Pentecostalism's sketchy origins

[PaulChristensen]

Like me, I believe you are deluded, as I was for 15 years when I sincerely thought I was speaking in tongues. But when I saw the fruit in the lives of members of my Pentecostal congregation, and realized it was not there, I began to examine my own heart and practices.

I pray God will realign you on this matter, and you will recover the sound doctrinal background you obviously have. I think you are probably sincere in your beliefs. I just think you are sincerely wrong.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I have had quite a serious conversation with the Lord about the way I pray in tongues, and I asked Him on what basis can I have the assurance that what I do pray He understands and appreciates. He said to me, "I inspired a whole chapter in the New Testament concerning tongues, so you can have confidence in what I inspired Paul to write about it. Also, when you asked for the gift, I gave you exactly what you asked for, and as you know, I showed you by making your tongue understandable in the New Zealand Maori language to a bilingual friend sitting beside you at church. When you pray in tongues, you are using pure faith and confidence in what I inspired in My Word through Paul."

So, you can believe that I, as well as others who pray in tongues, deluded, but I know when God speaks to me, having heard His voice on a regular basis since He revealed Himself to me in 1969, and have been living in the light of His countenance for the last 52 years!

I am reminded about what Gamaliel said to the other Jewish leaders about the emerging Christian church. He said that if it was false, it would die away like all the other pretending religious movements, but if it is really of God, they might find themselves fighting against God.

What makes me different to you is that my praying in tongues is securely founded in God's written Word, both in the Gospel of Luke where it says that God gives exactly what one asks for and nothing else, and 1 Corinthians 14 where specific guidance and instruction about tongues is clearly set out. But you are making your statements without any Scriptural basis whatever, and therefore your accusation of delusionment is totally without foundation.

 

[AandW]

Some of the replies here present so many thoughts and questions.

Let's use the example by Paul, who claimed to Speak in Tongues more than anyone else and desired that everyone else spoke in Tongues as much as he did.

1) The amount of Speaking in Tongues that Paul refers to has to mean Speaking in Tongues in his personal prayers and in a Church setting.

2) We all know how personal at home prayers are like. So if Paul is speaking in Tongues all of the time, it's rather clear not every time he Spoke in Tongues was there interpretation.

2A) That means Paul used Speaking in Tongues as a Power Prayer and why he explains the Edification that comes from Speaking in Tongues.

3) That also means, Paul, would have sounded like Churches that believe in Speaking in Tongues.

4) The fact that Paul stated he wished everyone would Speak in Tongues as much as he did, means anyone who is Saved and filled with the Holy Spirit has the ability to Speak in Tongues like Paul did.

So then, how can one say it's wrong to Speak in Tongues the way they do, when it most likely is the very example of how Paul did it all of the time?

 

[Aidan1]

Ok, no problem yet if you are speaking of all as you have and not fully knowing all who are Pentecostals as you have said about those who are, being ungodly and unbiblical makes you hateful. it is what you said that is hateful not what you don't believe.

many people here have said " I don't believe the Gift of Tongues is for today" Ok so be it no problem. I have not said they are unbiblical I disagree yet they are just as saved as I from what I see in the confession of Christ. I have heard those say the "tongues I see today is not the one in the Bible "

I agree to appoint with that because many have abused the gifts of the Holy Spirit. There are two examples where I agree with those who do not see The gift of tongues for today. I did not say they were of the devil as you have, I have not saved them practicing pagan beliefs as you have. I have yet to even mention their denomination if they even have one. You have not provided anything edifying or testimony of how God is using you today.

Do you pray today for sick people are they healed? You said you leave it in the hands of God. But attack those who believe God heals today.

I pray daily for people that god may heal them. Some gone healed, some not.
But to pray for sick people is not the most important for an follower of Jesus, right?

 

[Evmur]

I pray daily for people that god may heal them. Some gone healed, some not.
But to pray for sick people is not the most important for an follower of Jesus, right?

Is that for us to decide? nobody doubts that being saved from sin is the most important matter.

