To all of you non flat earthers.

[Timtofly]

1st Incorrect... Every time you face crux, your facing south... ALWAYS

Not sure what u mean by "it points South" but when ever you facing the SC, your facing south...



2nd Incorrect
No matter the orientation of the SC... If you are facing SC, you are facing south... ALWAYS



3rd Incorrect. The southern cross never rises or sets where i live in Australia... It can always bee seen in the night sky

Ive been watching the crux now for 3 months, every night...
I have to go outside to go to the toilet so iv been looking at it then also... LoL... Its too cold sometimes
Its always there, i check my compass... South every time brother

Now at around 6pm the southern cross stands upright, in the 12 o'clock position...
By 6 am it has turned and sit upside down in the 6 o'clock position...

But regardless of the SC orientation... If your facing it, you are facing south my friend... Always

View attachment 228259

Brother... Im sorry, but you've been misinformed

Like I said, every time I look at the moon, I am facing south.

You asked for an explanation. Based on the facts, that was the explanation. You rejected the facts.

Now you claim the crux does not move in the sky, it only points in a different direction. If the crux does not move, then the south pole moves. Because the south pole cannot move on a BE, which is actually moving?

If you claim you are the only object moving, then how have you moved around crux 2 times in each day? It has pointed vertical both at noon and midnight. Does the southern hemisphere spin twice as fast as the rest of the earth?

 

[Timtofly]

Im the zen of patince.... Iv been observing the crux now for over 3 months, every night when i go to the toilet...
Have u done that? Im a monk when it comes to patience... Im so patient im willing to start all over again...
Forget everything thats been said and start all over again... Thats how patient i am... Iv got no where to go...

This time i invite @Moses_Young to be a judge/referee... He is a flat earther but we understood each other. So he should be perfect in helping you and i reach an understanding. Thats if your truly objective and are willing to reach an understanding like Moses and I have... We agree to disagree but we understand each other...

I invite @Dino246 and @surfer14 to be jury as well to watch and see that all is fair...

Im the prosecution... Flat earth is the defence and @GaryA is their barrister... Ok...

Courts in session...


Your honour MY and presiding jury...
My only real question is how can we be all looking at the SC simultaneously?

View attachment 228267

But i think we need to understand and agree on a few things first

Fact 1 - Every time we are looking at the SC, we are facing south, regardless of orientation, elevation
Every time you are looking at dipper, you are facing north, regardless or orientation or elevation


View attachment 228269 View attachment 228270

Gary do u agree with this?
If yes ill continue my questioning
If no then explain why

Fair enough guys???

The big dipper is almost always straight above when I finally look for it. You do not have to face any direction to see it. Once you orient it and yourself to it, you follow where it is pointing, then you can look in that direction.

The Big Dipper is low in the northeast sky at nightfall, but it'll climb upward during the evening hours, to reach its high point for the night in the wee hours after midnight.

It seems that is not how the crux works for you. For us the big dipper rises and sets like the sun or moon.

 

[PC123]

Like I said, every time I look at the moon, I am facing south.

You asked for an explanation. Based on the facts, that was the explanation. You rejected the facts.

Now you claim the crux does not move in the sky, it only points in a different direction. If the crux does not move, then the south pole moves. Because the south pole cannot move on a BE, which is actually moving?

If you claim you are the only object moving, then how have you moved around crux 2 times in each day? It has pointed vertical both at noon and midnight. Does the southern hemisphere spin twice as fast as the rest of the earth?

I'm not making any assertions about what's moving...

You just made 3 huge false claims which I corrected... Address your errors first

Fact... Facing crux facing south. Always
Fact... The crux does not rise or set

These facts have been confirmed by my nightly observations...

Either u accept them or you accept the erroneous information you have been given

 

[surfer14]

I'm not making any assertions about what's moving...

You just made 3 huge false claims which I corrected... Address your errors first

Fact... Facing crux facing south. Always
Fact... The crux does not rise or set

These facts have been confirmed by my nightly observations...

Either u accept them or you accept the erroneous information you have been given

PC,

1. I would think that in Australia the crux wouldn't rise or set. But as you get farther north, then the crux would be lower and lower in the sky. I would think that it would appear to rise and set from that location? I've been to Peru a couple times and the Maldives. I saw the southern cross in both locations and I feel like it was lower in the sky when I was in the Maldives. Maldives are basically right on the equator. Where are you in Australia? It might be interesting to compare notes with someone near the equator.

