50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

Thewatchman · Jun 30, 2021

ewq1938 said:

Strongs #724 harpage from 726 pillage(properly abstract) extortion, ravening,spoiling. #725 harpagmos from 726 plunder (properly contracted) robbery. # 726 harpazo from #138 to seize (in various applications) catch (away, up) pluck, pull, take (by force) #727 harpax from 726 rapacious extortion, ravening.

1 Thessalonians: “caught up” | Right Division
right-division.com › 1-thessalonians-caught-up
May 02, 2020 · The Greek word harpazo, translated “caught up,” means to take away by force, as when a wild beast seizes and carries off its prey, or as when one snatches a thing from another. We might also add that the English phrase “caught up” may imply the same meaning as the Greek term “harpazo” or unlike Greek, apart from scripture, in secular use have even more meanings.
Strong's Greek: 726. ἁρπάζω (harpazó) -- to seize, catch up ...
biblehub.com › greek › 726
to seize, catch up, snatch away. NASB Translation. carry off (1), caught (4), snatch (2), snatched...away (1), snatches (1), snatches away (1), snatching (1), take...away...by force (1), take...by force (2). Thayer's Greek Lexicon. STRONGS NT 726: ἁρπάζω.
Search Tools | The Institute for Creation Research
www.icr.org › bible › 1Thessalonians
1 Thessalonians 4:17. 4:17 caught up. “Caught up” means “raptured” (Greek harpazo; the same word is used in II Corinthians 12:2,4; Acts 8:39 and Revelation 12:5). The English word “rapture” comes from the Latin raptus, meaning “seized” or “carried away.”.
1 Thessalonians 4:17, REV Bible and Commentary
www.revisedenglishversion.com › 1-Thessalonians
The Greek word translated “ suddenly caught up” is harpazō (#726 ἁρπάζω) and it means to seize, snatch, carry off by force, to eagerly seize and claim for one’s self. It is implied in the meaning of the word harpazō that the thing taken is taken suddenly or quickly, thus the REV has the word “suddenly” to pick up that emphasis.

ewq1938 · Jun 30, 2021

All this proves that "a rapture" is very much biblical. The only thing left to debate is when it occurs. It happens at the second coming.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.

It's that simple.

Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the Great Tribulation.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (*another way to speak of the Rapture) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

*(also see 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 for the same language regarding the Rapture)

Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages. In both we have saved Christians being moved from one place to another and in both that happens after the tribulation has ended and when the second coming has commenced.

A rapture before the second coming and before the resurrection is scripturally impossible and the second coming cannot happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat 24:29-30.

Let's back up slightly to establish context:

Paul is clear the rapture happens after the resurrection and the resurrection happens after the second coming. There is no pre-trib rapture in scripture.

It never fails to amaze me that a thread about the Rapture does not include the actual verses that speak of the Rapture and when it happens.

Rapture is an English word that comes from a Greek word which is Harpazo. Here is the Harpazo/Rapture and when it happens:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (Harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is the rapture and it happens after the second coming of Christ which only happens once the great tribulation has ended. The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul in verse 17.

So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30

So, the second coming happens and then the resurrection and then the rapture, all after the trib has ended.

Thewatchman said:

VCO · Jul 1, 2021

ewq1938 said:

All this proves that "a rapture" is very much biblical. The only thing left to debate is when it occurs. It happens at the second coming.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.

It's that simple.

Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the Great Tribulation.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (*another way to speak of the Rapture) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

*(also see 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 for the same language regarding the Rapture)

Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages. In both we have saved Christians being moved from one place to another and in both that happens after the tribulation has ended and when the second coming has commenced.

A rapture before the second coming and before the resurrection is scripturally impossible and the second coming cannot happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat 24:29-30.

Let's back up slightly to establish context:

Paul is clear the rapture happens after the resurrection and the resurrection happens after the second coming. There is no pre-trib rapture in scripture.

It never fails to amaze me that a thread about the Rapture does not include the actual verses that speak of the Rapture and when it happens.