But in the gospel healing and salvation are side by side. In fact you might say it is full salvation.

I said to you "Himself bare our sins" and we will stake our lives upon it but it is no more nor less true "Himself carried our diseases" Jesus never saved from sin but left the folk sick.

But YOU decide it is less important ... mebbe that's why there is less healing ... not you personally I mean but christians generally ...

Do not many times multiplied more people come to listen to the gospel when healing is manifest? how then is it less important? wasn't it so with Jesus and the apostles? did He not instruct us? is it not true today?

Someone else has said this is a big topic on it's own and it is, but it is time the evangelicals were willing to engage with it.

 

[mustaphadrink]

I can't say because I'm not familiar with every form and expression of Pentecostalism.

What I am saying is the doctrine of latter rain is false and the doctrine of speaking in tongues as the outward sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is false. Every Pentecostal group I've ever encountered hold to these two doctrines in one form or another. These are the two doctrines Parham believed and were instrumental in what eventually was the "outpouring of the Holy Spirit" on New Year's eve. If there are Pentecostals who don't buy into these sketchy doctrines then I say kudos and blessings to them.

In the Restoration Movement in the UK in the 70s and 80s no one said you had to speak in tongues to prove that you had been baptised in the Holy Spirit. Making sweeping allegations without evidence is not the best way to convince people of your veracity..

What makes the doctrine (sic) of the latter rain false? Evidence please.

I knew I was baptised in the Holy Spirit because as I was praying I started speaking in other tongues.

 

[mustaphadrink]

Yes, Pentecostalism may still be around but sinking sand refers to those who buy into it. They don't have a firm foundation, in my view.

I am glad you said "in my view" because that is all it is. In every denomination there is good and bad and our tendency is to throw the baby out with the bathwater. In the UK I attended a small AOG church for a while. The family behind it were the most gracious people you could wish to meet.

At the united monthly praise and worship meetings we had during the Restoration Movement, I sat next to a man and it was very clear during the meeting he was totally in love with Jesus. After the meeting we struck up a conversation and I discovered he was a Catholic.

In Australia I put some money into a start up business venture run by a Catholic. He ripped me off to the tune of $100,000.

In the UK I was discipled by a married couple whose ministry to me was responsible for me being where I am today. They were Baptists.

I cut my leadership teeth in a small Baptist Church where I was invited to lead them and teach them about life in the Spirit. In the three years I was there, everyone of them were batised in the Holy Spirit.

The body of Christ is not a one size fits all experience. It caters for all sorts of people and all sorts of personalities. Some catholics could not live without their rituals. Others cannot be bothered with them. Some Pentes are out of their depth if they are not whooping and hollering. Some evangelicals would not be seen dead in a meeting of that kind.

So the question is "Is what you believe the only acceptable way of thinking and doing things?"

 

[mustaphadrink]

So you living according the OT law?
I have written often enough what is the pentecostal teaching about the Holy Spirit.

Do I? Can you outline for me what my beliefs are regarding that as I am not aware of them.

The fact that I do knot know what you have written is a sign that not every one has an unquenchable thirst for your words.

 

[mustaphadrink]

if you have no argument it is best to own up.

I am not interested in having arguements.

 

[Aidan1]

Is that for us to decide? nobody doubts that being saved from sin is the most important matter.

But in the gospel healing and salvation are side by side. In fact you might say it is full salvation.

I said to you "Himself bare our sins" and we will stake our lives upon it but it is no more nor less true "Himself carried our diseases" Jesus never saved from sin but left the folk sick.

But YOU decide it is less important ... mebbe that's why there is less healing ... not you personally I mean but christians generally ...

Do not many times multiplied more people come to listen to the gospel when healing is manifest? how then is it less important? wasn't it so with Jesus and the apostles? did He not instruct us? is it not true today?

Someone else has said this is a big topic on it's own and it is, but it is time the evangelicals were willing to engage with it.

