50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[Absolutely]

I needed to post the second half of my responded to Ahwatukee due to post lengths.


I've explained this many times. v.3 says NOTHING about taking raptured/resurrected believers to heaven. It says the same thing as 1 Thess 4:17. Once resurrected/raptured, all believers will be with the Lord forever. Nothing about going back to heaven.


No one argues that there will be a rapture of living believers. The Bible is clear WHEN that will occur, which is AFTER the Trib.


They are all the same event. 2 Thess 2:1-3 proves it.

Your claim above is grammatically false! "That day" would have to refer back to the last event that was mentioned, which would be "The Day of the Lord" in verse 2 and not our being gathered to Him.

It "would have to"? Says you. The words "that day" is a clear reference to a single day, not a long period of time. And even the DotL begins on a single day.

So you are just misunderstanding the passage.


That's funny, said the guy who jumps to a conclusion about Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven when there are NO VERSES that say that.


You err to claim that "that day" refers to a 7 year period. Even a 7 year period BEGINS on a single day.

It's just amazing the lengths some will go to try to keep their opinions alive. "that day" refers to the very day that Jesus comes back. And "that day" WILL NOT OCCUR UNTIL the rebellion, which is the Trib occurs and the a/c is revealed.


So what? The DotL begins when Christ returns at the Second Advent. He comes as King of kings, Lord of lords. You'd better believe it will be the day of the Lord when He comes. But there is NOTHING in the Trib that can be viewed as the DotL. He's not even on earth during the Trib. It is when He returns that HIS DAY begins. And will continue on into eternity, as King of kings and Lord of lords.

Your claim above is why you err! The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him, is not the same as 'the day of the Lord.' For the day of the Lord follows the gathering of the church.[/QUOTE]
The error is yours. All that is included in the DotL BEGINS when Christ returns as King and Lord. You cannot prove otherwise.


Prove it.

His DAY begins when He returns and rules. That's what Paul was writing about.[/QUOTE]
"""No one argues that there will be a rapture of living believers. The Bible is clear WHEN that will occur, which is AFTER the Trib."""

Oh good. We have a taker.
Please do post all those verses.

In 30 years of debating postribbers they have never offered one.

I will wait.

 

[Absolutely]

Ok so...

The pretrib position hinges on the tribulation not beginning until the man of sin is reveal and the DOTL includes the tribulation of the saints, except those raptured before tribulation, who commence to enjoy tea and crumpets in their own private party, of course.

and

The postrib position stands that the DOTL does not begin until the man of sin is revealed (both agree on this point, yaye!) and excludes the tribulation, of which all must partake in together with those that went before them, as also with the reception afterwards.

better yet try to reconcile the bride / groom dimension as well as the church in heaven during the trib, plus all the pretrib rapture verses, and then reconcile a gathering in rev 14 During the trib.....
And that is only part of the absolute certainty of a pretrib rapture.
It is overwhelming proof of only one viable and plausable position.....a pretrib rapture as Jesus depicted over and over.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[re: pre-trib position] ...except those raptured before tribulation, who commence to enjoy tea and crumpets in their own private party, of course.

No.

The "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" is located on the earth, commences upon His "RETURN" to the earth, and IS the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (at least its inauguration).

IOW, that is NOT the "purpose" for "our Rapture".






[Abs will disagree vehemently, of course,... but he has unusual "pre-trib" beliefs because he holds to the "partial-rapture theory" and that "multiple raptures" will occur--that is not the mainstream "pre-trib" viewpoint, however]

 

[Absolutely]

You still don't understand:

-Daniels 70 weeks prophecy
-The mystery of the Church
-The fullness of the Gentiles
-the DOTL
-The marriage symbolism of the last supper
-The specific nature and identity of the Bride of Christ, and Jesus usage of marriage symbolism

Many other people are confused about Luke 21 and 70 AD, which makes a train wreck out of their eschatology.

A full and complete understanding of these topics and presto you've got a pre-trib rapture, earthly millennial kingdom, reconstitution of Israel, all biblical covenants and prophecies are completely fulfilled. And maximum glory to God and the Lamb.

However if you DO NOT understand these topics.......you've got hapless posters running around in circles like a dog chasing its tail. For hundreds of pages.

The bride/groom dimension as well as the impossibility of " one coming".....are 2 final and decisive nails in the postrib rapture coffin.
(Since the very words of Jesus are not enough for them)

We have destroyed any hope of doctrine of a church going through the gt.