2. I wonder if the confusion might be on a little bit of an autistic level. When you face the crux, you are always facing in a southerly direction. But only once per night would it be precisely south. This is because the crux points towards south. It is very close to true south, but not quite exact. So as the crux appears to rotate about that true south point, then it would only be exactly south when the crux is directly on top (or directly underneath) of that axis point. Right?

 

[Timtofly]

I'm not making any assertions about what's moving...

You just made 3 huge false claims which I corrected... Address your errors first

Fact... Facing crux facing south. Always
Fact... The crux does not rise or set

These facts have been confirmed by my nightly observations...

Either u accept them or you accept the erroneous information you have been given

I can only take your word for it. If the crux never moves in the sky, why does it point in different directions, 12 different angles in a 380° circle? Either the crux is only right twice a day, or it points in the wrong direction 22 out of 24 times. When it is pointing straight up how is that pointing at the SP the same as pointing straight down? When it ponts east and west at 3 and 9 where is the SP? Your point is the SP is out in space about a billion light years. My point is that is an optical illusion. The SP is the edge of the earth as in your drawings.


The crux orbits earth twice as fast as the sun. It rises and sets twice a day. It is on an orbit further south than your location. You are always facing in that general direction even if looking east or west.

Looking north east for the big dipper is not looking north. It is looking north east. After midnight is is directly above. That is looking up, not north.

I used the moon as comparison because it is a few more degrees higher than your observation of the crux. I am still facing south like you. The moon orbits earth faster than the sun, but notvas fast as the crux.

 

[Timtofly]

PC,

1. I would think that in Australia the crux wouldn't rise or set. But as you get farther north, then the crux would be lower and lower in the sky. I would think that it would appear to rise and set from that location? I've been to Peru a couple times and the Maldives. I saw the southern cross in both locations and I feel like it was lower in the sky when I was in the Maldives. Maldives are basically right on the equator. Where are you in Australia? It might be interesting to compare notes with someone near the equator.

2. I wonder if the confusion might be on a little bit of an autistic level. When you face the crux, you are always facing in a southerly direction. But only once per night would it be precisely south. This is because the crux points towards south. It is very close to true south, but not quite exact. So as the crux appears to rotate about that true south point, then it would only be exactly south when the crux is directly on top (or directly underneath) of that axis point. Right?

This will not settle the point made: how can one in Africa, one in SA, and he in Australia be seeing the same crux at the same time. The optical illusion is that it has it's own tiny orbit around an alledged singular point, obviously not on the horizon, but billions of light years out in space. One has to assume this singular point comes back to some point on the horizon. Which is physically impossible, and it would have to come back over head to the north pole. One is always facing up at a 25° angle. The pole could never drop below their viewpoint. It can only terminate at the north pole.

 

[PC123]

PC,

1. I would think that in Australia the crux wouldn't rise or set. But as you get farther north, then the crux would be lower and lower in the sky. I would think that it would appear to rise and set from that location?

Hi S14

That is correct.
Now, you can see the full southern cross on the horizon at 25 degrees north of the equator, briefly, at its 12 o'clock position...
Between 25 degrees north and 25 degrees south of the equator the crux can be seen rising at setting at certain times of the year.
South of 25 degrees from the equator it can be seen in the night sky all year round...

At the equator the dipper can only be seen for 6 months of the year because of earths tilt...
The same applies with the crux...

I've been to Peru a couple times and the Maldives. I saw the southern cross in both locations and I feel like it was lower in the sky when I was in the Maldives. Maldives are basically right on the equator.

Its elevation depends on the time of year and how far you are from the equator
Now as we approach our shortest day, the crux is high in the sky, which is why it can be seen from north of the equator now...
In summer it will be lower in the sky...

If you we're in Peru and Maldives in the same months, then BE says that it should appear lower in the Maldives.

Where are you in Australia?

Tasmania, that little island on the southern edge...

It might be interesting to compare notes with someone near the equator.

