Are WOMEN Pastors Biblical??

[Sipsey]

Okay. So what's your stance on women pastors as it relates to the commands of Paul as he laid down the order of the Church?

I really don’t have the time or inclination to post a simple answer without its defense, which would be required.

 

[cv5]

I really don’t have the time or inclination to post a simple answer without its defense, which would be required.

A simple answer is fine. I'm really not looking for some sort of long-winded defense I've heard too many as it is. In fact lately I went through 4-5 hours of a thorough comprehensive exegesis by MacArthur on the matter, which included every single solitary woman in the entire Bible having any bearing on the matter whatsoever.

 

[Aidan1]

I see many on both sides of this debate hinging their arguments on a single or a few words. I was taught by a seminary trained fellow that used the ICE method of study and it precludes accepting any Biblical doctrine on the basis of simple exegesis, it is rather the context as it relates the the entire Word of God. I occasionally revisit some of the more debated topics in Modern Christianity and this “Women Pastor” issue seems to be one that is ever growing.

Knowing the Greek and Hebrew behind the verses is great. Often exegesis of a passage can connect some dots not otherwise seen, and sometimes, the translation is spot on. The problem is that no passage of Scripture sits in isolation. God, in His wisdom, has got His messages across in many ways over thousands of years and now it’s in book form for all to read. Ive seen children typify the real meaning of prayer and understanding of Gods’ love better than most theologians. I suggest that many of us are made arrogant by our perceived wisdom. If our wisdom is not from God, it is like the righteousness spoken of by Isaiah; Its not “Filthy,” it’s DEAD.

Thats correct, also we have to consider, that the Verse ( 1206 Stephen Langton NT Chapter and Robert Estienne 1551 NT Vers and Chapter of the NT are manmade.

 

[cv5]

Thats correct, also we have to consider, that the Verse ( 1206 Stephen Langton NT Chapter and Robert Estienne 1551 NT Vers and Chapter of the NT are manmade.

Please elaborate. You lost me there. Which chapter and verses?

 

[Major]

Well you follow the word which states that women must stay silent, I follow the word which states that women may preach and pray, this is the creme de le creme, none of us could wish for better, Jesus primarily was a preacher of the gospel, so were the apostles.

On his way up to Jerusalem Paul lodged with Phillip who had 4 daughters who were prophetesses, ya think Paul told them to say silent?

Again......YOU have not read my posts. YOU are placing words into my mouth so as to make yourself look better. YOU ARE WRONG!!!!

IF you will take the time to read through this thread sir, you will see that I have said exactly the opposite.

I have said that women can and should PRAY in the church.
I have said that women should teach in the church.
I have said that women should be involved in the church in ALL phases.
I have said to YOU twice that we have a woman music minister with a masters degree in music from Stetson University.
I have said twice to you that we as a church have as our treasurer a woman who is also a bank president.

Why don't you spend the time posting nonsense and untruth's into actually reading what is posted?????????????

I have also said what GOD SAID and that is women should not be in authority of the man and can not be ordained as a Deacon/Pastor.

 

[Major]

You are right about "tis" being anyone. However there is no word "he" in verse 4 in 1 Tim 3.

"τοῦ ἰδίου οἴκου καλῶς προϊστάμενον, τέκνα ἔχοντα ἐν ὑποταγῇ μετὰ πάσης σεμνότητος·" 1Tim 3:4

The word for "he" is autos, αὐτος. There is no autos or αὐτος in verse 4 above. It simply is not in the passage. Stop trying to prove only men can be pastors, when it says that no where in the Bible, or that women cannot be pastors, which it does not say anywhere in the Bible.

Your verses have completely frayed- they do not in any way prove that only men can be pastors. You better look for some other verses to support your very weak thesis, because 1 Tim 3:1-4 are not "proof" texts for your wrong assumptions. No matter how hard you try to make it fit your theory.

Thank you for the information.

#1 and foremost......I have no thesis whatsoever Angela. I simply read the Scripture. and I posted it. WHere in any post did I say that this is MY THESIS???????

Now is there a Greek word in verse #2 of 1 Tim. 3 that means......."HUSBAND"?

Now.....reading and understanding OLY what YOU have provide of you vast knowledge of the Greek language and from the wealth of the professor you studied under and remembering that I am nothing but an old country boy from Alabama who had to do the Greek study 50 years ago to get his degree......allow me to ask YOU to please answer this question.

Lets read it together shall we.

1 Timothy 3:12.....
"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach".

There is no controversy with the interpretation of the phrase in this passage, meaning that the husband should have only one wife.

From your extensive knowledge of the Greek language....what is the Greek word of HUSBAND in this Scripture???? Is in not the word "ANER"?????

Is it not also then true that The word translated "husband" in 1 Timothy 3:2 is the Greek word "aner" which means man.

