50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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In a nutshell, you think the term "the Kingdom of heaven" infers that we will drink wine in heaven? You should recognize that "kingdom of heaven" is synonymous with "kingdom of God." God is omnipresent--He is literally *everywhere.* So when you say you'll do something "in heaven," are you saying you'll do it "everywhere," or somewhere in the clouds?
In reality, to set our minds on things "above" is to recognize that God's existence transcends our earthly experience. If we talk about a place called "heaven," I'm not sure we even know what we're talking about.
The fact is, Jesus was talking about bringing God's existence into our earthly lives, in a better way than it is now. The Kingdom of heaven is coming to earth. We are not going up to heaven to remain there, drinking wine!
In reality, to set our minds on things "above" is to recognize that God's existence transcends our earthly experience. If we talk about a place called "heaven," I'm not sure we even know what we're talking about.
The fact is, Jesus was talking about bringing God's existence into our earthly lives, in a better way than it is now. The Kingdom of heaven is coming to earth. We are not going up to heaven to remain there, drinking wine!
No one is being "caught up / SNATCHED [TO the MEETING OF THE LORD in the AIR]" in this verse.
v.20:4a corresponds with Daniel 7:22 ("still-living saints" at the END of the Trib yrs; see also Dan12:12 and Dan7:[21,25]27, Dan2:35c, etc);
v.20:4b speaks only of those saints who will have been martyred/beheaded during the SECOND HALF of the trib yrs (i.e. the LAST of the saints to have died/been killed, before the earthly MK age commences, upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19 [Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"; and its parallel in Matt24:42-51, etc etc])
v.20:4a corresponds with Daniel 7:22 ("still-living saints" at the END of the Trib yrs; see also Dan12:12 and Dan7:[21,25]27, Dan2:35c, etc);
v.20:4b speaks only of those saints who will have been martyred/beheaded during the SECOND HALF of the trib yrs (i.e. the LAST of the saints to have died/been killed, before the earthly MK age commences, upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19 [Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"; and its parallel in Matt24:42-51, etc etc])
God's transcendent position, in comparison to our earthly position, is necessary in both the ontological and redemptive senses. His position is superior to ours. We see things as created humans. He sees things in a far more comprehensive way. We have experienced a kind of separation from God. He is holy and we are not, unless we are allowed some access to Him.
So "heaven" speaks of God's transcendent position above our earthly limitations. We go there in vision to see something bigger than ourselves. But we go there for only a limited time, in order to put what we learn there into use on earth, where we were created to be.
When Jesus spoke of God's Kingdom being in the "midst" of Israel, he was speaking of his own presence in their midst. He was not saying that the eschatological Kingdom had come yet. His message, clearly, was that it was "near," and not yet "here." In fact, Jesus considered it heresy to claim that the Kingdom had in any sense yet come. He utterly rejected the "false Christs" of his own generation, who claimed that God would save Israel from the Romans.
Heaven isn't our ultimate destination--the New Earth is. That's why God is creating a new heaven and a new earth. The earth is where God has placed man--not heaven. Heaven is a temporary dwelling for the departed saints until such time as the new earth is prepared for them.
So "heaven" speaks of God's transcendent position above our earthly limitations. We go there in vision to see something bigger than ourselves. But we go there for only a limited time, in order to put what we learn there into use on earth, where we were created to be.
When Jesus spoke of God's Kingdom being in the "midst" of Israel, he was speaking of his own presence in their midst. He was not saying that the eschatological Kingdom had come yet. His message, clearly, was that it was "near," and not yet "here." In fact, Jesus considered it heresy to claim that the Kingdom had in any sense yet come. He utterly rejected the "false Christs" of his own generation, who claimed that God would save Israel from the Romans.
Heaven isn't our ultimate destination--the New Earth is. That's why God is creating a new heaven and a new earth. The earth is where God has placed man--not heaven. Heaven is a temporary dwelling for the departed saints until such time as the new earth is prepared for them.
As I see it, Ephesians 2:6's "SEATED US WITH HIM [G4776 -one word]" word... ('in the heavenlies')... means something more than merely a "holding place" till the real thing takes place "on the earth"
https://biblehub.com/text/ephesians/2-6.htm
[note: the glory of God in two spheres / realms]
https://biblehub.com/text/ephesians/2-6.htm
[note: the glory of God in two spheres / realms]
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Correction 722 BC.
Second correction there are no lost 10 tribes. Anna was of the tribe of Asher. I could provide you with a couple of dozen Scriptures clearly proving beyond a doubt that there are no lost 10 tribes.
It is never stated but it is entirely likely that some of the 12 apostles were of these 10 tribes.
Sounds like you're stuck in one of those 10 lost tribes Churches. If so get out ASAP.....It's another kooky heresy.
Second correction there are no lost 10 tribes. Anna was of the tribe of Asher. I could provide you with a couple of dozen Scriptures clearly proving beyond a doubt that there are no lost 10 tribes.
It is never stated but it is entirely likely that some of the 12 apostles were of these 10 tribes.
Sounds like you're stuck in one of those 10 lost tribes Churches. If so get out ASAP.....It's another kooky heresy.
On the contrary my goal posts have not been moved in decades. I doubt very much they will ever be moved. They certainly haven't been moved 0.0001 inch due to any post-trib/mid-trib view posted on this thread that's for sure. In fact everything I read to the contrary has reinforced my position.
The pretrib rapture carries with it Biblical impeccability. No loopholes no loose ends......seamless perfection.