Iv done my best and thats mostly what i learnt they are seeing near the equator

2. I wonder if the confusion might be on a little bit of an autistic level. When you face the crux, you are always facing in a southerly direction. But only once per night would it be precisely south. This is because the crux points towards south. It is very close to true south, but not quite exact. So as the crux appears to rotate about that true south point, then it would only be exactly south when the crux is directly on top (or directly underneath) of that axis point. Right?

True. Check out the image

At this time of year i see the crux upright in the 12 o'clock position at 6pm. (pointing south, i would say)
At midnight it sits at 3 o'clock position (pointing east i would say)
At 6am it sits upside down at 6 o'clock position (pointing north i would say)

In south America its the opposite...
At 6pm they see the SC upside down in the 6 o'clock position
At midnight its at 9 o'clock position
At 6am its at upright at 12 o'clock position

I find the term "pointing" to be a problematic.
It always points to the SCP, that center point in the sky, but not always to compass south.
Thats why i use this wording, "when u face the crux, then you are facing south."

Also comparing one star, Polaris, to a constellation, the SC, isn't suitable which is why iv gone to using the dipper cos it spins in the sky as well

So, at midnight its laying 25 degrees from where your compass points south.
So to be precise you would be facing south south west.

Finding true south from here is easy, there are at least 2 methods one can use without the need for any equipment

One way is to use these two bright pointer stars like this

An easier way is like this. Its 4 times the length to the SCP

The FE guys are desperately trying to find an excuse in this 25 degrees when it still can't explain this


Southern cross being seen everywhere at the same time... It can't be both in front of me and behind me can it?
Their explanations are filled with erroneous claims...
And they don't accept my observations, preferring to believe FE propaganda instead.

This excuse used by Gary that my attitude has something to do with it is an absolute joke.
Fact is that he can't explain it and is cut up about it. He won't speak to me now all bitter and twisted.
Im here to drop science not nurse the emotions of people...


On a different note... How was Peru? Did u go and see many megaliths? They fascinate me those structures, all megaliths do...

 

[PC123]

I can only take your word for it. If the crux never moves in the sky, why does it point in different directions, 12 different angles in a 380° circle? Either the crux is only right twice a day, or it points in the wrong direction 22 out of 24 times. When it is pointing straight up how is that pointing at the SP the same as pointing straight down? When it ponts east and west at 3 and 9 where is the SP? Your point is the SP is out in space about a billion light years. My point is that is an optical illusion. The SP is the edge of the earth as in your drawings.

I never said the crux points to the south...
I never said it moves in the sky, refer to my diagrams, it clearly spins in the sky or the earth is spinning
It can point north south east or west... Just like the dipper does
The way it points has nothing to do with the following facts...

Every time you are facing crux, you are facing south...
Every time you are facing dipper, you are facing north...

Its the crux in the south night sky
The dipper is always in the north sky

The crux can be seen simultaneously to the south
The dipper can be seen simultaneously to the north

Nothing you have said changes this fact

So your saying this is some kind of optical illusion


Ok. I accept that explanation... I don't agree with it cos its physically impossible, but i accept it...
An optical illusion

 

[PC123]

This will not settle the point made: how can one in Africa, one in SA, and he in Australia be seeing the same crux at the same time. The optical illusion is that it has it's own tiny orbit around an alledged singular point, obviously not on the horizon, but billions of light years out in space. One has to assume this singular point comes back to some point on the horizon. Which is physically impossible, and it would have to come back over head to the north pole. One is always facing up at a 25° angle. The pole could never drop below their viewpoint. It can only terminate at the north pole.

FE cannot settle that point i made
"Its own tiny orbit"... Thats different to what FE says and makes no sense...
FE says there is only one orbit around the north star.

Im watching the crux to the south in front of me...
Brazilians are watching the crux to the south behind me...

And many others are watching it from all different angles... That 25 degrees doesn't not account for people seeing it behind me
The way it points, its orientation, its elevation are all irrelevant to this fact

Optical illusion is actually the only way one can explain it... An optical illusion that cannot be demonstrated
Its similar to what Moses said...

How about this then... On the FE model we should be able to see the dipper, but we can't...
Why not???

 

[surfer14]

On a different note... How was Peru? Did u go and see many megaliths? They fascinate me those structures, all megaliths do...

