50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[VCO]

Where do I get my STRONG BELIEVE in a PRE-TRIB Rapture ?

Mostly from ZOLA LEVITT. I came to accept, if we did not understand customs and traditions, we were apt to fail to understand the FULNESS OF SCRIPTURE. If you do not under Jewish Customs of Marriage, you cannot fully understand the significance of how CHRIST chose US as his Bride. Zola Levitt was led to the LORD by a Baptist Minister.

Here are some Precious Videos from the late ZOLA LEVITT, you will UNDERSTAND more if you watch them, of HOW JESUS IS THE FULFILMENT OF ALL SEVEN FEASTS OF ISRAEL. https://www.levitt.tv/media/series/DSFI

So I spent some time Learning from some Messianic Christians. WHAT A BLESSING!

Here are a couple of other sources from Messianic Christians and other who have discovered studying Jewish customs can give you a deeper understanding of some verses:

https://www.rapturebibletruth.com/a...stoms--jesus-christ-his-bride-the-church.html

https://thectp.org/notes/bride/bride_2.pdf

 

[BenjaminN]

Where do I get my STRONG BELIEVE in a PRE-TRIB Rapture ?

Mostly from ZOLA LEVITT. I came to accept, if we did not understand customs and traditions, we were apt to fail to understand the FULNESS OF SCRIPTURE. If you do not under Jewish Customs of Marriage, you cannot fully understand the significance of how CHRIST chose US as his Bride. Zola Levitt was led to the LORD by a Baptist Minister.

Here are some Precious Videos from the late ZOLA LEVITT, you will UNDERSTAND more if you watch them, of HOW JESUS IS THE FULFILMENT OF ALL SEVEN FEASTS OF ISRAEL. https://www.levitt.tv/media/series/DSFI

So I spent some time Learning from some Messianic Christians. WHAT A BLESSING!

Here are a couple of other sources from Messianic Christians and other who have discovered studying Jewish customs can give you a deeper understanding of some verses:

https://www.rapturebibletruth.com/a...stoms--jesus-christ-his-bride-the-church.html

https://thectp.org/notes/bride/bride_2.pdf

Are pretribbers saying that Jacob's trouble is a Jewish wedding feast... now you're confusing this postribber of you stance...

 

[randyk]

Where do I get my STRONG BELIEVE in a PRE-TRIB Rapture ?

Mostly from ZOLA LEVITT. I came to accept, if we did not understand customs and traditions, we were apt to fail to understand the FULNESS OF SCRIPTURE. If you do not under Jewish Customs of Marriage, you cannot fully understand the significance of how CHRIST chose US as his Bride. Zola Levitt was led to the LORD by a Baptist Minister.

Here are some Precious Videos from the late ZOLA LEVITT, you will UNDERSTAND more if you watch them, of HOW JESUS IS THE FULFILMENT OF ALL SEVEN FEASTS OF ISRAEL. https://www.levitt.tv/media/series/DSFI

So I spent some time Learning from some Messianic Christians. WHAT A BLESSING!

Here are a couple of other sources from Messianic Christians and other who have discovered studying Jewish customs can give you a deeper understanding of some verses:

https://www.rapturebibletruth.com/a...stoms--jesus-christ-his-bride-the-church.html

https://thectp.org/notes/bride/bride_2.pdf

Anybody can draw out from a Jewish custom any kind of eschtological scenario, if they choose to. Parables are not very "theological" in form.

I wrote Zola Levitt many years ago. I think the first book of his I read was "How Did a Fat, Balding, Middle-Aged Jew Like You Become a Jesus Freak?" He apparently had an underling write me back, challenging me to read, I think it was, Dwight Pentecost's "Things To Come." By that time I had already read numerous Pretrib materials, and didn't think I needed the redundancy. At any rate, the person at Levitt's ministry would not engage me on the subject unless I first read that book, which I declined to do.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Postrib rapture...as i have solidly laid out, is impossible.

You've laid out nothing about a pretrib rapture. No verses. Nothing.

You need the impossible.

Post trib is reality.

You NEED Noah DELIVERED post flood (judgment).

Wasn't Noah delivered from the flood? Of course he was.

You NEED Lot DELIVERED post judgement

Minus the incest nonsense, wasn't Lot delivered from the fire and brimstone (judgment)?

You NEED a disembodied bride drinking wine.

