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eternally-gratefull
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an AoD that everyone could see? When did the people see the AOD? So they could run?
Why Daniel's 70th week must be in the future
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
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an AoD that everyone could see? When did the people see the AOD? So they could run?
I don't think so.
I'm not at all convinced that's what Dan 9 says. There is no 7 years covenant in the book of Revelation. There is no 7 years covenant anywhere, except that here we see Messiah confirming a covenant "for one Week." What this means is debatable.
The 70th Week is the final Week of a 70 Weeks period, and so I would assume that confirming this covenant completes the 6 things listed, representing something to do with Abraham's eternal covenant.
The event that confirmed this covenant was the death of Messiah and the end of OT offerings. It brought in the everlasting righteousness of Messiah, the fulfillment of prophecy of our salvation, and the anointing of Christ as the true tabernacle of God.
Jesus may have confirmed this covenant for a portion of the final Week, for 3.5 years, or he may have simply confirmed the covenant on behalf of the final Week. Sounds more true to the spirit of the prophecy, which has to do with, I think Messianic salvation.
read the historical sources I posted. all the answers are there. The christians ran when they saw invading armies.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
1 week = 7 years
“Seventy [e]weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city,
please tell me whan Jesus confirmed any covenant for 1 week with many, and show it from scripture please
"The prince that shall come" is definitely NOT the Messiah, since just prior to that "Messiah is cut off, but not for Himself". How was Messiah cut off but not for Himself? Christ was crucified for the sins of the whole world. Immediately after that "prince that shall come" comes as a destructive force and triggers desolations because of the abomination which he erects. So Christ did not confirm any covenant for seven years. He established the eternal New Covenant. BIG DIFFERENCE!
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Jesus did not say run when you see the Invading army
Matt 24: 16 Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the[c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
this did not happen in 70 ad my friend
Well, let's look at each passages...
Matthew 24:4-9
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Notice each event separated by an "and":
- Deception (4-5)
- Wars & Rumors (6-7)
- Famines (7)
- Pestilences (7)
- Earthquakes (7)
...then
- disciples are afflicted & killed and hated (9)
^This list fits the Seal events of Revelation 6.
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Luke 21:8-19
8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
Notice each event separated by an "and":
- Deception (8)
- Wars & Rumors (9-10)
- Earthquakes (11)
- Famines (11)
- Pestilences (11)
...But before these things...
- Delivered to synagogues, prisons, kings & rulers for testimony (12-15)
"And" continued...
- Betrayed & Killed and hated (16-17)
This list has a parenthetical break mentioning the disciples being delivered to places for their testimony. This break is none other than the events of the book of Acts...which should make perfect sense considering those events occurred AFTER Messiah's Olivet Discourse, death, resurrection and ascension, and the disciples were literally recorded being sent to synagogues, prisons, and rulers to preach the gospel after receiving the Holy Spirit.
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Mark 13:5-13
5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Notice each event separated by an "and":
- Deception (5-6)
- Wars & Rumors (7-8)
- Earthquakes (8)
- Famines (8)
- Troubles (8)
"But take heed..."
- Delivered to councils, synagogues, kings & rulers for testimony (9-11)
"...the gospel must first be published among the nations"
Now...
- Betrayed & Killed and hated (12-13)
This list also has a parenthetical break mentioning the disciples being delivered to places for their testimony. Again, this break in the list is none other than the events of the book of Acts. Again, the disciples were literally recorded being sent to synagogues, prisons, and to rulers to preach the gospel. Outside of this parenthetical break, the original list continues.
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Important Points:
1) Matthew 24 never mentions the disciples being sent to spread the gospel or give a testimony...but WE know that happens first because of the book of acts.
2) Mark 13 and Luke 21 mention the disciples being sent to spread the gospel, and says it happens BEFORE the "beginning of birth pangs" list.
3) The book of Acts records the disciples going through exactly what Messiah mentions they would go through.
4) The "beginning of birth pangs" list ENDS with "their" betrayal by brothers and "their" death as they are "hated of all" for Messiah's sake.
5) The abomination of desolation (or surrounding of Jerusalem) and its pending destruction is mentioned AFTER the betrayal & death.
You misunderstand me in this portion of my post. I never said the false doctrine BEGAN with the Papacy. You ask who the man of sin was from my perspective. My mentioning of Paul's warning (that the deception was already in full swing) was to explain that there were already bishops straying from the truth, particularly the bishop of Rome. He then later grew in power to what we know of him to be historically.
I think you misunderstood me here also. This is the weakness of communicating with text. It often can be received differently than it was intended.
Daniel 9:26 says...
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Historically, we know that Rome's army destroyed the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (temple). This is a fact...so let's plug this fact into the passage...
Daniel 9:26 says...[brackets mine]
and the people of [Rome's] prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Thus the evil prince; the ruler, whose army destroyed the city and sanctuary, would be from Rome.
I'd encourage you to research the early days of the Papacy, as well as the middle ages and dark ages. With respect you're speaking as if folks could just go to a library or to school/college and get educated. It wasn't a democracy. The people didn't vote the pope in, educated or not.