No its not to us to deceide. What I recognice is, that in Mission ministry healings are more in combination with preaching of the gospel.
In the churches among believers healing is less and normaly a child of god no need to proof the power its father. And I cant find a promiis for a child of God to have a deasease free life.
In the NT mostly the healings where combined with the Gospel for to proof the preachers authority.

 

[Evmur]

No its not to us to deceide. What I recognice is, that in Mission ministry healings are more in combination with preaching of the gospel.
In the churches among believers healing is less and normaly a child of god no need to proof the power its father. And I cant find a promiis for a child of God to have a deasease free life.
In the NT mostly the healings where combined with the Gospel for to proof the preachers authority.

You can't find a promise? do you say that for sin? He bare our sins, He bare our diseases.

What I say is this

We know that normally in the matter of sin there is a battle to be had in getting the mastery over it, we know we dwell in sinful flesh, yet we [if we are taught well] expect to get to the place where sin no more has dominion over us, we want that victory which Jesus won for us on the cross.

The argument for disease is exactly the same. We live in weak bodies. There is a battle to be had, as with sin the battle is for faith, the battle to BELIEVE the good news.

But folk don't preach it the same, your attitude is by far and away the predominant one. We absolutely won't tolerate sin, we are 100 % persistent that it is defeated and must go. But with healing we say "ah well if God wills"

We say with sin He has done it, with sickness we say we hope He will do it.

Evangelicals ought to have been engaged in this matter decades ago, a hundred years ago but they were more interested in throwing dirt on the Pentecostals.

Pentecostals love Evangelicals more than Evangelicals love Pentecostal.

See it's good to debate these things.

 

[SophieT]

Like me, I believe you are deluded, as I was for 15 years when I sincerely thought I was speaking in tongues. But when I saw the fruit in the lives of members of my Pentecostal congregation, and realized it was not there, I began to examine my own heart and practices.

I pray God will realign you on this matter, and you will recover the sound doctrinal background you obviously have. I think you are probably sincere in your beliefs. I just think you are sincerely wrong.

I agree with you on most things, but your personal experience is just that. personal experience and I'm sorry you had things work out that way.

I think you are sincere but also sincerely wrong. I'll be more than happy to let go of any gifts God has given me the day I find out they are not from God and He is free to take away anything that is not from Him. That has always been my prayer. I have had some very negative experiences with people in the 'charasmania' world, but that does not cheapen God or His faithfulness and how He has led me.

We cannot help what others do, as Ben in his post above says and the Bible does not pretend anywhere that everything is just wonderful if you speak in tongues. Sadly though, so many refuse correction and so go on to display things that are not from the Holy Spirit.

We all choose, every single day and hour, how we live out our lives on this earth. Cessationists (not saying you are one as you might belive in the other gifts?) throw out everything and in some cases, I can't say I blame them, but that is not the answer either

 

[CS1]

I pray daily for people that god may heal them. Some gone healed, some not.
But to pray for sick people is not the most important for an follower of Jesus, right?

as do I asked you do you pray for people do you visit a hospital do pray for people as they are right in front of you when someone asks you to pray for them do you pray right then and there for them?

To pray for a sick person is not the most important for a follower of Jesus? Maybe if you read your Bible you will see healing sick people was very much important to Jesus and the Bible recorded many crying to Jesus to heal them. Praying for the sick is not important to you because you are not sick.

 

[Evmur]

I am not interested in having arguements.

good

then you agree with all I say

 

[Evmur]

I agree with you on most things, but your personal experience is just that. personal experience and I'm sorry you had things work out that way.

I think you are sincere but also sincerely wrong. I'll be more than happy to let go of any gifts God has given me the day I find out they are not from God and He is free to take away anything that is not from Him. That has always been my prayer. I have had some very negative experiences with people in the 'charasmania' world, but that does not cheapen God or His faithfulness and how He has led me.

We cannot help what others do, as Ben in his post above says and the Bible does not pretend anywhere that everything is just wonderful if you speak in tongues. Sadly though, so many refuse correction and so go on to display things that are not from the Holy Spirit.