Rapture is an English word that comes from a Greek word which is Harpazo. Here is the Harpazo/Rapture and when it happens:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (Harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is the rapture and it happens after the second coming of Christ which only happens once the great tribulation has ended. The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul in verse 17.

So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30

So, the second coming happens and then the resurrection and then the rapture, all after the trib has ended.

NO, the shout of the Archangel comes 7 years before the Second Coming.

The reason we know that is only the FATHER has the authority to say to the Son, you have finished building a new dwelling place, go get your Bride. So no one will know when that will be, because it is before. We know when the Mid-Trib will be, and Post tribe is 3.5 years later.

VCO · Jul 1, 2021

ewq1938 said:

All this proves that "a rapture" is very much biblical. The only thing left to debate is when it occurs. It happens at the second coming.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.

It's that simple.

Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the Great Tribulation.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (*another way to speak of the Rapture) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

*(also see 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 for the same language regarding the Rapture)

Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages. In both we have saved Christians being moved from one place to another and in both that happens after the tribulation has ended and when the second coming has commenced.

A rapture before the second coming and before the resurrection is scripturally impossible and the second coming cannot happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat 24:29-30.

Let's back up slightly to establish context:

Paul is clear the rapture happens after the resurrection and the resurrection happens after the second coming. There is no pre-trib rapture in scripture.

It never fails to amaze me that a thread about the Rapture does not include the actual verses that speak of the Rapture and when it happens.

Rapture is an English word that comes from a Greek word which is Harpazo. Here is the Harpazo/Rapture and when it happens:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (Harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is the rapture and it happens after the second coming of Christ which only happens once the great tribulation has ended. The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul in verse 17.

So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30

So, the second coming happens and then the resurrection and then the rapture, all after the trib has ended.

You need to WAKE UP. REREAD VERSE 14.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him {From Heaven, where we have been Raptured to attend the Wedding of the LAMB, 7 years EARLIER.}

OldSage · Jul 1, 2021

Mem said:

Hi Mem,

Thank you for taking the time to read my posts. I very much appreciate your effort, and I hope my replies are worth it for you.

Well your first question I 100% agree with. I think the theologies driving certain scenarios are frankly mad, and in fact very destructive to the peace and prosperity of both Israel and the World, and obviously Israel's return is one designated as a return featuring peace and prosperity. This is obviously a much bigger subject for another hour. [It's a huge other subject].

-----------------------------------------------

On the 2nd question, let's go though it as briefly as possible.

Firstly, what is sin? Paul tells us in Romans 5

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Adam sinned and then bequeathed to mankind mortality. That was his punishment, which we all bear. But obviously we didn't all sin like Adam, so why are we all considered sinful? 'for that all have sinned': epi hos pas hartano = As a result of which all have sinned.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, as a result of which all have sinned:

Paul is explaining that we are all sinful because we are mortal. Why so? Because sin really means at core something displeasing to God, (think of Cain and Abel's sacrifices), and mortal human beings are extremely displeasing to God. God created men and women to be eternal, like him, so he could have an eternal relationship with us. We were created for the Lord's pleasure and joy, so he could share creation and everything else with us. Once we became mortal, we were useless to him. Think of your pet dog or cat; they bring you so much happiness but they only last a fragment of your life. That really is awful. Every 12-15 years in general we are sobbing away and have to get a new beloved friend. And the difference between 75 years and eternity is obviously, well, by orders of magnitude greater. Okay, so hopefully you see that impermanence itself is sinful in God's eyes.

The idea of the Second Coming comes from Hebrews 9. [The NIV and NRSV differ from the KJV, and it is very serious departure.]

We read (KJV):

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

So Paul is saying:

Jesus was crucified and died. He was then resurrected and he then ascended to the heavenly throne of God the Father. His blood redeemed all mankind. So he died once, appeared before the Father, was judged perfect and so he was given eternal life for himself and all who believe in him. After he was crowned in heaven by the Father, he returned to earth in his eternal body.
This was the first time that he appeared without sin. Prior to this as an Adamic human being he had appeared in the likeness of sinful flesh (Romans 8:3), but now following his death and ascension, he has conquered death and he appears in a perfect transfigured body. The first time he appears in his transfigured body is to the Church for 40 days.