The pretrib rapture carries with it Biblical impeccability. No loopholes no loose ends......seamless perfection.
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As I see it, Ephesians 2:6's "SEATED US WITH HIM [G4776 -one word]" word... ('in the heavenlies')... means something more than merely a "holding place" till the real thing takes place "on the earth"
https://biblehub.com/text/ephesians/2-6.htm
[note: the glory of God in two spheres / realms]
https://biblehub.com/text/ephesians/2-6.htm
[note: the glory of God in two spheres / realms]
As I see it, Ephesians 2:6's "SEATED US WITH HIM [G4776 -one word]" word... ('in the heavenlies')... means something more than merely a "holding place" till the real thing takes place "on the earth"
https://biblehub.com/text/ephesians/2-6.htm
[note: the glory of God in two spheres / realms]
https://biblehub.com/text/ephesians/2-6.htm
[note: the glory of God in two spheres / realms]
--"Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom HAVING BEEN PREPARED for you FROM [apo (NOT "BEFORE / pro," as is said of OTHERS elsewhere)] the foundation of the world" (Matt25:31-34);
...is NOT the SAME THING as saying...
--"I GO TO PREPARE a *place* for you..." (said by Jesus just before His death on the Cross; John 14)
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In a nutshell, you think the term "the Kingdom of heaven" infers that we will drink wine in heaven? You should recognize that "kingdom of heaven" is synonymous with "kingdom of God." God is omnipresent--He is literally *everywhere.* So when you say you'll do something "in heaven," are you saying you'll do it "everywhere," or somewhere in the clouds?
In reality, to set our minds on things "above" is to recognize that God's existence transcends our earthly experience. If we talk about a place called "heaven," I'm not sure we even know what we're talking about.
The fact is, Jesus was talking about bringing God's existence into our earthly lives, in a better way than it is now. The Kingdom of heaven is coming to earth. We are not going up to heaven to remain there, drinking wine!
In reality, to set our minds on things "above" is to recognize that God's existence transcends our earthly experience. If we talk about a place called "heaven," I'm not sure we even know what we're talking about.
The fact is, Jesus was talking about bringing God's existence into our earthly lives, in a better way than it is now. The Kingdom of heaven is coming to earth. We are not going up to heaven to remain there, drinking wine!
it is your doctrine that would prohibit that...no matter how cleverly you might want to redo that fact
In a nutshell, you think the term "the Kingdom of heaven" infers that we will drink wine in heaven? You should recognize that "kingdom of heaven" is synonymous with "kingdom of God." God is omnipresent--He is literally *everywhere.* So when you say you'll do something "in heaven," are you saying you'll do it "everywhere," or somewhere in the clouds?
In reality, to set our minds on things "above" is to recognize that God's existence transcends our earthly experience. If we talk about a place called "heaven," I'm not sure we even know what we're talking about.
The fact is, Jesus was talking about bringing God's existence into our earthly lives, in a better way than it is now. The Kingdom of heaven is coming to earth. We are not going up to heaven to remain there, drinking wine!
In reality, to set our minds on things "above" is to recognize that God's existence transcends our earthly experience. If we talk about a place called "heaven," I'm not sure we even know what we're talking about.
The fact is, Jesus was talking about bringing God's existence into our earthly lives, in a better way than it is now. The Kingdom of heaven is coming to earth. We are not going up to heaven to remain there, drinking wine!
you reframe it
repeat
No, I just understand something different from those words than you do! Nothing about "cleverly" trying to "keep my doctrine!" That's kind of insulting rhetoric. I honestly believe what I believe, and I don't have any "skin in the game," as they say. I haven't written any books, and I've changed my mind on many matters, given enough information.
By having a place in heaven I understand that Christ himself is in heaven. When we have a place in heaven, what that means is that we have a place reserved for us in Christ, who is in heaven. He is the guarantee that we can have eternal life forever on this earth!
To have something guaranteed in heaven is to have God, who is in heaven, place His seal of approval on it. To be guaranteed something in heaven is to have God guarantee it.
In other words, I don't believe we're going to heaven for any length of time, except if we die. If we die we go to heaven to be with God until such time as we receive new immortal bodies. Then at the proper time we shall land on earth. The New Jerusalem will come down from heaven.
But until we actually receive new bodies, at the 2nd Coming, we will not drink wine! If you don't have a body, if you don't have a mouth and stomach, you don't drink wine!
By having a place in heaven I understand that Christ himself is in heaven. When we have a place in heaven, what that means is that we have a place reserved for us in Christ, who is in heaven. He is the guarantee that we can have eternal life forever on this earth!
To have something guaranteed in heaven is to have God, who is in heaven, place His seal of approval on it. To be guaranteed something in heaven is to have God guarantee it.
In other words, I don't believe we're going to heaven for any length of time, except if we die. If we die we go to heaven to be with God until such time as we receive new immortal bodies. Then at the proper time we shall land on earth. The New Jerusalem will come down from heaven.
But until we actually receive new bodies, at the 2nd Coming, we will not drink wine!
If you don't have a body, if you don't have a mouth and stomach, you don't drink wine! FreeGrace2 said:
Rom 11-
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,
26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
OK, here's the verse. Where and what is this "gap" that you speak of?
Thanks.
I know that Israel split into 2 nations, the "northern kingdom" and "southern kingdom". But where and what is the gap?
Rom 11-
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,
26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
OK, here's the verse. Where and what is this "gap" that you speak of?
Thanks.
I know that Israel split into 2 nations, the "northern kingdom" and "southern kingdom". But where and what is the gap?