50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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randyk said:
Where does Jesus saying we will drink wine with him connect to Rev 19? And where does it require that we drink wine *in heaven* and in "disembodied spirits?*
Why assume "My Father's kingdom" means heaven? Why can't it refer to Christ's Millennial kingdom as well?
Where does Jesus saying we will drink wine with him connect to Rev 19? And where does it require that we drink wine *in heaven* and in "disembodied spirits?*
Why assume "My Father's kingdom" means heaven? Why can't it refer to Christ's Millennial kingdom as well?
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I agree with those saying that when Jesus spoke the words in Matthew 26:29 ("...until that day when I drink it NEW with [G3326 - 'accompanying'] you..."), that He was speaking of an "EARTHLY location" (when He RETURNS to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age).
[btw, the event "in Cana" was a "wedding/marriage FEAST," with lots of GUESTS... per vv.9-10...]
[btw, the event "in Cana" was a "wedding/marriage FEAST," with lots of GUESTS... per vv.9-10...]
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NOT IN THE LEAST.
Pre-Tribber's are saying ONLY THE FATHER KNOW when HE will say "Your work is finished, GO GET YOUR BRIDE."
Most likely they are going between Rev. 4:1 but NO LATER than the Tribulation Saints start Arriving in HEAVEN for the Wedding of the LAMB, UNDER THE ALTAR, Rev. 6:8 between 9. But it could happen even earlier than 4:1, while I personally believe it probably happens between Rev. Chapter 3 & 4, BUT always remember, because ONLY THE FATHER KNOWS the Date and Time of the WEDDING.
The reason I say that NO LATER than this date, is these verses:
1 Corinthians 15:22-26 (ESV)
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. {If the Tribulation saint are considered part of the Church-Age, then it could be after verse 9, but if they are considered the Brides Family, then the Rapture happens at the latest between verse 6:8 & 9.}
24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. {So much for the Post-Trib Theory. I am so far removed from that theory, I cannot even imagine how they THING that.}
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
NOTICE THE DISTINCT SEPARATION BETWEEN THE RAPTURE and THE END. That label THE END, is JACOBS TROUBLE.
So in answer your question: We are in heaven attending the wedding of the lamb. That WE, includes O.T. Saints and N.T. Saints in my opinion. SO WE ARE in Heaven at the Seven Year WEDDING; while on EARTH ISRAEL is going through prophesied Jacobs Trouble.
I cannot leave it here without explaining how I came to this conclusion.
Yes, I sought HIM, and asked HIM to give me understanding, and HE DID, beyond my wildest expectation.
Do you know that JESUS never used the Word CHURCH and neither did the the Apostles. What did HE CALL US THEN. It was simply the Assembly. YES, THAT IS THE SAME THING HE CALLED O.T. SAINTS too.
Matthew 16:18 (NASB)
18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church {that is not what HE said,}; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
Only Young's Literal Translation of all the version's I had checked, had the guts to TRANSLATE what HE Literally Said. It seems the so-called CHURCH, wanted to distance themselves from the JEWS. Isn't that a form of Prejudice? I found out it was about the TURN of the First Century when they added that definition "CHURCH" to the GREEK Dictionary.
Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;
Now that is not all that I discovered:
John 10:15-16 (HCSB)
15 as the Father knows Me, and I know the Father. I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 But I have other sheep that are not of this fold; {HE is speaking to the Last of the O.T. Assembly} I must bring them also,
and they will listen to My voice {HE is referring to the N.T. Assembly}. Then there will be one flock, one shepherd.
{THEN, at the RAPTURE, we will Become ONE FLOCK.}
Yes, I believe O.T. Saints, and N.T. Saints are CO-EQUALLY part of the BRIDE OF CHRIST.
O.T. Assembly = Those who believe GOD would Send the Messiah to pay for their Sins.
N.T. Assembly = Those who believe GOD did Send the Messiah to pay for their Sins.
That is the SAME FAITH, the Faith of Abraham.
I think you would enjoy another thread that I started in July 17th, 2021, entitled: Third Temple News. It is not about Prophesy, but rather News from ISRAEL on things that advanced building of the Third Temple, or things that hindered the building of the Third Temple. Here is the Link, give me your opinion on the last page, and then if you like it, I invite you to look at the rest.
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/third-temple-news.155526/
There is nothing there that says God's Kingdom will be in heaven, and not on the earth. In fact, Jesus said the Kingdom is near to earth, and will actually be here on the earth. So the wine that Jesus promised to have with his disciples will be here on earth, where God's Kingdom will one day land.
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When John was shown the kingdom described in Rev 21 was it on Earth or in Heaven at that time.
When Moses was given the plans for the sanctuary what was it a copy of?
Up until today we have not seen or are capable of building the city described in Rev 21 it is Huge and the amount of precious stones and metals in it is not something that this Earth can give. So if it exists today it must be in Heaven.