Paul tells us he will appear (optanomai - make himself seen) a second time:

1) without sin, {that is in his perfect transfigured body}
&
2) to those looking for him.

So we understand as the rapture of the church.

But Paul never says that Jesus will make 'a second coming'. That is a different proposition entirely.
So if we can understand that the optanomai [appearance] is a different thing to the erchomai/parousia [coming]
then we can understand that Jesus came back in AD70 without violating what Paul says in Hebrews.

And then we can start to make sense of scriptures such as this:

Matthew 16: 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Ok, there is a lot more to say, but I am super busy. I am away for a few days. I'll be back though.

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 1, 2021

2 Peter 1 ["eyewitnesses of His majesty"... at this setting: before Jesus' death on the Cross] -

"Eyewitnesses of His Majesty

"16 For we did not follow cleverly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming [/parousian] of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to Him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” 18 And we ourselves heard this voice from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain."

[Matt16 - "27 For the Son of Man will come in His Father’s glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done. 28 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.” And 17:9 - "Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead."]

Absolutely · Jul 1, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

Freegrace2,

I wish you could understand that this is where your error is:

V.1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him

V.2 Asserting that the day of the Lord has already come

These are two closely linked yet separate events with the Day of the Lord following our being gathered to Him.

The "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, is indeed referring to the gathering of the church (rapture).

In opposition, The Day of the Lord, is the time of God's wrath which follows the gathering of the church.

Always keep in mind, that before the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, God's wrath must come first. And since believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then we must be gathered prior to said wrath. Don't just bring in some scriptures and leave others out.

The coming of our Lord to gather His church takes place first, with the Day of the Lord to follow which is when the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place, as well as the beasts reign. After the 7th bowl judgment has been poured out, then the Lord will return to the earth to end the age and the church will be following Him out of heaven riding on white horses. - Rev.19:6-8, 14

The gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, are two separate events which are at least seven years apart.

Scriptures regarding the Gathering of the church:
"In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am." John 14:2-3.

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. " - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. - 1 Corinthians 15:51-53

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him" - 2 Thessalonians 2:1

Scriptures regarding the Second Coming: (Jesus returns to the earth to end the age)
"Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth c will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." - Matthew 24:30-31

"Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen." - Revelation 1:7

Jesus returning to the earth to end the age - Revelation 19:11-21

It is paramount in discerning which scriptures go with the correct event. I have placed the scriptures pertaining to their relevant event above.

Your claim above is grammatically false! "That day" would have to refer back to the last event that was mentioned, which would be "The Day of the Lord" in verse 2 and not our being gathered to Him. You just jumped to that conclusion. To prove my point, here is the entire verse:

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for that day (Day of the Lord) will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed "

The Day of the Lord is not just restricted to the the actual day that the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, but is the time period which follows the gathering of the church and which includes God's wrath in its entirety during that entire seven years. Even the when the earth is destroyed and everything in it melting with a fervent heat it is also referred to as the day of the Lord.

Your claim above is why you err! The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him, is not the same as 'the day of the Lord.' For the day of the Lord follows the gathering of the church.

I urge you to do a study on 'The Day of the Lord" so that you will understand that it is the time of God's wrath and not the gathering of the church.

They have to get more and more "clever" ( italics because they are not) to reconcile the notion in their minds that the rapture and the 2nd coming on white horses are the same exact event.

They get owned, stand in their doctrine's ashes of ruin, and with a supernatural poker face, pretend they have standing.

It is getting more and more comical.

Absolutely · Jul 1, 2021

OldSage said:

Hi Mem,

Thank you for taking the time to read my posts. I very much appreciate your effort, and I hope my replies are worth it for you.

Well your first question I 100% agree with. I think the theologies driving certain scenarios are frankly mad, and in fact very destructive to the peace and prosperity of both Israel and the World, and obviously Israel's return is one designated as a return featuring peace and prosperity. This is obviously a much bigger subject for another hour. [It's a huge other subject].

