saving individuals or nations?

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randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
902
268
63
Pacific NW USA
#1
This subject is controversial, but I'd like to share my opinion that God saves nations, as well as individuals. These two concepts are, however, different in their substance. Individual Salvation is a matter of being spiritually reborn, and completely changed on the inside into a new creature so that God can be properly put 1st in everything. But national salvation has to do with preserving the infrastructure of government, society, and people so that an entire organization of people can be blessed by the interrelationship of many unique talents. God wishes to save both individuals and nations in this way.

National Salvation is more like deliverance in wartime, such as deliverance from an enemy. It is the preservation of the entire national structure against the threat of some outside force wishing to destroy it. The OT Scriptures were focused many times on the preservation of the nation Israel, beause God promised Abrham natural descendants would form into a nation and an eternal testimony to His faithfulness. It was a reward for the righteousness of Abraham in his response to God's word.

I believe Israel was given, by God, to be a model for all nations, so that all nations would learn how to be righteous and to please God, so that they also would form into nations that God would preserve. We know, from the OT stories, that Israel succeeded as a nation when they were righteous, but fell as a nation when they turned against God's word and rebelled against it.

Though there are many prophecies in the Scriptures that speak of many nations bringing glory to the Lord, and causing His glory to be global, not much is mentioned specifically of "Christian nations." And so, some get the idea that since Israel seemed to have passed away, God doesn't save nations anymore.

But the reality is, God didn't mention "Christian nations" specifically because they had not yet developed in the time of the writing of the NT Scriptures. Historically, God fulfilled the 1st stage in His promises to Abraham by 1st gathering Israel as a nation, and then gathering Christian nations. God had also promised Abraham a family of faith among nations.

The last stage in fulfilling these promises God will send Christ back to judge the world, so that nations can no longer be oppressed and coerced to fall from their Christian faith. When Christ returns, both Israel and many nations will, I believe, become permanent Christian nations.

Just thought I would share this for your interest. Those who have turned against the idea of nations being saved by God are missing out, I think. They don't realize that God is restoring Israel as a nation, after all. Though Israel isn't Christian yet, God may be preparing them for final judgment before He saves them.

Furthermore, it is to our benefit to believe that nations can be saved. By the example of Israel we know that when we repent of our sins, and turn to Christ and live in righteousness, God will hear our prayers and deliver our nation. If we don't know this, we won't testify to the righteousness our nation needs to be saved! Even if the majority in our nation don't listen, it is still necessary to preach the truth of Christian righteousness, because God will use this testimony to hold those who hear accountable. He can then judge and remove the wicked to make a better place for those who are righteous.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#2
This subject is controversial,
Maybe not. let us take a stab at it.

God saves nations,
God makes salvation available to nations, but the choice to accept is always left to the individual. Jesus died for all and calls all. Many OT sayings and events and situations where given to us in order to shed light on spiritual truths that apply today. John 3:16 is really not that complicated.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#3
National Salvation is more like deliverance in wartime,
We, as Christians, are to be a separated people. We are marching onward to Zion, where our undivided allegiance and citizenship must lie.

2 Corinthians
6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,
6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
2,511
482
83
#4
It's more difficult to save the country than to save someone. Those government leaders only know politics
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#5
It's more difficult to save the country than to save someone. Those government leaders only know politics
They are of this world. We are not of this world. They shall hate us, just as they hated our Master.
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
902
268
63
Pacific NW USA
#6
We, as Christians, are to be a separated people. We are marching onward to Zion, where our undivided allegiance and citizenship must lie.

2 Corinthians
6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,
6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
Absolutely agree with you, and practice that too. But this has little to do with the subject matter. Nations include both believers and unbelievers. Our nation can adopt a Christian Constitution, to which all the people must subscribe. They do not all have to be practicing believers for this to be a reality.

And it has indeed been a reality in the past. Many nations have done the equivalent of adopt a Christian Constitution. The laws that govern the State govern *everybody,* regardless of whether they are all true believers.

