Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[pumpkinbread1567]

Question to postribs.
Then in the same breath that "this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled( the second coming on white horses in vs 30)"

Do you realize you are saying the 2nd coming had ALREADY HAPPENED?????

I think this analogy by ewq is kinda redundant inasmuch as the word "ουτος" essentially means "the same". There is no way to distinguish between "This" and "That" in Koine Greek except through the context. (ex. man attacked a girl. The same man was imprisoned. I think "The same" here may technically be paraphrased as "That" rather than "This" because the actions in question are not in the immediate past though both work.)

In the case of Matthew 24:34, there is no "generation" to refer to in the immediate past, and therefore the use of "that" would not work, but you can determine that Jesus was addressing "a generation" that is not specific to any "years", and that applies to everybody-the generation that was in front of Him. Hence, "This" generation seems to be correct. (Ref. Mat 3:17)

As for the word "Generation" there, as you see in Luke 11:30-32, it doesn't have to mean a set of people living at the same time. As was stated most evidently by Jesus in Mat 24:34, we're practically all in the same generation that they were in--an evil generation.

As I've just mentioned in my post, "This generation" that Jesus was addressing has yet to pass. The 2nd coming could not possibly have happened as everything written has not been completely come to pass. So no. We do not believe what you may have thought we believe.

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

.....and yet they never saw the great tribulation or rev 14 gathering of Jews, or the white horse 2nd coming

What has been quoted by TheLearner is, in other words, evidence that "This generation" is not (just) the people living 2000yrs ago.

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

and those gathered rising into the heavens,

You want to stay in the "heavens" aka the outer space till judgement?​

then returning to earth after judgement

1. If there is a single verse supporting a group of saints' return to Earth upon Judgement, please share that with the members here. (I've never seen one.)
2. Last but not least, if you return "after judgement" at which the Lord himself descends, that means you won't return with Christ but alone.

Despite all of that, there is not a single letter of Paul referring to a rapture pre-trib. The only passage in which he mentioned it concerns the Day of the Lord ("The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a command"), which is the day of judgement in itself.

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

You want to stay in the "heavens" aka the outer space till judgement?

Sorry. I meant literally the skies.

If rapture took you to "heavens" until after judgement, that means you'd stay in the skies above, floating in the air while all the apocalypse of Rev 8-9 comes upon the Earth (Luke 21:26), including the Star Wormwood.

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

Sorry. I meant literally the skies.

If rapture took you to "heavens" until after judgement, that means you'd stay in the skies above, floating in the air while all the apocalypse of Rev 8-9 comes upon the Earth (Luke 21:26), including the Star Wormwood.

Anyone with the right mind would perceive that this is very silly.

 

[soberxp]

I sometimes wonder if there are traitors in the church and why these poor interpretations of the Bible are acceptable,
And because of these poor biblical interpretations, we split up and attack each other

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

I sometimes wonder if there are traitors in the church and why these poor interpretations of the Bible are acceptable,
And because of these poor biblical interpretations, we split up and attack each other

There is no doubt about that. People like John Nelson Darby started this whole split, building upon the "third temple theology" to justify it. It's all Zionistic. (When I was into listening to Pastor Henderson and whatnot, I kept seeing comments about the "coming third temple in Jerusalem" for Anti-Christ.)

Zionism! Just like certain men crept in among the believers of the old churches (Jude 1:4), such people's doctrines creep into the church today. And just like Church of Jerusalem went through turmoil after the murder of Stephan, which was all inspired by Gamaliel in the first place, the same thing can happen at any time where there is a HUGE revival, and I believe America will be first for that kind of revival.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

1. If there is a single verse supporting a group of saints' return to Earth upon Judgement, please share that with the members here. (I've never seen one.)
2. Last but not least, if you return "after judgement" at which the Lord himself descends, that means you won't return with Christ but alone.

Despite all of that, there is not a single letter of Paul referring to a rapture pre-trib. The only passage in which he mentioned it concerns the Day of the Lord ("The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a command"), which is the day of judgement in itself.

Jesus doesn't only "judge" merely on "a singular 24-hr day" (that kind of "day").

Rather, a very lengthy time-period kind of "day".

 

[randyk]

There is no doubt about that. People like John Nelson Darby started this whole split, building upon the "third temple theology" to justify it. It's all Zionistic. (When I was into listening to Pastor Henderson and whatnot, I kept seeing comments about the "coming third temple in Jerusalem" for Anti-Christ.)

Zionism! Just like certain men crept in among the believers of the old churches (Jude 1:4), such people's doctrines creep into the church today. And just like Church of Jerusalem went through turmoil after the murder of Stephan, which was all inspired by Gamaliel in the first place, the same thing can happen at any time where there is a HUGE revival, and I believe America will be first for that kind of revival.

My own feeling is that half truths are the most dangerous kind of truths. Darby produced a lie with his Pretrib, but also created a truth with his Premil view of Israel's restoration. Israel's future restoration, "never again to be uprooted," was a belief held in the early years of the Church. Only with time did the Church lose belief in Israel's future restoration--eventually, Premill beliefs turned to Amill beliefs.

Darby did help to bring back a Premill view, and I would thank him for that. But the whole Pretrib thing is, I think a bust, because it doesn't exist in all of biblical eschatology.

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

Only with time did the Church lose belief in Israel's future restoration--

It's also the thing that Darby twisted inasmuch as there is no separation between the Church and Israel. With his view that the "Church" will be removed, he made it out to be as if the "Church" only consisted of Gentiles which is TOTALLY non-Scriptural. Needless to say the "church of Jerusalem" existed back then. So for Israel's restoration, it's impossible for the Church to be missing bcs, through Israel, all believers are reconciled.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

pumpkinbread1567 said:
Sorry. I meant literally the skies.