-----------------------------------------------

On the 2nd question, let's go though it as briefly as possible.

Firstly, what is sin? Paul tells us in Romans 5

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Adam sinned and then bequeathed to mankind mortality. That was his punishment, which we all bear. But obviously we didn't all sin like Adam, so why are we all considered sinful? 'for that all have sinned': epi hos pas hartano = As a result of which all have sinned.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, as a result of which all have sinned:

Paul is explaining that we are all sinful because we are mortal. Why so? Because sin really means at core something displeasing to God, (think of Cain and Abel's sacrifices), and mortal human beings are extremely displeasing to God. God created men and women to be eternal, like him, so he could have an eternal relationship with us. We were created for the Lord's pleasure and joy, so he could share creation and everything else with us. Once we became mortal, we were useless to him. Think of your pet dog or cat; they bring you so much happiness but they only last a fragment of your life. That really is awful. Every 12-15 years in general we are sobbing away and have to get a new beloved friend. And the difference between 75 years and eternity is obviously, well, by orders of magnitude greater. Okay, so hopefully you see that impermanence itself is sinful in God's eyes.

The idea of the Second Coming comes from Hebrews 9. [The NIV and NRSV differ from the KJV, and it is very serious departure.]

We read (KJV):

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

So Paul is saying:

Jesus was crucified and died. He was then resurrected and he then ascended to the heavenly throne of God the Father. His blood redeemed all mankind. So he died once, appeared before the Father, was judged perfect and so he was given eternal life for himself and all who believe in him. After he was crowned in heaven by the Father, he returned to earth in his eternal body.
This was the first time that he appeared without sin. Prior to this as an Adamic human being he had appeared in the likeness of sinful flesh (Romans 8:3), but now following his death and ascension, he has conquered death and he appears in a perfect transfigured body. The first time he appears in his transfigured body is to the Church for 40 days.

Paul tells us he will appear (optanomai - make himself seen) a second time:

1) without sin, {that is in his perfect transfigured body}
&
2) to those looking for him.

So we understand as the rapture of the church.

But Paul never says that Jesus will make 'a second coming'. That is a different proposition entirely.
So if we can understand that the optanomai [appearance] is a different thing to the erchomai/parousia [coming]
then we can understand that Jesus came back in AD70 without violating what Paul says in Hebrews.

And then we can start to make sense of scriptures such as this:

Matthew 16: 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Ok, there is a lot more to say, but I am super busy. I am away for a few days. I'll be back though.

"""optanomai [appearance] is a different thing to the erchomai/parousia [coming]
then we can understand that Jesus came back in AD70 without violating what Paul says in Hebrews.
And then we can start to make sense of scriptures such as this:Matthew 16: 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom"""

Not taught in the bible.

Post a link or group that believes this.

If you are " figuring out" the bible mentally, you will miss it regularly.
The bible is a spirit book.

Jesus said to the disciples " not a hair of your head will be harmed"

They all, but one, were violently and horrifically martyred.

Again you will NOT "figure out" end times mentally.

We are also told EXACTLY WHO the AC is. And even given his name.....yet no one has ever "figured out" who he is.

The appearance of Jesus in the clouds, the rapture, is the catching away of the bride...NOTHING ELSE
...NO OTHER MISSION/PURPOSE.

If that is not understood.....the starting place and purposes of God will be bypassed.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 1, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

The error is on your part. You admit that the "coming" involves the rapture. But you want to change the subject regarding the next 2 verses.

It sure is.

You are totally misreading the passage.

Here's the passage:
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

So, v.1 mentions Christ's coming and the rapture.

v.2 mentions NOTHING about God's wrath, which you erroneously call "the Day of the Lord". The DotL begins when Christ returns after the Trib. Where in Scripture do you find support for the idea that the DotL begins with the start of the Trib?

Even the passage doesn't say the Trib follows the rapture. In FACT, it plainly says the rapture FOLLOWS the Trib.

The evidence is found in v.3. I believe "that day" refers to v.1 and the "coming of the Lord", while you believe it refers to a pretrib rapture. Well, what does v.3 say?