Since there is NO wedding in heaven, no one becomes disembodied. The believers who have died and are already in heaven get prepared for the wedding and then accompany Christ to earth to meet with the living believers while Christ ends the battle of Armageddon and sets up His kingdom, where the first event is the wedding supper.

Makes perfect sense and is supported by Scripture. 2 Thess 2:1

You NEED rev 14 GATHERING DURING the trib BY JESUS CUT FROM THE BIBLE.

Nope. We don't. That's just another fantasy of yours.

yes it is comical. And i do get a chuckle from that and postribs trying to unpack the 10 virgin parable.

What is comical is trying to force a pretrib story in the 10 virgin parable. One is forced to highly spiritualize it to get there.

In fact, that parable isn't even about a rapture. And that would be comical, if it weren't so sad.

All that investment on a failed doctrine.

The only failed doctrine is a pretrib, mid trip and prewrath rapture doctrine.

The only real rapture doctrine is Jesus coming back at the Second Advent.

Glad God is decisive in his Holy Word.

I'm glad too. Too bad Satan has deceived so many believers into thinking they will miss the trib, and so confident of it.

So when the trib becomes so obvious that it has begun, there's a real possibility of many believer's faith failing over it.

Which is what Satan wants.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Like i pointed out. You have zero verses.

We alone deliver the substance.
The actual verses.

Amazing boast. Especially since you have zero verses that show Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

And you have to pervert 2 Thess 2:1 to say what you say.

Just amazing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

randyk said:
If there is an argument in there somewhere I'm missing it! Seems just like so much venting.

Just be happy with your own beliefs. And I'll be happy with what I think the Bible teaches. This isn't a battle between us--we're on the same side. But we have to stick with our own conscience on these matters. I think the Bible teaches Postrib, and you don't. Fine.

Yes you are missing it.
You claim no raptured go to heaven

Because there are NO VERSES that show any raptured believers going to heaven. Why should anyone believe that raptured believers go to heaven?

That means all the business done in heaven like the marriage supper, drinking wine, and the bride becoming the wife.....all that is done with the saints disembodied .

No it doesn't. You just don't want to believe the truth. So you make up false claims.

That is your doctrines fallacy.

The fallacy is believing raptured believers go to heaven when there are NO verses that show that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
And 2 Thess 2:1-3 nails a post trib rapture, that occurs with the Second Advent of Christ.

The pretribbers just don't have any evidence for Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

What part of " revealed" is twisted into postrib?

Let's start at v.1. The verse you are FORCED TO IGNORE OR REJECT.

But, to answer your question, v.3 clearly says that the coming of the Lord "shall NOT come" before the falling away occurs FIRST and the man of sin (aka a/c) is revealed. What's so hard to understand about this?

iow, before Christ returns and raptures living believers, the "falling away occurs" and the a/c is revealed FIRST.

That is what Paul was saying.

Or is the whole 3 verses which point to nothing of your doctrine what you are hoping to void the pretrib verses?

Why do you think the "whole 3 verses which point to nothing" of a post trib rapture, when that is exactly what they say?

It seems clear to me that you just don't want to understand.

The Bible uses the phrase "refused to believe" in Acts 14:2 and 19:9. Fits your antics perfectly.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Postrib rapture...as i have solidly laid out, is impossible.

I've already squashed your so-called solid claims against it.

You need the impossible.

You NEED Noah DELIVERED post flood.

You NEED Lot DELIVERED post judgement

You NEED a disembodied bride drinking wine.

You NEED rev 14 GATHERING DURING the trib BY JESUS CUT FROM THE BIBLE.

See post 5064.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Anybody can draw out from a Jewish custom any kind of eschtological scenario, if they choose to. Parables are not very "theological" in form.

Right! It's called spiritualizing parables.

That way, the spiritualizes can make up whatever definition/etc they want and it can neither be proven or refuted. It's just the opinion of the spiritualizer changing a parable into whatever they want it to mean.

 

[ewq1938]

randyk said:
If there is an argument in there somewhere I'm missing it! Seems just like so much venting.

Just be happy with your own beliefs. And I'll be happy with what I think the Bible teaches. This isn't a battle between us--we're on the same side. But we have to stick with our own conscience on these matters. I think the Bible teaches Postrib, and you don't. Fine.

Randy is post-trib. I have known him for years.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Randy is post-trib. I have known him for years.

I know. His post was to Abs.

 

[randyk]

I know. His post was to Abs.

He was right that we go back a few years!