If rapture took you to "heavens" until after judgement, that means you'd stay in the skies above, floating in the air while all the apocalypse of Rev 8-9 comes upon the Earth (Luke 21:26), including the Star Wormwood.

Anyone with the right mind would perceive that this is very silly.

^ That is also not representative of the "pre-trib" perspective.

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

Jesus doesn't only "judge" merely on "a singular 24-hr day" (that kind of "day").

Rather, a very lengthy time-period kind of "day".

I agree with you. That's how 1000yr reign is justified. It's coz 1 day with the Lord is as 1000 yrs, and 1000yrs as 1 day. It begins after the whole beast situation as John recorded. = Day of the Lord.

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

^ That is also not representative of the "pre-trib" perspective.

The question was meant for @Absolutely

 

[randyk]

It's also the thing that Darby twisted inasmuch as there is no separation between the Church and Israel. With his view that the "Church" will be removed, he made it out to be as if the "Church" only consisted of Gentiles which is TOTALLY non-Scriptural. Needless to say the "church of Jerusalem" existed back then. So for Israel's restoration, it's impossible for the Church to be missing bcs, through Israel, all believers are reconciled.

Yes, the break Dispys make between Israel and the Church does not exist in Paul's theology. Distinguishing among the various nations of the world is entirely bibiical. Quite often it is quoted that ethnicity doesn't matter in Christ. That is true only with respect to the qualifications for entry into Christian Salvation. It has nothing to do with whether the Bible distinguishes among nations. Obviously, it does!

 

[randyk]

I agree with you. That's how 1000yr reign is justified. It's coz 1 day with the Lord is as 1000 yrs, and 1000yrs as 1 day. It begins after the whole beast situation as John recorded. = Day of the Lord.

But a "day" in the context of Christ's Coming appears to refer to a literal 24 hour day. The judgment referred to is the destruction of the Antichrist.

2 Thes 1.6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. ...
2 Thes 2.8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

 

[Absolutely]

You want to stay in the "heavens" aka the outer space till judgement?​

1. If there is a single verse supporting a group of saints' return to Earth upon Judgement, please share that with the members here. (I've never seen one.)
2. Last but not least, if you return "after judgement" at which the Lord himself descends, that means you won't return with Christ but alone.

Despite all of that, there is not a single letter of Paul referring to a rapture pre-trib. The only passage in which he mentioned it concerns the Day of the Lord ("The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a command"), which is the day of judgement in itself.

You miss it massively.

Postribs say we are raptured POSTRIB.
AHEM....THAT IS POSTJUDGEMENT.

SOOOOOO, they need AN EXAMPLE.

PLAY OT OUT

noah...NOPE
Lot...NOPE.

BUT..... noah LEFT INTO THE SKY PREFLOOD/PRETRIB.

NOAH RETURNED.... postrib/flood

Just a fact.
Reframe it
Get more creative.

 

[Absolutely]

Anyone with the right mind would perceive that this is very silly.

Tell it to Jesus.
He wrote rev 14 and 19.

My job is easy. Incorporate the word of God and force my opponent to against God.

""" 1) If there is a single verse supporting a group of saints' return to Earth upon Judgement, please share that with the members here. (I've never seen one.)
2)Last but not least, if you return "after judgement" at which the Lord himself descends, that means you won't return with Christ but alone."""

You serious!!!
You never read rev 19???
You do not know that POSTRIBS USE mat 24 " AFTER THE TRIB" AS THEIR MAIN BANNER???

PLEASE REGROUP AND TRY AGAIN

 

[Absolutely]

Anyone with the right mind would perceive that this is very silly.

Tell it to Jesus.
He wrote rev 14 and 19.

My job is easy. Incorporate the word of God and force my opponent to against God.

""" 1) If there is a single verse supporting a group of saints' return to Earth upon Judgement, please share that with the members here. (I've never seen one.)
2)Last but not least, if you return "after judgement" at which the Lord himself descends, that means you won't return with Christ but alone."""

You serious!!!
You never read rev 19???
You do not know that POSTRIBS USE mat 24 " AFTER THE TRIB" AS THEIR MAIN BANNER???

PLEASE REGOUP AND TRY AGAIN

As I've just mentioned in my post, "This generation" that Jesus was addressing has yet to pass. The 2nd coming could not possibly have happened as everything written has not been completely come to pass. So no. We do not believe what you may have thought we believe.

So you believe ,as the bible teaches, in pretrib rapture since postrib, as you correctly state, is false and impossible?

 

[Absolutely]

It's also the thing that Darby twisted inasmuch as there is no separation between the Church and Israel. With his view that the "Church" will be removed, he made it out to be as if the "Church" only consisted of Gentiles which is TOTALLY non-Scriptural. Needless to say the "church of Jerusalem" existed back then. So for Israel's restoration, it's impossible for the Church to be missing bcs, through Israel, all believers are reconciled.

then the word is gutted because we see the 144k as ethnic Jews.

Read the word.

Your jewish covenant people reframing is error.

As romans CLEARLY says God re establishes them.

 

[Absolutely]

why do you assume that the wise will flee to "heaven"?


Yes. Until the flood, both Lot and Noah had to live with those wicked with giants around. They didn't escape until the very end, which doesn't go with Pre-Trib in the first place unlike ppl keep relating to it like you did.

They entered the ark BEFORE THE FLOOD.

Please re read the story.