50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[lamad]

Agreed. THAT kind of "bow" aka "the battle bow" (its last 3 occurrences in the OT)


...and when you consider that the "4 living creatures" are described in the SAME WAY that the "4-directional plotment" of Israel is described in the OT (so, concerning "earthly-located" matters), but interestingly enough, also specific "time-stamp-related" things (each of the "4 living creatures," that is);

... and when you consider that this is when Jesus will 'STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev5:9 etc;

...and when you consider that 5:6 states "seven Spirits of God HAVING BEEN SENT [PERFECT participle] out into/unto all the earth" can just as easily mean, FOLLOWING "our Rapture / THE Departure";

...and when you consider that "kings went [/go] out to battle" at a VERY SPECIFIC point-in-time/date (in Scripture), think: Jesus in Rev19, then counting back precisely "2520 days," one can see that the Rev5:6 "context"/setting ("[saw IN THE MIDST of the throne and of the 4 living creatures and IN THE MIDST of the elders (i.e. UP IN Heaven)] a Lamb STANDING as HAVING BEEN SLAIN [PERFECT participle]...") is also pinpointing a particular calendar date [but not back in "32ad," see ])





--way too much more to say about this topic... but as you can see, I remain unconvinced of your viewpoint that the SEALS have been unfolding since the first century. No.



[BTW, I *disagree* that the "a great multitude... of all the nations" (Rev7:9,14) coming out of "THE GREAT tribulation" (i.e. the SECOND HALF of the 7 yrs) are "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... NO. Disagree!]

...and when you consider that the "4 living creatures" are described in the SAME WAY that the "4-directional plotment" of Israel

What does this have to do with the first seal sealing a book?

... and when you consider that this is when Jesus will 'STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev5:9 etc;

Sorry, but Rev. 5:9 is not about "judging" at that time. The time of judging is not until the 6th seal is opened.

Remember, the church age martyrs, seal 5 are ASKING about the time of judgment - but they are told they most wait for the final church age martyr - killed as they were - as church age martyrs. And the very next thing John wrote was the 6th seal start of judgment. Keep in mind, after the rapture (Between the 5th and 6th seals) Jesus will not return until chapter 19. Every trumpet is a judgment and every vial is a judgment. No one can prove the seals are judgments.

when you consider that 5:6 states "seven Spirits of God HAVING BEEN SENT [PERFECT participle] out into/unto all the earth" can just as easily mean, FOLLOWING "our Rapture / THE Departure";

Not IN CONTEXT. It seems you ignore context too frequently. Anyone can make the bible say anything - even a posttrib rapture - if they are willing to pull verses out of context.

What you are missing:

Jesus NOT FOUND worthy in a search John watched for one worthy to open the seals.

Are you just going to ignore this because it doesn't fit anywhere in your theory? WHY was Jesus not found here? That is a question Jesus asked me. How would you answer if He asked YOU? If you follow the context, there can be only one right answer.

Revelation 5:5
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

What did Jesus prevail over that no other man ever has? The answer is, He rose from the dead to become the Redeemer.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

He was slain for our sins. He rose from the dead to finish the redemption plan and become worthy to take the book. Without a doubt, written on the outside of the book was a statement that to be worthy one had to become the Redeemer.

A question not yet asked: God, why have you included this in a book about future events? I can answer that because I asked Him.
1. It shows TIMING.
2. It shows the passing of TIME.
3. It shows us HOW God will evict Satan as the god of this world, and give earth back to Jesus Christ who created it.

The BOOK contains the trumpets and it is the trumpets that will finally defeat Satan.

Before the Holy Spirit could be sent down (for the day of Pentecost) first Jesus had to ascend. And that is just what John is showing us here: Jesus on earth, then Jesus not found, then Jesus risen and found, then Jesus ascended and finally Jesus sending the Holy Spirit down. My friend, this is not future, it is HISTORY.