I'm not talking about an attempt at Salvation by rights of national citizenship. I'm talking about God's promise to create Christian nations, even though many of the citizens are not true believers. The hope is in having a society based on Christian law.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#7
I'm talking about God's promise to create Christian nations, even though many of the citizens are not true believers. The hope is in having a society based on Christian law.
Legislating morality is neither God's promise nor God's will in this age. We are under Christian Liberty, not the OT Law. Neither America nor any other worldly nation is founded upon Christ. It is of this world and we, the Church, are called out to be a separate people. We are marching onward to Zion. Any politician will say any thing to get votes. America does not "trust in God". America trusts in the filthy lucre that this lie is stamped on. It appears that some in here are struggling with an identity crises.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,188
113
#8
This subject is controversial, but I'd like to share my opinion that God saves nations, as well as individuals. These two concepts are, however, different in their substance. Individual Salvation is a matter of being spiritually reborn, and completely changed on the inside into a new creature so that God can be properly put 1st in everything. But national salvation has to do with preserving the infrastructure of government, society, and people so that an entire organization of people can be blessed by the interrelationship of many unique talents. God wishes to save both individuals and nations in this way.

National Salvation is more like deliverance in wartime, such as deliverance from an enemy. It is the preservation of the entire national structure against the threat of some outside force wishing to destroy it. The OT Scriptures were focused many times on the preservation of the nation Israel, beause God promised Abrham natural descendants would form into a nation and an eternal testimony to His faithfulness. It was a reward for the righteousness of Abraham in his response to God's word.

I believe Israel was given, by God, to be a model for all nations, so that all nations would learn how to be righteous and to please God, so that they also would form into nations that God would preserve. We know, from the OT stories, that Israel succeeded as a nation when they were righteous, but fell as a nation when they turned against God's word and rebelled against it.

Though there are many prophecies in the Scriptures that speak of many nations bringing glory to the Lord, and causing His glory to be global, not much is mentioned specifically of "Christian nations." And so, some get the idea that since Israel seemed to have passed away, God doesn't save nations anymore.

But the reality is, God didn't mention "Christian nations" specifically because they had not yet developed in the time of the writing of the NT Scriptures. Historically, God fulfilled the 1st stage in His promises to Abraham by 1st gathering Israel as a nation, and then gathering Christian nations. God had also promised Abraham a family of faith among nations.

The last stage in fulfilling these promises God will send Christ back to judge the world, so that nations can no longer be oppressed and coerced to fall from their Christian faith. When Christ returns, both Israel and many nations will, I believe, become permanent Christian nations.

Just thought I would share this for your interest. Those who have turned against the idea of nations being saved by God are missing out, I think. They don't realize that God is restoring Israel as a nation, after all. Though Israel isn't Christian yet, God may be preparing them for final judgment before He saves them.

Furthermore, it is to our benefit to believe that nations can be saved. By the example of Israel we know that when we repent of our sins, and turn to Christ and live in righteousness, God will hear our prayers and deliver our nation. If we don't know this, we won't testify to the righteousness our nation needs to be saved! Even if the majority in our nation don't listen, it is still necessary to preach the truth of Christian righteousness, because God will use this testimony to hold those who hear accountable. He can then judge and remove the wicked to make a better place for those who are righteous.
is this like how England sent all their 'baddies' to Australia...you know, out of sight, out of mind, and then they in turn made life tough for the aborigines?
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
902
268
63
Pacific NW USA
#9
is this like how England sent all their 'baddies' to Australia...you know, out of sight, out of mind, and then they in turn made life tough for the aborigines?
My wife is English. I'm not going there....
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
902
268
63
Pacific NW USA
#10
Legislating morality is neither God's promise nor God's will in this age. We are under Christian Liberty, not the OT Law. Neither America nor any other worldly nation is founded upon Christ. It is of this world and we, the Church, are called out to be a separate people. We are marching onward to Zion. Any politician will say any thing to get votes. America does not "trust in God". America trusts in the filthy lucre that this lie is stamped on. It appears that some in here are struggling with an identity crises.
Would you prefer your county legislate *immorality* and base your system on Islam?
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#11
Scripture is written by a spiritual God, not a fleshly one. As we read scripture, we need to keep in mind the mind of the author: God.

The old testament is the biggest part of scripture, it is the foundation of the new testament Christians today are most familiar with, but it is the source so it influences every word of the new testament. Ever since Abraham, the nations in the old testament were heathens. If they accepted the true God they became Hebrews. To belong to a nation was to accept the idol that represented that nation. We need to keep this in mind as we read of the relationship God has with nations.

Jesus began to change this, and when God sent Paul to us as our apostle it really changed. But God has always related to people as individuals.