Is there then ANY reason to give it a different meaning in 1 Timothy 3:2 other than YOU are a woman and that is what you want the Scripture to say??????

 

[Major]

I see you didn't read one word of what I wrote about this verse in 1 Tim 3, NOT saying this in the original Greek language. You really are in teachable, aren't you?

YOU Angela have made this thread a personal, confrontational issue, haven't you.

YOU are a woman, YOU do not like what God said and since He is not here to respond to YOU, you come at me with petulant, challenging comments.

As for being teachable......I would say that I am very teachable....., I am speaking to you through a computer aren't I?????
Do you thin I woke up one day and just turned it one?

when it is the truth of God's Word, I am open to be taught! Gods Word does not seem to be what you are referring to.
You are talking about what YOU want not what God said. How can you teach that????

If you would like to tone down your aggressive confrontational attitude, we might be able to have a conversation......
but to till that happens.

 

[Aidan1]

Please elaborate. You lost me there. Which chapter and verses?

From the NT, the verses and chapter we have today were given from Robert Estienne 1551

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

Well you follow the word which states that women must stay silent, I follow the word which states that women may preach and pray, this is the creme de le creme, none of us could wish for better, Jesus primarily was a preacher of the gospel, so were the apostles.

On his way up to Jerusalem Paul lodged with Phillip who had 4 daughters who were prophetesses, ya think Paul told them to say silent?

For women to "keep silence" in church mean that they do not preach. It doesn't mean they have to sit in literal silence. We live by the appearance of the doctrines handed down to us from God.

1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

In the world, men represent God and women represent man. That is the appearance we have in the world of the above cited doctrine.

1 Corinthians 11:8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.

Again, in this temporal world, the appearance of man is to be the image of God and for women to be the image of man.

Actually, the whole chapter of 1 Corinthians 11 is teaching this important doctrine.

When Paul demands women keep silence in church, he very much tells us why.

I have underscored a couple of things below.

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

Keeping the appearance of the doctrine of 1 Corinthians 11:7, weigh the following:

1. What is meant by confusion? Can you rely on the authority of doctrine coming from your fellow man the same as you can with it coming from God? Yes or no?

2. Is man not by law commanded to be under obedience?

3. Why would it be a shame for women to speak in church? Would you rather lean from the mouth of God or the mouth of your fellow corrupt man?

4. Did the word of God come to us or did it come to us from our fellow man?

5. Did the shepherd lay down his life for the flock or did one of the flock do it?

6. Does the shepherd seek the lost astray sheep or does one of the other flock do it?

7. Who opens the gate in and out of pasture for the flock? The shepherd or does one of the flock do that?

It's all about keeping up appearances so people can see and understand good doctrine and not be confused or confounded.

 

[Dino246]

For women to "keep silence" in church mean that they do not preach. It doesn't mean they have to sit in literal silence.

Given that the admonishment is around asking questions, it is illogical to conclude that it means that women many not preach.

1 Corinthians 11:8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.

"However, in the Lord..." (v. 11).

2. Is man not by law commanded to be under obedience?

Is he? Where?

3. Why would it be a shame for women to speak in church? Would you rather lean from the mouth of God or the mouth of your fellow corrupt man?

Why indeed would it be a shame for women to speak in the church? Since you are advocating that you need to answer the question.

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

Given that the admonishment is around asking questions, it is illogical to conclude that it means that women many not preach.


"However, in the Lord..." (v. 11).


Is he? Where?


Why indeed would it be a shame for women to speak in the church? Since you are advocating that you need to answer the question.

Before a fruitless argument ensues, can I ask if you understood the (what I'll call) "appearance" doctrine of 1 Corinthians 11:7 is? Because if we aren't on the same page about that, then you and I will have to respectfully disagree. Period.

 

[cv5]

From the NT, the verses and chapter we have today were given from Robert Estienne 1551

Sorry....what verses and chapers. Be specific.

 

[Aidan1]

Sorry....what verses and chapers. Be specific.

The NT before 1551 had only chapter, but now numbering of the verses.
The chapters of the NT were given in the 5th century and later renewed in the 13th century.

 

[Dino246]

Before a fruitless argument ensues, can I ask if you understood the (what I'll call) "appearance" doctrine of 1 Corinthians 11:7 is? Because if we aren't on the same page about that, then you and I will have to respectfully disagree. Period.

I re-read it, and I don't understand what you mean by it. Please explain.

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

I re-read it, and I don't understand what you mean by it. Please explain.

Underscoring is mine.

1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

In terms of head covering, that's an outward physical sign of the covering of sins. Since a man (male) is the "image" and glory of God, he needs no outward sign showing covering of sins, because there is no sin in God.

The woman (female) is the image of man (mankind) and man has sin and needs covering in Christ.