It is really very simple: God wanted to show John the BOOK, but chose to start while the book was still in the Father's hand - before Jesus ascended and took the book.

also pinpointing a particular calendar date [but not back in "32ad," see ])

Do you frequently pull verses out of context? Anyone can make the bible say anything doing that. What if you were one of the first readers of John's book: AD 95?

You can ignore the text and imagine all you want. You will be wrong. You must follow the context. Points John made that you are ignoring:
WHY was Jesus not seen at the right hand of the Father?
WHY Was the holy Spirit in the throne room in this vision?
WHY was "no man found?"

Until you can answer these correctly, you will never understand the part of John's vision.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

A crown was given him. This was a stephanos of victor's crown, "a prize in the public games " says Strong's, and Paul as he talked about those "striving for mastery." It was also used for Jesus' crown of thorns. Would GOD award this crown to the Beast? This is a book of revealing. God colored the Beast as fiery red. The beast ends up dead. I don't think a victor's crown fits him.

Well, tell that to the [5th Trumpet (MID-point of trib)] characters, of whom it is stated:

"7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns [stephanoi / stephanos - G4735 -- SAME WORD] like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. 8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. 9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. 10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails [comp. Isa9:15 - "The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail."]: and their power was to hurt men five months. 11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter."



Why do "victors' crowns" fit these dudes/creatures/locusts (when they are on the 'WRONG side') ?? [my view: it's not a good argument]




[my view is that these are (certain) "persons" being demonically energized... rather than being some kind of "insect," if you will]

 

[Truth7t7]

Not even close man.....

Zechariah 14:16-17
And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.

It is entirely likely that Jesus, at his Second Coming is going to terraform and uplift the entire region to create a new mountain above all other mountains.

Isa. 2:1–3
The word that Isaiah, the son of Amoz, saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lᴏʀᴅ’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lᴏʀᴅ, to the house of the God of Jacob.

Mic 4:1–2.
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lᴏʀᴅ shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills, and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob

You do realize that the entire holy district is 50 X 50 miles?

And the Millennial Temple itself dwarfs the Zerubbabel Temple, which was no larger than the Solomonic temple, and far far smaller than the Herodian temple. The Millennial temple is 500 reeds or about 5000 feet per side. Absolutely enormous.

Was Ezekiel exaggerating? Delusional? Or speaking of the glorious Millennial Temple?

As scripture "Clearly Teaches" Ezekiel received the vision in the 25th year in the Babylonian Captivity, he was instructed to show this vision to the house of Israel (In The Captivity)

In Ezekiel 43:10 The House of Israel (In The Captivity) Are Shown The Temple, And Measure The Pattern, And Are Instructed To Keep The Ordinances.

How could anybody claim this represents a (Future) Temple that's been almost 3,000 years and waiting

The Temple Seen is the 2nd Zerubbabel Temple built in 536BC after the Jews returned to Jerusalem from the Babylonian Captivity, it was destroyed by the Roman's in 70AD

Ezekiel 40:1-4KJV
In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the Lord was upon me, and brought me thither.
2 In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south.
3 And he brought me thither, and, behold, there was a man, whose appearance was like the appearance of brass, with a line of flax in his hand, and a measuring reed; and he stood in the gate.
4 And the man said unto me, Son of man, behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears, and set thine heart upon all that I shall shew thee; for to the intent that I might shew them unto thee art thou brought hither: declare all that thou seest to the house of Israel.

Ezekiel 43:10-11KJV
10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

 

[lamad]

@lamad , [re: current train of discussion]


[quoting old post]

2Th2:3b-9a is covering the entire 7-yr period, just like Dan9:27a/b/c is... its "BEGINNING," its "MIDDLE," *and* its "END" (all three! In each passage!)