1. I absolutely see your point about the crux. This truly has put the nail in the coffin of that FE model for me.
2. I can't help but to like that GaryA guy. I think he's smart, but I think he's a little bit married to this FE thing. I'd have a ton of respect for him if he just said "I was wrong about that FE model." Sometimes when we invest so much into a certain thing, then it's hard to give it up even when you realize it's wrong.
3. Been to Peru twice. First time I did the typical tourist thing and saw Machu Picchu. I also got to hike up to Huayna Picchu, which is on the mountain in the background that you see in every classic picture of Machu Picchu. That was the highlight of the trip. Second time in Peru I was on a surf trip. Had a good time on both trips. But I've been on way better touristy type trips, and I've been on way better surf trips. So I won't be going back to Peru.

If you want a touristy trip and you haven't been there already, there is only one answer: Rome. Just go. Best trip ever! Without doubt.

 

[Dino246]

This will not settle the point made: how can one in Africa, one in SA, and he in Australia be seeing the same crux at the same time. The optical illusion is that it has it's own tiny orbit around an alledged singular point, obviously not on the horizon, but billions of light years out in space. One has to assume this singular point comes back to some point on the horizon. Which is physically impossible, and it would have to come back over head to the north pole. One is always facing up at a 25° angle. The pole could never drop below their viewpoint. It can only terminate at the north pole.

Stars which are in the South celestial hemisphere are never in the North celestial hemisphere, and vice-versa. The tilt of the Earth is stable, and the North Star is always effectively "up" from the North hemisphere of the Earth. Similarly, the Southern Cross is always "up" from the South hemisphere.

From PC123's diagrams and explanations, I suspect that the Southern Cross is useful to navigators in a different way than the North Star is. The latter's angle above horizontal always tells the observer their own latitude; at the North pole, the North star is at nadir (vertical); at 45 degrees North latitude, the North star is at 45 degrees to the horizontal, etc. That is only possible if the North star is sufficiently far away from Earth; a flat earth model where the stars are part of the "firmament" and only about 3,000 miles above the surface is unworkable, because the angle to horizontal at the equator would be about 26 degrees, not 0 degrees.

 

[PC123]

I can't help but to like that GaryA guy. I think he's smart

Ye me too. Thats why im a little disappointed in the way he handled himself here... He won't speak to me now
I was never rude to him, in fact i took the whole thing very seriously as i looked up every night, thinking about it for months
Now, to be honest, i feel like iv been fooled wasting all that time and taking it all so seriously

That reaction is one that iv coped from my sister my whole life... She would go cry go mum and dad, on purpose, and they would assume that i did something wrong... Its the way millennials debate these days... Whoever is most offended wins... Its rubbish, just cos your offended doesn't mean your right...
Eg Greta Thunburg, "oh shes so offended she must be right and we are evil to question her logic"

The legal system is the best way we know how to find truths outside of the bible...
And when its uncorrupted it works very efficiently...
You never see the barrister say "i don't like the attitude of the prosecution therefore i forfeit". You concede defeat by doing that
In fact, the prosecution always has an attitude and so does the defence council... Big attitudes

but I think he's a little bit married to this FE thing

True

I'd have a ton of respect for him if he just said "I was wrong about that FE model."

At least admit that you cannot explain this or that there may be an explanation beyond our knowledge like Moses and Tim have suggested.

Sometimes when we invest so much into a certain thing, then it's hard to give it up even when you realize it's wrong.

True

Been to Peru twice. First time I did the typical tourist thing and saw Machu Picchu. I also got to hike up to Huayna Picchu, which is on the mountain in the background that you see in every classic picture of Machu Picchu. That was the highlight of the trip. Second time in Peru I was on a surf trip. Had a good time on both trips. But I've been on way better touristy type trips, and I've been on way better surf trips. So I won't be going back to Peru.

Fair enough...
If you love to surf then Australia is on the map...

I can't surf... As soon as i jump onto my feet, im in the water. . Its frustrating cos im a good snowboarder and wakeboarder
Im unbalanced without bindings

If you want a touristy trip and you haven't been there already, there is only one answer: Rome. Just go. Best trip ever! Without doubt.