 

[cv5]

Are pretribbers saying that Jacob's trouble is a Jewish wedding feast... now you're confusing this postribber of you stance...

Try to keep up. In no way do pre-tribbers think anything of the sort. Nor has anything like that been posted on this thread.

I think you need to hit the books because you sound awfully confused....

 

[Mem]

Okay, I get you... you think the "FALSE CLAIM" that Paul is pointing out in v.2 is saying: "that the RAPTURE is already happened"... and that the Thessalonians would be stupid enough to believe such a false claim, despite having ZERO EVIDENCE to that effect, ... so much so that Paul concerns himself enough to compose a LETTER to them cautioning them not to be disturbed / shaken in mind / troubled by such a [utterly baseless / ZERO-evidenced] "false claim".


I thoroughly disagree that this is the sense of the passage, or the point Paul is conveying here in this context.

But believe that if you wish. You're free to think so.

YEs. If I am right, and Paul is indeed speaking of the rapture event, and his reader are disturbed because of false claims and have need of the reassurance from his letter that it has not happened, then it would follow that the absence of Christians wouldn't be (even expected as) any sort of evidence that it has happened. Otherwise, they would indeed have cause for alarm, nor expect his letter assuming he would certainly be among those 'raptured' and hence no longer any possibility of receiving any more letters from Paul.

 

[Absolutely]

"""Postrib. They entered into the restored earth *after* the Flood. There salvation was in entering into the new earth, and not just in being spared death through the Flood. They certainly weren't taken off the earth during the Flood! They went through it, and entered into their new life *after* it."""
Postribs say we are raptured postrib.
Caught up post flood
Caught up after sodom is judged.

Nope...Jesus placed the rapture pre flood
Pre sodom burned.
Pretrib
Jesus DID NOT place lot or noah removed postjudgement.

 

[Absolutely]

Are pretribbers saying that Jacob's trouble is a Jewish wedding feast... now you're confusing this postribber of you stance...

Gentile bride is in heaven during the gt.
Jesus patterened the betrothal alongside jewish tradition

Mat 25 is a picture by Jesus of a jewish betrothed bride being taken by the groom.
The last supper shows Jesus re enacting the jewish betrothal.

 

[Absolutely]

You think we're going to drink wine in heaven? Where do you get that from?

I do accept a Rapture to heaven. But it's a U-Turn back to earth, where the Kingdom of Christ will be established. If we are to spend time in heaven after the coming of Christ, it will be in new glorified bodies--not as disembodied spirits.

The saints are presently in heaven in disembodied spirits. But I don't think they're drinking wine!

But they will.
Rev 19 the bride becomes the wife during the gt in heaven.
Jesus said "drink wine with you in heaven"

That means paul can not drink wine in his disembodied state.

You do realize you once again painted yourself into a corner?

 

[FreeGrace2]

"""Postrib. They entered into the restored earth *after* the Flood. There salvation was in entering into the new earth, and not just in being spared death through the Flood. They certainly weren't taken off the earth during the Flood! They went through it, and entered into their new life *after* it."""

Who believes this nonsense?

Postribs say we are raptured postrib.

2 Thess 2:1-3 says it.

Nope...Jesus placed the rapture pre flood

Show us the verse where Jesus mentioned a rapture.

How come you can't address the 10 plagues of Egypt? Where the Israelites STAYED in Egypt all the while God sent 10 plagues/judgments on Egypt.

And the Israelites were spared the 'hour of trial'.

 

[Absolutely]

""""The dead saints in 1 Thes 4 rise at the same moment the living saints are glorified, which is at the coming of Christ *after* the reign of Antichrist.

The harvest of Rev 14 is also the end of the age, as even Jesus described it. Matt 13:39."""



Re read it.
Mat 13 gathering is AFTER the mil at the gwtj.
They are thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 14 is DURING THE GT.

See mat 24. AFTER the gt Jesus comes on horses. No sitting on cloud fits at all.
2 different appearings
2 different purposes

Mat 13 39-42 is a THIRD DYNAMIC

Can not possibly be the same appearing.

 

[randyk]

But they will.
Rev 19 the bride becomes the wife during the gt in heaven.
Jesus said "drink wine with you in heaven"

That means paul can not drink wine in his disembodied state.

You do realize you once again painted yourself into a corner?

Where does Jesus saying we will drink wine with him connect to Rev 19? And where does it require that we drink wine *in heaven* and in "disembodied spirits?*