The "he,he,he" of Dan9:27[26b] IS the "who, who, who" of 2Th2:3-9a ('whose/who/whom'); so that:

--2Th2:9a/8a = its/his "BEGINNING" ("whose COMING/ARRIVAL/ADVENT/PRESENCE/parousia") [Dan9:27a(26b); Matt24:4/Mk13:5; Rev6:2];

--2Th2:4 = its/his "MIDDLE" ("who OPPOSETH/EXALTETH/SITTETH") [Dan9:27b; Matt24:15/Dan12:11; Rev13:5-7/Dan7:20-25]

--2Th2:8b = its/his "END" ("whom the Lord SHALL CONSUME...SHALL DESTROY") [Dan9:27c; Matt24:29-31; Rev19]



V.8a is the man of sin's ARRIVAL... v.8b is his END (7 yrs apart). So that v.8b is saying, this is the guy He WILL destroy (IDENTIFYING who, but not saying [destroyed] "at the moment the man of sin ARRIVES" )



THAT ^ all corresponds precisely with the OTHER texts expressing a "BEGINNING, MIDDLE, and an END" (of those "7 yrs"):


--Matt24:4(/Mk13:5) [BEGINNING]; Matt24:15,21 [MIDDLE], Matt24:29-31 [END]

--Rev5:6(4:1-6:2) [BEGINNING]; Rev13:5-7 [Dan7:25;... MIDDLE]; Rev19:15 [END]

--Daniel 9:27a(26b) [BEGINNING ("for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]")]; Daniel 9:27b [MIDDLE]; Daniel 9:27c [END]


[and so, likewise...]

--2Th2:9a,(7b-)8a,3b ['be REVEALED';... BEGINNING]; 2Th2:4 ['whom opposeth...exalteth...SITTETH';... MIDDLE]; 2Th2:8b ['whom the Lord SHALL CONSUME... DESTROY';... END]

[end quoting old post]

That is all well and good, but Jesus told me personally that "You could find that entire 70th week clearly marked." (He had first said I could find the exact midpoint clearly marked" and told me how to find it. ) I discovered the exact midpoint was marked by a 7: the 7th trumpet. I quickly rushed to the 7th vial and read "it is done." I KNEW then I had found what He sent me to find: the 70th week "clearly marked." But I rushed to the 7th seal and read of the 30 mintues of silence and thought: what a great way to start the 70th week.

So, YES, the week has a beginning: the 7th seal that allows the book to be opened to reveal the trumpets.
YES, the week has a midpoint: it is marked by the 7th trumpet.
YES, the week ends: at the 7th vial.
BUT THE BEAST rising is in chapter 13: just after the midpoint - showing us He is revealed only at the midpoint.

What? Do you expect the man of sin to enter the Holy of Holies in the temple and the daily sacrifices keep right on taking place? NEVER! The temple would have to be cleansed. It will be the stopping of the daily sacrifices that will divide the week. Jesus said there would be an abomination. It is when the man of sin declares he is GOD! Jesus also told those in Judea to flee the moment they see the abomination - and we see that fleeing begin in 12:6 - showing us that verse is only a second or two after the abomination and division of the week. It is not a mistake that John wrote of seeing the rising of the beast in chapter 13. This is just after he entered the temple and showed the world that he was John's Antichrist BEAST. But from the time He was revealed, God will give him 42 months. His END will be when Jesus returns as in Rev. 19.

Just so you know, the revealing of the Beast is NOT his middle or his end. it is when he is revealed, meaning that NOW (at that time) people will KNOW who the Beast of Revelation is.

V.8a is the man of sin's ARRIVAL... v.8b is his END (7 yrs apart). You are using eisegesis again!

His revealing is not until the midpoint of the week! That is why his 42 months starts near the midpoint. NO ONE WILL KNOW FOR SURE who the Beast is until his revealing. That is what the very word means.

OF COURSE he will be alive and will somewhere but no one will know he is the Beast until his revealing. And Paul's teaching is, He CANNOT be revealed until the power restraining Him is "taken out of the way" or departed.

 

[lamad]

Well, tell that to the [5th Trumpet (MID-point of trib)] characters, of whom it is stated:

"7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns [stephanoi / stephanos - G4735 -- SAME WORD] like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. 8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. 9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. 10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails [comp. Isa9:15 - "The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail."]: and their power was to hurt men five months. 11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter."