 

[Absolutely]

No.

The "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" is located on the earth, commences upon His "RETURN" to the earth, and IS the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (at least its inauguration).

IOW, that is NOT the "purpose" for "our Rapture".






[Abs will disagree vehemently, of course,... but he has unusual "pre-trib" beliefs because he holds to the "partial-rapture theory" and "multiple raptures"--that is not the mainstream "pre-trib" viewpoint, however]

....which points you have yet to address.
I can easily defend my position.

 

[cv5]

Ok so...

The pretrib position hinges on the tribulation not beginning until the man of sin is reveal and the DOTL includes the tribulation of the saints, except those raptured before tribulation, who commence to enjoy tea and crumpets in their own private party, of course.

and

The postrib position stands that the DOTL does not begin until the man of sin is revealed (both agree on this point, yaye!) and excludes the tribulation, of which all must partake in together with those that went before them, as also with the reception afterwards.

Christians already sleeping don't go through the tribulation. Neither do living Christians. Both groups receive resurrection bodies before the tribulation happens. And exit the vicinity of the earth while the wrath of the Lamb ensues.

 

[Absolutely]

Christians already sleeping don't go through the tribulation. Neither do living Christians. Both groups receive resurrection bodies before the tribulation happens. And exit the vicinity of the earth while the wrath of the Lamb ensues.

Even the dead in christ has a partial church gathering / left behind.

It says dead " in christ".
....not pew sitters.

Off topic and rambling on.... Just thinking outloud

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Regardless of how one understands the DofL in v.2, it begins on a singular day, regardless of how long it lasts.

From v.2, I understand that the DotL begins when Christ returns, on "that day".

So you're thinking that the false claim that Paul is warning about in v.2, that its contents are (in effect saying): "that Christ Himself is already here / is already present [perfect indicative ('Action completed at a specific point of time in Past'...)]" ??

And Paul had to write them a letter and say "Not." [v.3] ??




[and even tho Paul'd ALREADY said that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" the manner of its ARRIVAL, 1Th5:2-3 ??]

 

[Absolutely]

.....still waiting for a postrib rapture verse.

I better give it some time.


A lot of time.

Patience.

Patience is the key

 

[Absolutely]

Lol

 

[Absolutely]

.....still waiting for a postrib rapture verse.

I better give it some time.


A lot of time.

Patience.

Patience is the key

I know sooner or later they will actually come up with one.

Oh wait.

I have my doubts.

Maybe a cash reward?
That might make em search.

 

[Absolutely]

So you're thinking that the false claim that Paul is warning about in v.2, that its contents are (in effect saying): "that Christ Himself is already here / is already present [perfect indicative ('Action completed at a specific point of time in Past'...)]" ??

And Paul had to write them a letter and say "Not." [v.3] ??




[and even tho Paul'd ALREADY said that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" the manner of its ARRIVAL, 1Th5:2-3 ??]

Oooooooo
Bad to the bone dwm.
You left him speechless.

 

[Absolutely]

The bride/groom dimension as well as the impossibility of " one coming".....are 2 final and decisive nails in the postrib rapture coffin.
(Since the very words of Jesus are not enough for them)

We have destroyed any hope of doctrine of a church going through the gt.

The words of Jesus are rendered "useless" in the postrib rapture doctrine.

The red flag is.....that there is no red flag

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

That means the Trib begins 3.5 years BEFORE the a/c appears.

NO.

his "whose COMING [/ ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia]" 2:9a[8a] is at the START of the "7 yrs" (well-before his "who SITTETH" 2:4 point in time!)


[corresponding with other "coming" verses ABOUT HIM/ac/man of sin]

 

[cv5]

So you're thinking that the false claim that Paul is warning about in v.2, that its contents are (in effect saying): "that Christ Himself is already here / is already present [perfect indicative ('Action completed at a specific point of time in Past'...)]" ??

And Paul had to write them a letter and say "Not." [v.3] ??




[and even tho Paul'd ALREADY said that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" the manner of its ARRIVAL, 1Th5:2-3 ??]

Where is that facepalm emoji when you need it lol. Whew.

 

[Mem]

better yet try to reconcile the bride / groom dimension as well as the church in heaven during the trib, plus all the pretrib rapture verses, and then reconcile a gathering in rev 14 During the trib.....
And that is only part of the absolute certainty of a pretrib rapture.
It is overwhelming proof of only one viable and plausable position.....a pretrib rapture as Jesus depicted over and over.