Now, you can follow that logic to the subject at hand which is why God expressly commands through Paul that women (image of mankind) not hold power, authority and a voice teaching spiritual matters in the church. The word came from God to man. So, male clergy properly exemplify this sign and women sitting in congregations learning, not teaching, properly exemplify the sign of the word coming from God to mankind.

 

[cv5]

Underscoring is mine.

1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

In terms of head covering, that's an outward physical sign of the covering of sins. Since a man (male) is the "image" and glory of God, he needs no outward sign showing covering of sins, because there is no sin in God.

The woman (female) is the image of man (mankind) and man has sin and needs covering in Christ.

Now, you can follow that logic to the subject at hand which is why God expressly commands through Paul that women (image of mankind) not hold power, authority and a voice teaching spiritual matters in the church. The word came from God to man. So, male clergy properly exemplify this sign and women sitting in congregations learning, not teaching, properly exemplify the sign of the word coming from God to mankind.

Very interesting insight and perspective thanks for posting. It is posts like this that are worth the price of admission......

 

[JerryInBoston]

It is not my intention to cause an argument or division among the faithful with that question just discussion in a Christian and civil manner.

I have always simply posted the Word of God as it is written. I post this question in order to properly attempt to teach the Word of God....PEROID!

1 Timothy 3:1-2.........
"This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach".

According to the written Word of God, a Pastor can only be a "Male/Man".

Now, before anyone argues that point or disagree with me, remember that the "One" who said..."In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" also was the "One" who said......
"if a "MAN" desire the office of a bishop".

The old Major did not have anything whatsoever to do with what Jesus Christ placed into the Word of God. The old Major just reads it and accepts it as it is written so your disagreements will be with Christ and not me!!!!

Now the question must be WHY would God do that?

1 Timothy 2:13-14 .....
"For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

It’s important to understand that Paul does not prohibit women from teaching in all contexts (Titus 2:3; Acts 18:25-26), only from teaching the Bible to men in the church.

Notice that Paul prohibits women from doing two distinct things.

1.
Women may not teach the Bible to men in the church.
2.
Women may not exercise authority over men in the church.

Teaching and exercising authority in the church are the two primary responsibilities of elders, pastors, or bishops. Thus, women are not to hold the office of pastor, but neither are they to perform these particular functions of a pastor over men in the church.

Again, for the inquisitive minds the question is still...WHY is that the case.

I will give you what I think is the reason behinds God's direction.

1.
The creation order is the first reason Paul gives for prohibiting women from teaching or exercising authority in the church.
Paul doesn’t ground his command in cultural considerations or a particular problem with the women in the Ephesian church. Rather, he grounds his command in creation. He says that the reason women are not to teach or exercise authority over men in the church is that....
“Adam was formed first, then Eve”. Paul means that God established Adam as the head and authority of his wife, Eve. God designed men to lead.

2.
The nature of women is the second reason Paul gives for prohibiting them from teaching or exercising authority in the church.
Paul says, “Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor” (1 Tim 2:14). Paul is saying something about the natural constitution of men and women, that men as a class are naturally more fitted to teach and have authority in the church, but women are not.
Dr. Wayne Grudem says, “This is by far the most common viewpoint in the history of the interpretation of this passage” (Evangelical Feminism & Biblical Truth 70).

Thyatira had a woman teacher, and Jesus called her a Jezebel. God's order is clear: man is to lead the teaching in the assembly. Women have a role, but it is not teaching or preaching to men.

 

[Dino246]

Underscoring is mine.

1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

In terms of head covering, that's an outward physical sign of the covering of sins. Since a man (male) is the "image" and glory of God, he needs no outward sign showing covering of sins, because there is no sin in God.

The woman (female) is the image of man (mankind) and man has sin and needs covering in Christ.

Now, you can follow that logic to the subject at hand which is why God expressly commands through Paul that women (image of mankind) not hold power, authority and a voice teaching spiritual matters in the church. The word came from God to man. So, male clergy properly exemplify this sign and women sitting in congregations learning, not teaching, properly exemplify the sign of the word coming from God to mankind.

Now, explain all that in light of verse 11, which contrasts the previous passage by opening with, "However, in the Lord...".

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

Now, explain all that in light of verse 11, which contrasts the previous passage by opening with, "However, in the Lord...".

I don't think it contrasts at all. If anything, the passages you're referring to:

Corinthians 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

Explain that men and women, mankind, are both temporal, fallen beings because both sinned. It is only the "image" and the propriety of exemplifying that "image doctrine" that prohibits women from being in authority in church.

 

[CS1]

It read Hebrew well, and I have read a number of OT books in Hebrew. But I like Greek better, because I like to read the NT mostly.

So don't worry yourself over silly things like that. You can assume most people who read Greek, probably can read some Hebrew. It was required in my seminary, although many seminaries are dropping the language requirements, which I don't approve of, but, I can see the point. Learning languages can be hard, and not being able to understand them should not hold back a pastor from preaching, teaching and caring for the flock.

not worried a bit.