Why do "victors' crowns" fit these dudes/creatures/locusts (when they are on the 'WRONG side') ?? [my view: it's not a good argument]




[my view is that these are (certain) "persons" being demonically energized... rather than being some kind of "insect," if you will]

Sorry, MISSED IT AGAIN! The week begins with the first trumpet. The 5th trumpet may only be half way through the first half of the week. It is NOT THE MIDPOINT. The midpoint is marked with a 7: the 7th trumpet. There is proof of this.

Did you miss the "as it were?" They were not wearing crowns - it only LOOKED like it. Why not just take this as literal? They have a purpose: to PUNISH. Their still will hurt so much they want to die.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You can ignore the text and imagine all you want. You will be wrong. You must follow the context. Points John made that you are ignoring:
WHY was Jesus not seen at the right hand of the Father?

I think I already addressed this.

John was being "SHOWN" things (1:1 / 4:1)... so first he sees this, then he sees that, then he sees the other thing... and finally, he sees "Jesus" ("STANDING as a Lamb HAVING BEEN SLAIN [PERFECT participle]")

The things he sees are described as in a "JUDGMENT setting" ("a COURT ROOM" setting, so to speak), reflecting a marked "CHANGE".

WHY Was the holy Spirit in the throne room in this vision?

Say again?? [plz clarify]

WHY was "no man found?"

I already presented how the wording in 5:4 "was found" is the SAME as used in the latter parts of Acts, re: Paul being brought before their human/earthly bema.

5:4 is saying that a "searching judgment" has already taken place, and here are the results.

ONLY ONE MAN is worthy to TAKE the scroll and OPEN IT... (coz, you know, one of the elders told John, "WEEP NOT, dude!!" You haven't been 'SHOWN' Jesus!!... but THEN comes the "And I BEHELD..." (IN THE MIDST of) !!)

Until you can answer these correctly, you will never understand the part of John's vision.

I must disagree, due to the "timing" matters having been addressed in 1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 ("IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]") and the "chronology" issues (Matt22:7 is the 70ad events, and v.8's "THEN SAITH HE to his servants..." must necessarily have come AFTER the 70ad events, and Rev1:1/7:3 (given in the LATER 95ad) fits this perfectly, whereas the "32ad" events do not... HOWEVER, Jesus is INDEED providing VERY CLEAR "time-stamps" FOR that *future*, specific, LIMITED time-period we call "the 7-yr Trib" (and by "comparing Scripture with Scripture," we can trace these out and see the precise "lay out" of THAT [meaning, the "time-stamps" within the future 7-yr period])

 

[Truth7t7]

That is all well and good, but Jesus told me personally that "You could find that entire 70th week clearly marked." (He had first said I could find the exact midpoint clearly marked" and told me how to find it. ) I discovered the exact midpoint was marked by a 7: the 7th trumpet. I quickly rushed to the 7th vial and read "it is done." I KNEW then I had found what He sent me to find: the 70th week "clearly marked." But I rushed to the 7th seal and read of the 30 mintues of silence and thought: what a great way to start the 70th week.

So, YES, the week has a beginning: the 7th seal that allows the book to be opened to reveal the trumpets.
YES, the week has a midpoint: it is marked by the 7th trumpet.
YES, the week ends: at the 7th vial.
BUT THE BEAST rising is in chapter 13: just after the midpoint - showing us He is revealed only at the midpoint.

What? Do you expect the man of sin to enter the Holy of Holies in the temple and the daily sacrifices keep right on taking place? NEVER! The temple would have to be cleansed. It will be the stopping of the daily sacrifices that will divide the week. Jesus said there would be an abomination. It is when the man of sin declares he is GOD! Jesus also told those in Judea to flee the moment they see the abomination - and we see that fleeing begin in 12:6 - showing us that verse is only a second or two after the abomination and division of the week. It is not a mistake that John wrote of seeing the rising of the beast in chapter 13. This is just after he entered the temple and showed the world that he was John's Antichrist BEAST. But from the time He was revealed, God will give him 42 months. His END will be when Jesus returns as in Rev. 19.