Rome, there is no surf there... LoL... ... Ah, my parents are Portuguese... Good surf there in Portugal.

All roads lead to Rome but... Everyone says its an awesome place to visit.
I haven't been yet but ive always had in mind to do a big tour of Europe in a motor home...
If im in Rome then i may as well visit the rest of Europe too. Start on one and and do a lap of it

 

[GaryA]

That's quite a big range, which would allow for some distance. But as I indicated before, even if I can't explain it, I'm not so worried, as there are more to the Heavens than we understand.

Optical illusion is actually the only way one can explain it... An optical illusion that cannot be demonstrated
Its similar to what Moses said...

For now - this is good enough for me...

 

[GaryA]

I'd have a ton of respect for him if he just said "I was wrong about that FE model."

You will have to settle for someone with a conscience and a willingness to ask questions - and make statements - in the face of unpopularity - for the sake of truth - saying that - by no means does he have everything figured out - nor can he explain anything-and-everything about it - yet, still - since truth is the most important thing - he has no intention of compromising it (truth) for comfort, convenience, or profit.

It takes a lot of time to consider the complexity of some things - especially if you want to be thorough about it...

And - no - I am not "married to it"...

It is significant in representing truth-in-reality - and is worth considering.

 

[GaryA]

At least admit that you cannot explain this or that there may be an explanation beyond our knowledge like Moses and Tim have suggested.

Again - this is agreeable...

 

[GaryA]

Thats why im a little disappointed in the way he handled himself here... He won't speak to me now

Why should I want to talk to you when all you do is make "crap talk" about me?

I am not angry, bitter, or any of that stuff you said - and, you do not realize how things have been going IRL for me the past few weeks.

You assume way too much.

You would do well to stop it.

The more of that crap you fill up the thread with, the less respect I have for you. And, the less likely I will want to volunteer any of my time wading through the cesspool of your dumping grounds.

"Just sayin'..."

 

[PC123]

Why should I want to talk to you when all you do is make "crap talk" about me?

I am not angry, bitter, or any of that stuff you said - and, you do not realize how things have been going IRL for me the past few weeks.

You assume way too much.

You would do well to stop it.

The more of that crap you fill up the thread with, the less respect I have for you. And, the less likely I will want to volunteer any of my time wading through the cesspool of your dumping grounds.

"Just sayin'..."

Cmon man... I never spoke crap about u before u complained about my attitude. Did I?

My attitude did change after u made that erroneous claim. I was always respectful before that. Perhaps u mistook some of my humour... Aussie humour... We pick on each other all the time, ask any Aussie

U can see how silly I get with the memes I post About serious stuff like covid... I have my serious side and my silly side... I'll deteriorate without my silly side so I'll tend to make light of serious stuff when I can, including myself...

Also it's hard to gauge someone's mood by reading their words... I try and avoid that

Anyway I'm glad to hear that my speculation about u being bitter was wrong anyway...

God bless

 

[PC123]

@GaryA

Like when I was saying "I hear by denounce" I was playing... U can't actually denounce stuff in science cos u don't know what the next discovery will be...

Or when I told u to repeat something 100 times a day... That's a joke man

Or when I said "u can't handle the truth" or called u a cowboy. Thats funny. Texas. Cowboy. Get it? It's a joke man. That's not offensive. Cmon now. John Wayne. Six shooters...

The bearded cowboy I think I called ya. That's funny man...

Look ask @Moses_Young...
Tell him about Aussie humour pls...
I think his taken some if my banter to heart... How silly are we sometimes? And how much stick do we give each other? All in good fun

 

[Moses_Young]

For now - this is good enough for me...

We were right about Coronahoax Gary. Now the rest of the world has finally caught up. We were right about the martial law that was coming (lockdowns). We're also right about Flat Earth. Eventually the disbelievers will catch up, whether in this life or the next.

 

[Dino246]

We were right about Coronahoax Gary. Now the rest of the world has finally caught up. We were right about the martial law that was coming (lockdowns). We're also right about Flat Earth. Eventually the disbelievers will catch up, whether in this life or the next.

You’re wrong about the shape of the Earth. You’re also wrong about Covid-19 being a hoax. Further, being right about one thing is no proof that you’re right about anything else; that’s called a non sequitur.