I can't find any pretrib rapture verses so how can I find the only part of the absolute certainty of a pretrib rapture. I'd think if the proof was overwhelming, then I'd be overwhelmed with proof... but being overwhelming with suggestions of proof is only really being overwhelmed with suggestions. I could suggest there is a gold the hill but you wouldn't give me your life savings for even an acre unless you actually saw gold that came out of that hill.

 

[Mem]

No.

The "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" is located on the earth, commences upon His "RETURN" to the earth, and IS the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (at least its inauguration).

IOW, that is NOT the "purpose" for "our Rapture".






[Abs will disagree vehemently, of course,... but he has unusual "pre-trib" beliefs because he holds to the "partial-rapture theory" and that "multiple raptures" will occur--that is not the mainstream "pre-trib" viewpoint, however]

Aack! It hard enough trying to understand the "pre-trib" view point, now I have to sort of the branches?!

 

[Mem]

Christians already sleeping don't go through the tribulation. Neither do living Christians. Both groups receive resurrection bodies before the tribulation happens. And exit the vicinity of the earth while the wrath of the Lamb ensues.

I really don't get why we'd need to exit the vicinity of God's wrath when it is not directed toward us in the first place. I mean, if two can be side by side, in the same field, same bed... and be selectively 'raptured,' 'taken,' or 'left'...as pertaining to the better outcome, then why wouldn't this be the case in the context of wrath?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Where is that facepalm emoji when you need it lol. Whew.

If Paul hadn't already stated that they "KNOW PERFECTLY" the manner of its ARRIVAL, 1Th5:2-3 (re: its being like... the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman... which BoBPs [plural] Jesus had already spoken about in His Olivet Discourse--and referring to a time BEFORE and LEADING UP TO His "return" to the earth), then I could see the person's point as being at least a tiny bit reasonable (if they ignore all other passages re: "the DOTL")... but he did already say that in his first letter.



[p.s. "the day of the Lord" does not require Jesus' Personal / Physical presence ON THE EARTH in order to commence unfolding upon the earth. ]

 

[Ahwatukee]

All this proves that "a rapture" is very much biblical. The only thing left to debate is when it occurs. It happens at the second coming.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.

It's that simple.

Everywhere you put in parenthesis (second coming reference) is by your own doing and not according to scripture. The 1 Thess.4:16-17 is in reference to the gathering of the church and not the Lord's return to end the age. You are just misapplying scripture and then saying, Viola!

It's not that simple! As I continue to point out to you guys, by believing that the gathering of the church does not take place until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, you would be putting the living church through the entire tribulation/wrath of God, which must take place before the Lord can return to the earth and which we are not appointed to go through.

==============================================================
"Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
===========================================================================

And for those of you who continue to offer up the false apologetic saying that the scriptures above are in reference to condemnation in the lake of fire, God's wrath must take place first on the earth. But in any case, those in Christ are not appointed to suffer any og God's wrath at all, because Jesus already did. This is just another primary scriptural truth that you ignore.

For some reason you and others cling to certain scriptures but ignore others. You also have not understood that the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth are two separate events. You've lumped them together to support the belief that you have adopted.

By your claim, you are ignoring the fact that the Lord already satisfied God's wrath on behalf of every believer, when you should be including it in your conclusion. In addition, you are not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. With just the 4th seal and 6th trumpet (a fourth and a third), over half of the earths population will be killed within the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. And that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1, 2 & 3, nor from the bowl judgments. This is supported by when the Lord said, "If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive." By the time the Lord returns to the earth, there will probably be less than 10% of the population left. And you guys think that the Lord is going send His church through that? So much for the blessed hope and comforting each other with those words.

In addition, I have shown you the scriptures which show the church/bride attending the wedding of the Lamb which takes place in heaven. I have also shown you the bride/church following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses as the Lord descends to the battle of Armageddon. For in order to attend the wedding in heaven and follow the Lord out of heaven, you would have to already be in heaven. Now that's simple!

I'm trying to snap you out of the books and YouTube videos that you have been reading and watching and get you to pay attention to these scriptures that I have listed, instead of just excluding them. In order to come to a right conclusion on end-time events, you need to bring in all of the scriptures and not just some.

Do something different and consider them!