It says "that day" WILL NOT COME UNTIL the rebellion occurs and man of lawlessness is revealed". This proves beyond doubt that the trib (rebellion) occurs FIRST and THEN "that day" occurs.

It is very clear about WHEN the "coming" and rapture" occurs and WHEN the Trib occurs.

Trib first and then the "coming" and "rapture".

I cannot figure out how you are making such a mistake. The sequence in these 3 verses are unmistakable.

This is EXACTLY what the 3 verses are saying!!

This is just your own opinion about things.

God perfectly kept the Jews safe during His wrath on Egypt, and the 10 plagues have parallels to the Trib. God DID NOT REMOVE Israel from Egypt. He kep them SAFE IN Egypt.

But pretribbers just can't seem to grasp or accept it. Kinda like God is unable to do that again.

OK, tell me what verses I have 'left out'. Or do you prefer "left behind"? lol

Again, "that day" refers to the coming of the Lord from v.1 which will occur on a single day. And v.3 tells us clearly that "that day" WON'T OCCUR until the rebellion, which is the Trib occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed.

Are you aware that the beast aka a/c doesn't appear on scene until the LAST HALF of the Trib? he reigns for 3.5 years per Rev 13:5 - The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months.

That means the Trib begins 3.5 years BEFORE the a/c appears.

Yes, and are GATHERED TOGETHER with all the living believers and ALL of them will receive immortal glorified bodies at that time.

The gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, are two separate events which are at least seven years apart.[/QUOTE]
The major problem with pretrib rapture is that NO verses show Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. None.

Also, pretribbers are FORCED to split the resurrection of believers into CHUNKS or multiple events. However, the Bible treats the resurrection of believers to be a single event.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. This is worded to indicate a single event, not multiple events.

John 5-
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Note in Acts 24 the mention of "resurrection" is in the singular; one for the righteous (saved) and one for the wicked (unsaved).

FreeGrace2 · Jul 1, 2021

I needed to post the second half of my responded to Ahwatukee due to post lengths.

I've explained this many times. v.3 says NOTHING about taking raptured/resurrected believers to heaven. It says the same thing as 1 Thess 4:17. Once resurrected/raptured, all believers will be with the Lord forever. Nothing about going back to heaven.

No one argues that there will be a rapture of living believers. The Bible is clear WHEN that will occur, which is AFTER the Trib.

They are all the same event. 2 Thess 2:1-3 proves it.

Your claim above is grammatically false! "That day" would have to refer back to the last event that was mentioned, which would be "The Day of the Lord" in verse 2 and not our being gathered to Him.[/QUOTE]
It "would have to"? Says you. The words "that day" is a clear reference to a single day, not a long period of time. And even the DotL begins on a single day.

So you are just misunderstanding the passage.

That's funny, said the guy who jumps to a conclusion about Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven when there are NO VERSES that say that.

You err to claim that "that day" refers to a 7 year period. Even a 7 year period BEGINS on a single day.

It's just amazing the lengths some will go to try to keep their opinions alive. "that day" refers to the very day that Jesus comes back. And "that day" WILL NOT OCCUR UNTIL the rebellion, which is the Trib occurs and the a/c is revealed.

So what? The DotL begins when Christ returns at the Second Advent. He comes as King of kings, Lord of lords. You'd better believe it will be the day of the Lord when He comes. But there is NOTHING in the Trib that can be viewed as the DotL. He's not even on earth during the Trib. It is when He returns that HIS DAY begins. And will continue on into eternity, as King of kings and Lord of lords.

Your claim above is why you err! The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him, is not the same as 'the day of the Lord.' For the day of the Lord follows the gathering of the church.[/QUOTE]
The error is yours. All that is included in the DotL BEGINS when Christ returns as King and Lord. You cannot prove otherwise.

Prove it.

His DAY begins when He returns and rules. That's what Paul was writing about.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 1, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

How about v.3? "that day" refers to v.1 and "the coming of our Lord". He comes on a specific singular day.

By "passage" I take that as v.1-3. So yes. v.3 refers back to v.1.