If you read the history of Sodom and Gomorrah and the history of Germany as the people brought on Hitler, you will see that if the bulk of people turn from their God, then even God's people who live there suffer.
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
902
268
63
Pacific NW USA
#12
Scripture is written by a spiritual God, not a fleshly one. As we read scripture, we need to keep in mind the mind of the author: God.

The old testament is the biggest part of scripture, it is the foundation of the new testament Christians today are most familiar with, but it is the source so it influences every word of the new testament. Ever since Abraham, the nations in the old testament were heathens. If they accepted the true God they became Hebrews. To belong to a nation was to accept the idol that represented that nation. We need to keep this in mind as we read of the relationship God has with nations.
Not accurate. Naaman accepted the true God and did not become a Hebrew. So your arguments are predicated on a false premise, to start with. People across the globe could've contained people who believed in the true God, a God of righteousness and justice. Even in their ignorance, they could have indirectly responded to God by obeying their conscience. They are not automatically converted into a "Hebrew" once they acknowledge the true God. There were, as a matter of fact, many believers in God well before there even was a Hebrew.

Jesus began to change this, and when God sent Paul to us as our apostle it really changed. But God has always related to people as individuals.

If you read the history of Sodom and Gomorrah and the history of Germany as the people brought on Hitler, you will see that if the bulk of people turn from their God, then even God's people who live there suffer.
Yes, God's People suffer in Christian countries that apostacize, or in pagan nations that simply don't want to be bound by righteousness. But nations that adopt Christianity will follow a more righteous standard. They won't practice it perfectly, but it will be better than a pagan country.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#13
Would you prefer your county legislate *immorality* and base your system on Islam?
Prefer it to what? A catholic crusader ideology? Yes, I think I would. Those were very dark days. That is where your ideas lead. The Millennial Reign will come in God's good time, not yours.
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
902
268
63
Pacific NW USA
#14
Prefer it to what? A catholic crusader ideology? Yes, I think I would. Those were very dark days. That is where your ideas lead. The Millennial Reign will come in God's good time, not yours.
What horrible logic! You think a Christian nation is of necessity a "crusader ideology?" I believe God would be pleased if as activists we promote a Christian govt. You can have your cynicism.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#15
What horrible logic! You think a Christian nation is of necessity a "crusader ideology?" I believe God would be pleased if as activists we promote a Christian govt. You can have your cynicism.
We do not please God by riding off to DC on our own little ponies like Yankee Doodle. God is completely sovereign and does not need or want your help in ushering in His Kingdom. He gave us our commission. Lets stick to it.

I love you, brother. Please do not take offence to what I say. Lets just follow His plan.

Romans
12:10 [Be] kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
12:11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
12:13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
12:14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
12:15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
12:16 [Be] of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
902
268
63
Pacific NW USA
#16
We do not please God by riding off to DC on our own little ponies like Yankee Doodle. God is completely sovereign and does not need or want your help in ushering in His Kingdom. He gave us our commission. Lets stick to it.

I love you, brother. Please do not take offence to what I say. Lets just follow His plan.
Thanks, because of your kind words, I won't take offense. I just want you to know that I believe that part of our Commission, to preach the Gospel, is to preach the Gospel of the *Kingdom.* And the Kingdom of God is the reality that righteousness is not just for the individual, but also for the nation. We should preach Christianity as the proper politic for our nation, and not Islam, nor paganism, nor any form of idolatry. We are to preach Christ as the only Way, Truth, and Life.

It's okay to disagree agreeably. If I can't dissuade you from your position, I'm fine with that. But nothing you've said convinces me that being active in promoting the Gospel of the Kingdom is outside of the Great Commission.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,773
113
#17
I believe Israel was given, by God, to be a model for all nations, so that all nations would learn how to be righteous and to please God, so that they also would form into nations that God would preserve.
This is the only nation with which God was (and will be) involved. As we know, salvation is on an individual basis, and it is based upon faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Because Israel -- AS A NATION -- rejected Him, they paid a heavy price. But it is not over. The Tribulation will be "the time of Jacob's [Israel's] trouble". And only one third of all Jews worldwide will be saved after the Second Coming of Christ. But among those, all twelve tribes will be represented. So Israel will be redeemed and restored. Other nations will exist beside it but only believers will be present in those nations.
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
902
268
63
Pacific NW USA
#18
This is the only nation with which God was (and will be) involved. As we know, salvation is on an individual basis, and it is based upon faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Because Israel -- AS A NATION -- rejected Him, they paid a heavy price. But it is not over. The Tribulation will be "the time of Jacob's [Israel's] trouble". And only one third of all Jews worldwide will be saved after the Second Coming of Christ. But among those, all twelve tribes will be represented. So Israel will be redeemed and restored. Other nations will exist beside it but only believers will be present in those nations.
The problem with this is, you're just asserting that Israel is the "only nation with which God was involved." That has absolutely zero to back it up! It makes far more sense to believe that Israel was made to be a model for all nations. You're implying that Israel failed precisely because they were a nation. Again, this would be pure presumption. God obviously created nations as functional units that provide good for humanity, along with fulfillment. Yes, nations always fail ultimately. But that doesn't mean that God hasn't used them for a good purpose. I believe He continues to do so.

