here... but I just wanted to point out that "the Church which is His body" has suffered "persecutionS and tribulationS" ever since its existence from the first century--so for some near-2000 YEARS! (see 2Th1:4, for example, and 2Tim3:12 )... we are not waiting for a "future, specific, LIMITED time-period [i.e. the 7-yr Trib]" in order to experience it!

I have never suffered persecution or tribulation for being a Christian. Sure, some have and continue to but many especially in America etc have not. We all are waiting for the Great Tribulation which will be on a level never seen before and never again afterward. The entire LIVING church will go through that period of Great Tribulation. The rapture is taught by Paul and Christ to come after the Great Tribulation has ended. Not one scripture teaches the rapture is before the Great Tribulation.

 

[Jesusistheway64]

I have never suffered persecution or tribulation for being a Christian. Sure, some have and continue to but many especially in America etc have not. We all are waiting for the Great Tribulation which will be on a level never seen before and never again afterward. The entire LIVING church will go through that period of Great Tribulation. The rapture is taught by Paul and Christ to come after the Great Tribulation has ended. Not one scripture teaches the rapture is before the Great Tribulation.[/QUOTE
Amen. That was perfectly said..