By Nature Children of Wrath as others !
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Yet you waste your time saying you won't answer. Interesting.
I have loads of questions..
What do you mean by 'God's wrath'?
You mean the wages and consequences of sin?
Do you think the cursing of the ground and the burden of Adam are His wrath?
How about the flood, was that His wrath? If the flood is His wrath, has His wrath been shown again ever since? Sodom and Gomorrah, was that His wrath?
What are you calling wrath, that you say all believers have been spared from, even when they were not believers?
Do you even believe that any believer was at one time not a believer?
How about if you lie and your sin finds you out, is that God's wrath or is it just rhw wages of your sin? Or is the wages of sin God's wrath? Would sin not have consequences if not for God being wrathful about it? Or does sin necessarily have consequences? Do Christians have no consequences for their sin?
I have loads of questions..
What do you mean by 'God's wrath'?
You mean the wages and consequences of sin?
Do you think the cursing of the ground and the burden of Adam are His wrath?
How about the flood, was that His wrath? If the flood is His wrath, has His wrath been shown again ever since? Sodom and Gomorrah, was that His wrath?
What are you calling wrath, that you say all believers have been spared from, even when they were not believers?
Do you even believe that any believer was at one time not a believer?
How about if you lie and your sin finds you out, is that God's wrath or is it just rhw wages of your sin? Or is the wages of sin God's wrath? Would sin not have consequences if not for God being wrathful about it? Or does sin necessarily have consequences? Do Christians have no consequences for their sin?
.
The origin of humanity's wrath-worthy nature is interesting.
There was a time when I was sure that the chemistry of the forbidden fruit
had something to do with it; but now I seriously doubt it because the woman
was the first to eat the fruit, and when she did, nothing happened. She
remained just as shameless in the buff as before. It wasn't till Adam tasted
the fruit that the woman began to feel exposed; so I'm pretty sure that the
underlying cause is far more serious than the chemistry of that fruit.
At the same time, I was sure that the wrath-worthy nature was transmitted
to children by means of their biological fathers. But whence did Eve get it?
She was constructed of material taken from Adam's body, but that was
before he tasted the fruit so he couldn't transmit the nature to her by means
of heredity.
Ruling out Adam, and ruling out the fruit; we're left with two alternatives:
either God did it to them or the Serpent did it. My money is on the Serpent,
a.k.a. the Devil (Rev 20:2)
He has the power of death (Heb 2:14) and the ability to tamper with the
human body and the human mind in ways not easily detected; e.g. Luke
13:16, Mark 5:1-5, and Eph 2:2.
The Serpent was apparently all set and ready to wield his power the moment
that Adam crossed the line and ate that fruit. It amazes me how quickly it
takes effect. Soon after Adam tasted the fruit, he and his wife both
immediately set to work cobbling together some rudimentary aprons to
cover up their pelvic areas.
I really have to hand it to the Serpent; he's very good at shifting blame
away from himself. For quite a few years now it's been traditional to believe
biological fathers propagate the fallen nature; when it's been the Serpent all
along.
How he has managed to deceive so many people for so long a time I don't
know, but what's really ironic about it is that there are people behind pulpits,
and chairing whole Sunday school departments, helping him do it as
unsuspecting accomplices; which goes to show that if an idea is repeated
often enough, widely enough, and loud enough by people held in high
regard; pretty soon it's accepted by the masses as fact without thought or
question.
A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong;
Gives it a superficial appearance of being right.[/size]
( Thomas Paine )
FAQ: When does the Serpent go to work on people. . . in the womb or out of
the womb?
A: Adam and his wife demonstrate that it can be done on adults, but I'm
guessing that for most of us it's in the womb. (Ps 51:5 & 58:3)
_
The origin of humanity's wrath-worthy nature is interesting.
There was a time when I was sure that the chemistry of the forbidden fruit
had something to do with it; but now I seriously doubt it because the woman
was the first to eat the fruit, and when she did, nothing happened. She
remained just as shameless in the buff as before. It wasn't till Adam tasted
the fruit that the woman began to feel exposed; so I'm pretty sure that the
underlying cause is far more serious than the chemistry of that fruit.
At the same time, I was sure that the wrath-worthy nature was transmitted
to children by means of their biological fathers. But whence did Eve get it?
She was constructed of material taken from Adam's body, but that was
before he tasted the fruit so he couldn't transmit the nature to her by means
of heredity.
Ruling out Adam, and ruling out the fruit; we're left with two alternatives:
either God did it to them or the Serpent did it. My money is on the Serpent,
a.k.a. the Devil (Rev 20:2)
He has the power of death (Heb 2:14) and the ability to tamper with the
human body and the human mind in ways not easily detected; e.g. Luke
13:16, Mark 5:1-5, and Eph 2:2.
The Serpent was apparently all set and ready to wield his power the moment
that Adam crossed the line and ate that fruit. It amazes me how quickly it
takes effect. Soon after Adam tasted the fruit, he and his wife both
immediately set to work cobbling together some rudimentary aprons to
cover up their pelvic areas.
I really have to hand it to the Serpent; he's very good at shifting blame
away from himself. For quite a few years now it's been traditional to believe
biological fathers propagate the fallen nature; when it's been the Serpent all
along.
How he has managed to deceive so many people for so long a time I don't
know, but what's really ironic about it is that there are people behind pulpits,
and chairing whole Sunday school departments, helping him do it as
unsuspecting accomplices; which goes to show that if an idea is repeated
often enough, widely enough, and loud enough by people held in high
regard; pretty soon it's accepted by the masses as fact without thought or
question.