Furthermore, there is evidence not just that God wanted to make nations, but also that He continues to use them as such. Abraham was promised a fatherhood of *nations*--not just individuals derived from nations. We know that God referred to Nation-States because He made Israel the model and the prototype, the 1st of many.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#19
Not accurate. Naaman accepted the true God and did not become a Hebrew. So your arguments are predicated on a false premise, to start with. .
If it is false that every person who accepted God as their God joined the Hebrew nation (you are right about that, thanks for seeing this) it is not true that it is entirely false that ancient people accepted the God of the nation they belonged to. It is part of ancient Hebrew history we need to know. We need to see the difference in the attitudes of people between our world today and the world of ancient Hebrew to best understand what was written of those people.
 

JohnRH

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2018
673
322
63
#20
This subject is controversial, but I'd like to share my opinion that God saves nations, as well as individuals. These two concepts are, however, different in their substance. Individual Salvation is a matter of being spiritually reborn, and completely changed on the inside into a new creature so that God can be properly put 1st in everything. But national salvation has to do with preserving the infrastructure of government, society, and people so that an entire organization of people can be blessed by the interrelationship of many unique talents. God wishes to save both individuals and nations in this way.

National Salvation is more like deliverance in wartime, such as deliverance from an enemy. It is the preservation of the entire national structure against the threat of some outside force wishing to destroy it. The OT Scriptures were focused many times on the preservation of the nation Israel, beause God promised Abrham natural descendants would form into a nation and an eternal testimony to His faithfulness. It was a reward for the righteousness of Abraham in his response to God's word.

I believe Israel was given, by God, to be a model for all nations, so that all nations would learn how to be righteous and to please God, so that they also would form into nations that God would preserve. We know, from the OT stories, that Israel succeeded as a nation when they were righteous, but fell as a nation when they turned against God's word and rebelled against it.

Though there are many prophecies in the Scriptures that speak of many nations bringing glory to the Lord, and causing His glory to be global, not much is mentioned specifically of "Christian nations." And so, some get the idea that since Israel seemed to have passed away, God doesn't save nations anymore.

But the reality is, God didn't mention "Christian nations" specifically because they had not yet developed in the time of the writing of the NT Scriptures. Historically, God fulfilled the 1st stage in His promises to Abraham by 1st gathering Israel as a nation, and then gathering Christian nations. God had also promised Abraham a family of faith among nations.

The last stage in fulfilling these promises God will send Christ back to judge the world, so that nations can no longer be oppressed and coerced to fall from their Christian faith. When Christ returns, both Israel and many nations will, I believe, become permanent Christian nations.

Just thought I would share this for your interest. Those who have turned against the idea of nations being saved by God are missing out, I think. They don't realize that God is restoring Israel as a nation, after all. Though Israel isn't Christian yet, God may be preparing them for final judgment before He saves them.

Furthermore, it is to our benefit to believe that nations can be saved. By the example of Israel we know that when we repent of our sins, and turn to Christ and live in righteousness, God will hear our prayers and deliver our nation. If we don't know this, we won't testify to the righteousness our nation needs to be saved! Even if the majority in our nation don't listen, it is still necessary to preach the truth of Christian righteousness, because God will use this testimony to hold those who hear accountable. He can then judge and remove the wicked to make a better place for those who are righteous.
Interesting subject. Here are a couple of passages that seem to support what you're saying:

And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them. 21 And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform it. 22 And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the LORD, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them. Isaiah 19:20-22 (KJV)

So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them. 6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. 7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: 8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. 9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? 10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. Jonah 3:5-10 (KJV)

I'm not sure what you mean by "Christian nations" though. I think "state churches" are wrong, but a nation can repent and turn to the Lord apart from having one.