Regardless of how one understands the DofL in v.2, it begins on a singular day, regardless of how long it lasts.

From v.2, I understand that the DotL begins when Christ returns, on "that day".

Absolutely · Jul 1, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

That should have said "you should not be teaching."

"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am." - John 14:1-3

That part is correct. Jesus was speaking about returning to the Father after He ascended where He would prepare places for us in the Father's house. So you got that part right.

The above is the part that is not correct! I think that you need to take your own advice and read it even more carefully! Everything you put in parenthesis is completely assumed on your part and is false. You left out the fact that Jesus does not come back each time a person dies to take their spirit back to the Father's house.

Let's put your claim to the test. You say that the Lord was going to prepare a place for us referring to each believer when they would all die physically and go to to heaven and so the Lord went to the Father's house to prepare a place for our spirits after we die. So, that right there is not supported by the scripture. It says that He is going to the Father's house to prepare a place for us and that He would be coming back to take us to where He is, which is speaking about a group event and not an individual event.

When a believer dies the Lord does not repeatedly come back to get each one of us to take us back to the Father's house one by one. But He is going to come and get us as a group. Therefore, John 14:1-3 is not speaking about when we die, but is speaking to the living church at the time of the resurrection. At that time all of the dead from the onset of the church till that time will be resurrected all at once. Immediately after that, the living will be transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with those who have just resurrected. At this point the entire church will be gathered in the air in one place and one time, where the Lord will then take us back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.

It's all about dead being resurrected and the living being changed immortal and glorified. Those spirits who have died up until this point, are waiting for the resurrection from heaven side, while we who are still alive are waiting for the Lord's appearing here on earth, both looking forward to the immortal and glorification of our bodies.

If by "Second Advent" you mean when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, that can't be! As told you and others so many times, the Lord does not return to the earth to end the age until after God's wrath has been completed. That said, scripture states that believers within the church are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that because Jesus already did, satisfying it completely. This is other important information that you leave out of your conclusion. Everyone who believes that the Lord is going to put His church through His wrath, is not truly believing that He took upon himself God's wrath on behalf of every believer.

"But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body. - Phil.3:20

The above in black is exactly what happens when the Lord comes to gather His church, dead and living. Our citizenship is in heaven and we are waiting a Savior from there who will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body, immortal and glorified. And notice that our citizenship is in heaven when that takes place.

It's not bias, but is scripturally sound. Your comparison is not valid. God did not remove Israel from the earth because He had promised them the land of Canaan. How could they possess the land if God removed them from the earth? Same thing with Noah. If God had removed Noah and his family from the earth and then flooded it, there would be no one on the earth to repopulate it.

Your error is not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath which will affect the entire world. There will be no small city for the church to run to and no ark's for us to get on to escape God's coming, unprecedented wrath. Our money will be no good and the only way to be able to pay our mortgages, rents, buy gas, groceries, etc., etc., would be by receiving the mark of the beast. But since these things are all a part of God's wrath, then you would be saying that God will be pouring out His wrath upon His church, which by the way is nowhere mentioned in the narrative of God's wrath, nor is there anything mentioned about the church being protected during that time.

As I said in earlier posts, those who are believing and teaching in a post tribulation gathering of the church, cannot at the same time be believing in the imminent return of the Lord, because God's wrath has to take place first before the Lord can return to the earth to end the age. If that was the case, then we would not have to watch and be ready as the Lord warns us, because He wouldn't be able to return to the earth until after His wrath is completed.

But for those who believe that the Lord is going to gather His church prior to His wrath, then the Lord's appearing to gather His church is truly imminent, i.e. it could happen any moment, because nothing has to take place prior to His appearing and our being gathered.

By your teaching that the Lord is going to gather His church after His wrath, you are teaching others and new believers that even though they are saved, they still have to go through God's wrath. What? For good measure? It means that you hold what Jesus accomplished regarding God's wrath as having no value.

"But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed."

Everyone who believes and teaches a post wrath gathering of the church, is ignoring what Jesus accomplished above, because you are putting the living church through the wrath that Jesus himself satisfied.