A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong;
Gives it a superficial appearance of being right.[/size]
( Thomas Paine )
FAQ: When does the Serpent go to work on people. . . in the womb or out of
the womb?
A: Adam and his wife demonstrate that it can be done on adults, but I'm
guessing that for most of us it's in the womb. (Ps 51:5 & 58:3)
_
.
Getting back to the wrath-worthy nature spoken of in Eph 2:1-3
• Gen 3:8-10 . . The man and his wife hid from Yhvh God among the trees of
the garden. Yhvh God called out to the man and said to him: He replied: I
heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked,
so I hid.
Adam wasn't totally disrobed; only partially. But even that degree of undress
lacked adequate propriety in his own personal moral perception.
• Gen 3:11 . .Then He asked: Who told you that you were naked?
In other words: who said undress is indecent? Where'd you get that idea?
Well; nobody had said undress is indecent, nor even suggested that it's
indecent. The concept of a dress code was unheard of at that time. No;
Adam just "felt" indecent. In other words; all of a sudden Adam's intuition
was telling him that his appearance was unacceptable.
• Gen 3:22 . . And the Lord God said: Now that Man has become as one of
us, discerning good and evil.
The problem is; this newly acquired conscience of theirs wasn't from God, it
was obtained from the Serpent. As such, humanity's sense of right and
wrong is unreliable. Due to its satanic nature rather than truly divine, the
human moral compass easily deviates from true north by means of
emotional, social, cultural, political, and ethnical influences.
NOTE: Humanity was created in the image and likeness of its creator. But
humanity's construction stopped short of "one of us". i.e. an independent,
self-sustaining existence.
The Serpent promised Eve that she could improve her status and become
a deity by eating the forbidden fruit; which was true; she became a deity
alright, but she failed to become divine.
It's readily seen to be fairly easy to make one's self a deity; it's only
necessary to resist control, i.e. rebel against constituted authority; viz: go
your own way instead of complying with the laws, rules, and dictates of a
higher power; viz: anarchy. (cf. Judg 17:6 and Isa 53:6)
_
Getting back to the wrath-worthy nature spoken of in Eph 2:1-3
• Gen 3:8-10 . . The man and his wife hid from Yhvh God among the trees of
the garden. Yhvh God called out to the man and said to him: He replied: I
heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked,
so I hid.
Adam wasn't totally disrobed; only partially. But even that degree of undress
lacked adequate propriety in his own personal moral perception.
• Gen 3:11 . .Then He asked: Who told you that you were naked?
In other words: who said undress is indecent? Where'd you get that idea?
Well; nobody had said undress is indecent, nor even suggested that it's
indecent. The concept of a dress code was unheard of at that time. No;
Adam just "felt" indecent. In other words; all of a sudden Adam's intuition
was telling him that his appearance was unacceptable.
• Gen 3:22 . . And the Lord God said: Now that Man has become as one of
us, discerning good and evil.
The problem is; this newly acquired conscience of theirs wasn't from God, it
was obtained from the Serpent. As such, humanity's sense of right and
wrong is unreliable. Due to its satanic nature rather than truly divine, the
human moral compass easily deviates from true north by means of
emotional, social, cultural, political, and ethnical influences.
NOTE: Humanity was created in the image and likeness of its creator. But
humanity's construction stopped short of "one of us". i.e. an independent,
self-sustaining existence.
The Serpent promised Eve that she could improve her status and become
a deity by eating the forbidden fruit; which was true; she became a deity
alright, but she failed to become divine.
It's readily seen to be fairly easy to make one's self a deity; it's only
necessary to resist control, i.e. rebel against constituted authority; viz: go
your own way instead of complying with the laws, rules, and dictates of a
higher power; viz: anarchy. (cf. Judg 17:6 and Isa 53:6)
_
I could not pass this by!
Where do you get these ideas from? They are certainly not Biblical. So you believe God's Elect is the Lord Jesus Christ? Let's see how well that idea holds up in Scripture:
Mat 24:22 And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. So you believe this means for Jesus Christ's sake those days will be shortened?
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. So if possible, even Jesus Christ would be lead astray.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. So how does your idea work out in this verse? Let's see, "And He shall send...", so Jesus Christ shall send His angels to gather together Himself from the four winds. God Forbid.
Finally, this verse shows just how ludicrous your statement is when you said: "I believe God's Elect is the Lord Jesus Christ."
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sake, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Where do you get these ideas from? They are certainly not Biblical. So you believe God's Elect is the Lord Jesus Christ? Let's see how well that idea holds up in Scripture:
Mat 24:22 And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. So you believe this means for Jesus Christ's sake those days will be shortened?
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. So if possible, even Jesus Christ would be lead astray.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. So how does your idea work out in this verse? Let's see, "And He shall send...", so Jesus Christ shall send His angels to gather together Himself from the four winds. God Forbid.
Finally, this verse shows just how ludicrous your statement is when you said: "I believe God's Elect is the Lord Jesus Christ."
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sake, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
The point is this. Even though the propitiation for sins is for the whole world, one is only saved when he believes., meaning that he only takes the advantage of the propitiation of sins at the time he believes. So, if before he believed, he was wallowing in sins or dining with the devil, he was subject to the wrath of God like other sinners. The fact that Jesus died for the whole world does not mean that the wrath of God ceases to descend on men who hold the truth of God in unrighteousness.
The elect /chosen for me are those who choose to worship God in Spirit and in truth.
The elect /chosen for me are those who choose to worship God in Spirit and in truth.