And again with respect, it doesn't matter what you or I see the pope as, he indeed was a ruler historically, both temporal (statehood) and ecclesiastical powers (church). It's what made him so dangerous back then and why the French ended the papacy in 1798.
Today, it's still a state, but only ceremonially. it doesn't have the temporal (world-ruling) power it once had, in fulfillment of Revelation 13:12 from my perspective.
And he shall confirm (gabar) the covenant with many for one week
Gabar - to prevail, have strength, be strong, be powerful, be mighty, be great
Would we not say enforce here? As the overwhelming meaning of 'gabar' intends the use of strength, force.
Here is the (Old) Mosaic-Sinitic Covenant (or is it the Levitical Covenant)?
Leviticus 26 23 And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me;24 Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.25 And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.26 And when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver you your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied.27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury (btw = WRATH); and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.31 And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours.32 And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it.33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.
So 70th week = 7 year Roman-Judean War = (A/The Wrath)
That may be at times, but not always. Consider how well that logic holds up in this case.
3 days = 3 24 hour periods, or 72 hours.
Christ rose on the 3rd day. Therefore, Christ rose after 72 hours.
It doesn't always work that way. There were 70 Weeks. The 1st 69 Weeks had to be full 7 Day Weeks. The last Week is still the 70th Week, whether it is a full Week or not.
Your sense of this passage is predicated on the false assumption that a 7 years covenant was being predicted. It wasn't. Instead, an eternal covenant was being predicted *for* the last and 70th Week. It was the confirmation of an eternal covenant that the 70th Week would see accomplished.
You don't think so? This is what Daniel prayed:
Dan 9.4 I prayed to the Lord my God and confessed:
“Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with those who love him and keep his commandments..."
No, Daniel was being told the process Israel would have to go through to get to this covenant's fulfillment. It would require 70 Weeks. The confirmation of the eternal covenant would come "for" the 70th Week, and would not even require the full Week for this to happen. Jesus' earthly ministry took only half a Week, and he was cut off, bringing to pass the end of sin in Israel, and ushering in his own everlasting righteousness. This is the focus of the prophecy--not prediction of a 7 year Antichristian covenant, which is completely out of place in this passage, and has no real value.
I am still thinking about the anointing.
Really one has to understand what is behind the veil, to understand the Holy of Holies.
But Christ and the Church have become one flesh
Ephesians 5
32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
The Holy of Holies was where God and man met.
In fact the holy of Holies is both Christ & The Church
When the father anointed the head of the Lord, he also anointed the whole Church.
This how I am understanding it
I agree. The Holy of Holies represents Christ, who is both head and body, both Jesus and the Church. It was a square space, indicating individuality, or complete equality and complete unity. Our equality comes from our single source in Christ.
The Holy of Holies contained the ark of the covenant, representing the place where God chose to dwell in us as an eternal covenant, through the redemption of Christ. In Dan 9.24, the anointing of the Most Holy is the anointing of Christ, in my view. And that's how the Church Fathers interpreted it, as well.
Obviously, the prophecy was given while the Jews were still God's exclusive people. And they clearly would not see, as a people, how Christ would fulfill the Tabernacle structure. They were told through this symbolism because the Jews of faith would understand it after it had happened.
In the book of Revelation, much that is said continues to be expressed through this OT symbolism, simply because Christians then understood how the OT imagery was fulfilled in Christ.
Dan 9.26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
Here is the essence of what is being said, in the bold above. Messiah would come to bring final salvation to Israel. But before that happens, the temple will fall on hard times. Sounds a lot like the Olivet Discourse, in which Jesus surprised the Disciples by saying the temple, instead of bringing deliverance to Israel, would instead be destroyed.
Remember the story in which Israel brought the ark into battle, thinking it would win the war with the Philistines? But instead of winning the war, the undeserving Israelites lost the ark to the Philistines. see 1 Sam 4.
The Jewish Religion could not, without purging, bring deliverance to Israel. The temple would have to be destroyed, and a new "temple" set up whereby faithful Israelites could obtain favor with God while the majority fell away.
So here in this prophecy, Dan 9, we see the temple being rebuilt after the Babylonian Captivity. And instead of saying it would bring final salvation for Israel, Daniel is shown that it too would be desolated, along with Jerusalem. This new "holy of holies" had to be anointed, to usher in final salvation. I speak of Christ. With the old temple, Christ was cut off and had nothing.
The covenant established in the 70th Week fulfills all of the things spoken of in 9.24, which I believe has to do with the Messiah. He accomplished those things, even as the Jews largely fell away, along with their temple. So the final Week of Daniel's 70 Weeks had to do with confirming a covenant with the Jews that could not be fulfilled through the Law and through the temple. It would have to be fulfilled through the cutting off both of Messiah and the temple.
In other words, the final Week consists of Christ confirming the Abrahamic Covenant apart from the temple structure. The last Week consisted of Messiah's life until he is cut off. That is when he confirmed the covenant.
I know of no historicist who has made such a claim.
Somehow, I am thinking you really are not at all interested in understanding my POV.
I was referring to the actual person whose character would make the difference of whether they told the truth or a lie.
The key to understanding what this is really saying...
- is - understanding what this is really saying...
- is - understanding what this is really saying...