We all choose, every single day and hour, how we live out our lives on this earth. Cessationists (not saying you are one as you might belive in the other gifts?) throw out everything and in some cases, I can't say I blame them, but that is not the answer either

quite so

Gifts and fruits are different things, but God does not revoke His gifts ... you can find exactly the same goings on in other denominations sadly, but the spotlight is not on.

People ought to be taught the world of sorrow they are heading for if they abuse the gifts of the Holy Spirit. They will never be damned but they will pang themselves with many sorrows.

 

[Aidan1]

You can't find a promise? do you say that for sin? He bare our sins, He bare our diseases.

What I say is this

We know that normally in the matter of sin there is a battle to be had in getting the mastery over it, we know we dwell in sinful flesh, yet we [if we are taught well] expect to get to the place where sin no more has dominion over us, we want that victory which Jesus won for us on the cross.

The argument for disease is exactly the same. We live in weak bodies. There is a battle to be had, as with sin the battle is for faith, the battle to BELIEVE the good news.

But folk don't preach it the same, your attitude is by far and away the predominant one. We absolutely won't tolerate sin, we are 100 % persistent that it is defeated and must go. But with healing we say "ah well if God wills"

We say with sin He has done it, with sickness we say we hope He will do it.

Evangelicals ought to have been engaged in this matter decades ago, a hundred years ago but they were more interested in throwing dirt on the Pentecostals.

Pentecostals love Evangelicals more than Evangelicals love Pentecostal.

See it's good to debate these things.

Our sin yes! Our sickness in view of the eternity, i agree.

If pentecostals come along with behaviours, which you find in occultism and in sects, you must not wonder that evangelicals in 1907 dont see in them the carryier of an new of God based pentecost.

 

[CS1]

Our sin yes! Our sickness in view of the eternity, i agree.

If pentecostals come along with behaviours, which you find in occultism and in sects, you must not wonder that evangelicals in 1907 dont see in them the carryier of an new of God based pentecost.

There you go with name-calling again due to your inability to debate Biblically. Do you even know the Greek word for Saved/ salvation? HUH? please tell me I hope know pentacostel has to help you know what it means When Jesus said those words.

 

[AandW]

If pentecostals come along with behaviours, which you find in occultism and in sects, you must not wonder that evangelicals in 1907 dont see in them the carryier of an new of God based pentecost.

What kind of Behaviors?

 

[Aidan1]

as do I asked you do you pray for people do you visit a hospital do pray for people as they are right in front of you when someone asks you to pray for them do you pray right then and there for them?

To pray for a sick person is not the most important for a follower of Jesus? Maybe if you read your Bible you will see healing sick people was very much important to Jesus and the Bible recorded many crying to Jesus to heal them. Praying for the sick is not important to you because you are not sick.

What is more important save in eternity?
Ore healthy, but lost in eternity?

I am working in hospital. The most people in germany are not open for Jesus. The would say there is a God, but if you will talk about Jesus they dont want hear.
But if someone ask me for to pray, i do.

That you judge me, because I see preaching the word is more important, then to heal somebody is realy curious.

When I read the bible, i also read why Jesus did healing and miracles. For to reveal that he is the promissed messajah.

And if Jesus goal was to heal everybody. He would not reached his goal.
All healed people died later, Even Lazarus died later.

 

[CS1]

What is more important save in eternity?
Ore healthy, but lost in eternity?

I am working in hospital. The most people in germany are not open for Jesus. The would say there is a God, but if you will talk about Jesus they dont want hear.
But if someone ask me for to pray, i do.

That you judge me, because I see preaching the word is more important, then to heal somebody is realy curious.

When I read the bible, i also read why Jesus did healing and miracles. For to reveal that he is the promissed messajah.

And if Jesus goal was to heal everybody. He would not reached his goal.
All healed people died later, Even Lazarus died later.

answer my question, sir!


Do you even know the Greek word for Saved/ salvation? AS Jesus said those words NOW answer it please if you can.

 

[Aidan1]

What kind of Behaviors?

F.e. Rolling on the floor, screaming, laughing out of controle, making Horse noises ore falling Backward.