Yes

Concerning the last supper dialogue;
Jesus said " i will not drink of the cup again until i drink it anew with you in Gods kingdom"

That drink part destroys the notion of non glorified bodies in houses in heaven.

They get owned by their "CLEVRNESS"

FreeGrace2 · Jul 1, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

It gets a bit tiring when a passage is explained yet readers keep failing to grasp what is explained.

Jesus had not yet died and returned to the Father when He said v.1-3. He was speaking to men who hadn't died YET, but would. When they died, they would go to heaven, where all dead saints go. You know, "absent from the body, face to face with the Lord".

So Jesus was assurring His disciples that there would be a place for them when they died. And then He assures them that when He comes back He will "take them to be with Him so that they may be where He is".

That says nothing about going back to heaven, so please STOP trying to use this passage to support a pretrib "take 'em all to heaven" routine.

It seems pretribbers just won't let go of their biases.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 1, 2021

Absolutely said:

It is clear to clear minded believers who aren't trying very hard to protect their opinions.

Says the guy who has zero verses to support Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

The pretribbers vain attempts are certainly comical, but very sad at the same time.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 1, 2021

Absolutely said:

When Jesus returns at the Second Advent, whose kingdom is it? Are there 2 kingdoms? One Jesus' and one the Father? Or is it just one united kingdom, with Christ as King?

<sigh> what have you been drinking??!!

Absolutely · Jul 1, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

It gets a bit tiring when a passage is explained yet readers keep failing to grasp what is explained.

Jesus had not yet died and returned to the Father when He said v.1-3. He was speaking to men who hadn't died YET, but would. When they died, they would go to heaven, where all dead saints go. You know, "absent from the body, face to face with the Lord".

So Jesus was assurring His disciples that there would be a place for them when they died. And then He assures them that when He comes back He will "take them to be with Him so that they may be where He is".

That says nothing about going back to heaven, so please STOP trying to use this passage to support a pretrib "take 'em all to heaven" routine.

It seems pretribbers just won't let go of their biases.

The part where they DRINK WITH JESUS, in heaven, destroys your supposition.

Pretrib is correct biblically. No additives or preservatives needed.
Just a bible.

Mem · Jul 1, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

that is funny tho. haaa

Absolutely · Jul 1, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

"""Says the guy who has zero verses to support Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven."""

They are there.
So again you have only suppositions.

The school bus takes the children to school . we both see them enter the bus.

You= " did you see the bus arrive at school. I say they did a uturn and went home. There is no evidence they went to school...did you see the bus arrive at school???? Do you have pictures????"

Me= who are those young uns sitting in the school and how did they get there?

Beyond that.
Rev 14 gathering DURING THE TRIB, is cleverly diminished and voided in what clever way?

You cannot reconciled the rapture verses

I still have my unanswered challenge to postribbers to please, please post for us a postrib rapture verse.
None have to date.

Peace my friend

cv5 · Jul 1, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

You still don't understand:

-Daniels 70 weeks prophecy
-The mystery of the Church
-The fullness of the Gentiles
-the DOTL
-The marriage symbolism of the last supper
-The specific nature and identity of the Bride of Christ, and Jesus usage of marriage symbolism

Many other people are confused about Luke 21 and 70 AD, which makes a train wreck out of their eschatology.

A full and complete understanding of these topics and presto you've got a pre-trib rapture, earthly millennial kingdom, reconstitution of Israel, all biblical covenants and prophecies are completely fulfilled. And maximum glory to God and the Lamb.

However if you DO NOT understand these topics.......you've got hapless posters running around in circles like a dog chasing its tail. For hundreds of pages.

Mem · Jul 1, 2021

Ok so...

The pretrib position hinges on the tribulation not beginning until the man of sin is reveal and the DOTL includes the tribulation of the saints, except those raptured before tribulation, who commence to enjoy tea and crumpets in their own private party, of course.

and

The postrib position stands that the DOTL does not begin until the man of sin is revealed (both agree on this point, yaye!) and excludes the tribulation, of which all must partake in together with those that went before them, as also with the reception afterwards.

50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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