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
There is a kingdom in Heaven now, today. and God and Jesus are there ( He went to prepare a place for the saved). Do we go there or is the kingdom going to come to the Earth.
Both... The coming of Jesus is to take the saints home to the kingdom for the 1000 years while the devil is locked on the Earth. then the Lord will come with the saints and the kingdom and destroy the devil and sin and those raised in the second resurrection.
That is the order described in Rev.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
When Moses was given the plans for the sanctuary what was it a copy of?
Up until today we have not seen or are capable of building the city described in Rev 21 it is Huge and the amount of precious stones and metals in it is not something that this Earth can give. So if it exists today it must be in Heaven.
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
There is a kingdom in Heaven now, today. and God and Jesus are there ( He went to prepare a place for the saved). Do we go there or is the kingdom going to come to the Earth.
Both... The coming of Jesus is to take the saints home to the kingdom for the 1000 years while the devil is locked on the Earth. then the Lord will come with the saints and the kingdom and destroy the devil and sin and those raised in the second resurrection.
That is the order described in Rev.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
At what point is the Earth recreated and made new?
Before or after the 1000 years?
When will the New Jerusalem with the saints come to the Earth?
20:4...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth,
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Before or after the 1000 years?
When will the New Jerusalem with the saints come to the Earth?
20:4...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth,
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Your answer is somewhat confusing to me.
Are you saying that the Thessalonians SAW NO BELIEVERS MISSING, so Paul felt the need to write and tell them, "right, no believers are missing, not even me. Ta da! The false claim is untrue!"
Are you saying that the Thessalonians SAW NO BELIEVERS MISSING, so Paul felt the need to write and tell them, "right, no believers are missing, not even me. Ta da! The false claim is untrue!"
The strange thing is that pretribbers wants to convince that Messiah is speaking to Jewish Christians only, and not to Gentile Christians towards the end of Matthew 24, but pretribbers says Messiah speaks to Gentile Christian believers in Matthew 25... The pretrib doctrine dumbfounds posttribbers that would like to look at God's Word holistically...
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At the start of the 70th week's 7 years, the anti messiah makes an agreement with many and even the Jews see him as their messiah (not as God however). Midway, or 3.5 years into the 7 years the false messiah demands to be worshipped (2 Thess 2:1-3) as the only god in God's temple, and the tribulation for the non-worshipping Christians (and Jews who worships God alone) starts.
Rom 11-
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,
26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
OK, here's the verse. Where and what is this "gap" that you speak of?
Thanks.
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,
26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
OK, here's the verse. Where and what is this "gap" that you speak of?
Thanks.
After Solomon, David's former monarchic kingdom of Israel split into the 9 1/2 tribes northern Samarian Ephraimite kingom and the 3 tribes southern Jewish Judaic kingdom.
After around 744BC the northern tribes kingdom was taken into captivity by Assyria, NEVER to return. This Ephraim part of Israel are to this day scattered among the Gentiles, unknown of their identity as ancestors of the 9 1/2 tribes of Jacob, as opposed to Jewish Judaic Israel, who knows their identity, although also sometimes still living among the Gentiles.
After around 744BC the northern tribes kingdom was taken into captivity by Assyria, NEVER to return. This Ephraim part of Israel are to this day scattered among the Gentiles, unknown of their identity as ancestors of the 9 1/2 tribes of Jacob, as opposed to Jewish Judaic Israel, who knows their identity, although also sometimes still living among the Gentiles.
In my fathers house are many mansions,I go to prepare a place for you that where i am you may be also.
Vividly pictured.
Concerning Gods kingdom NOT BEING IN HEAVEN.
You postribs are needing a award for most bizarre reframing of the bible.
Matthew 13:11
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 13:24
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 13:31
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 13:33
Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 13:44
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 13:45
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 13:47
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 13:52
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 14:19
And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his disciples, and the disciples to ....
Heb 1
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Ahem
Enthroned...in heaven.
Kingdom of God
Kingdom of heaven
Right now in heaven
Right now also SPIRITUALLY AND FIGURATIVELY ON THIS PLANET IN US. WE ARE THE TEMPLE.
Future in both the mil and forever in the new Jerusalem
Very basic. No extra charge
Pretrib rapture only ,embraces all truth. We need no reframing.
Vividly pictured.
Concerning Gods kingdom NOT BEING IN HEAVEN.
You postribs are needing a award for most bizarre reframing of the bible.
Matthew 13:11
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 13:24
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 13:31
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 13:33
Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 13:44
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 13:45
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 13:47
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 13:52
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 14:19
And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his disciples, and the disciples to ....
Heb 1
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Ahem
Enthroned...in heaven.
Kingdom of God
Kingdom of heaven
Right now in heaven
Right now also SPIRITUALLY AND FIGURATIVELY ON THIS PLANET IN US. WE ARE THE TEMPLE.
Future in both the mil and forever in the new Jerusalem
Very basic. No extra charge
Pretrib rapture only ,embraces all truth. We need no reframing.