Just so you know, the revealing of the Beast is NOT his middle or his end. it is when he is revealed, meaning that NOW (at that time) people will KNOW who the Beast of Revelation is.


His revealing is not until the midpoint of the week! That is why his 42 months starts near the midpoint. NO ONE WILL KNOW FOR SURE who the Beast is until his revealing. That is what the very word means.

OF COURSE he will be alive and will somewhere but no one will know he is the Beast until his revealing. And Paul's teaching is, He CANNOT be revealed until the power restraining Him is "taken out of the way" or departed.

Real Big Smiles!

 

[Truth7t7]

I think I already addressed this.

John was being "SHOWN" things (1:1 / 4:1)... so first he sees this, then he sees that, then he sees the other thing... and finally, he sees "Jesus" ("STANDING as a Lamb HAVING BEEN SLAIN [PERFECT participle]")

The things he sees are described as in a "JUDGMENT setting" ("a COURT ROOM" setting, so to speak), reflecting a marked "CHANGE".



Say again?? [plz clarify]



I already presented how the wording in 5:4 "was found" is the SAME as used in the latter parts of Acts, re: Paul being brought before their human/earthly bema.

5:4 is saying that a "searching judgment" has already taken place, and here are the results.

ONLY ONE MAN is worthy to TAKE the scroll and OPEN IT... (coz, you know, one of the elders told John, "WEEP NOT, dude!!" You haven't been 'SHOWN' Jesus!!... but THEN comes the "And I BEHELD..." (IN THE MIDST of) !!)



I must disagree, due to the "timing" matters having been addressed in 1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 ("IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]") and the "chronology" issues (Matt22:7 is the 70ad events, and v.8's "THEN SAITH HE to his servants..." must necessarily have come AFTER the 70ad events, and Rev1:1/7:3 (given in the LATER 95ad) fits this perfectly, whereas the "32ad" events do not... HOWEVER, Jesus is INDEED providing VERY CLEAR "time-stamps" FOR that *future*, specific, LIMITED time-period we call "the 7-yr Trib" (and by "comparing Scripture with Scripture," we can trace these out and see the precise "lay out" of THAT [meaning, the "time-stamps" within the future 7-yr period])

Unreadable Chaos

 

[lamad]

John finally gets to the Antichrist Beast in chapter 13.

Why then do so many people try to find Him in chapter 6?

 

[lamad]

I think I already addressed this.

John was being "SHOWN" things (1:1 / 4:1)... so first he sees this, then he sees that, then he sees the other thing... and finally, he sees "Jesus" ("STANDING as a Lamb HAVING BEEN SLAIN [PERFECT participle]")

The things he sees are described as in a "JUDGMENT setting" ("a COURT ROOM" setting, so to speak), reflecting a marked "CHANGE".



Say again?? [plz clarify]



I already presented how the wording in 5:4 "was found" is the SAME as used in the latter parts of Acts, re: Paul being brought before their human/earthly bema.

5:4 is saying that a "searching judgment" has already taken place, and here are the results.

ONLY ONE MAN is worthy to TAKE the scroll and OPEN IT... (coz, you know, one of the elders told John, "WEEP NOT, dude!!" You haven't been 'SHOWN' Jesus!!... but THEN comes the "And I BEHELD..." (IN THE MIDST of) !!)



I must disagree, due to the "timing" matters having been addressed in 1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 ("IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]") and the "chronology" issues (Matt22:7 is the 70ad events, and v.8's "THEN SAITH HE to his servants..." must necessarily have come AFTER the 70ad events, and Rev1:1/7:3 (given in the LATER 95ad) fits this perfectly, whereas the "32ad" events do not... HOWEVER, Jesus is INDEED providing VERY CLEAR "time-stamps" FOR that *future*, specific, LIMITED time-period we call "the 7-yr Trib" (and by "comparing Scripture with Scripture," we can trace these out and see the precise "lay out" of THAT [meaning, the "time-stamps" within the future 7-yr period])

and finally, he sees "Jesus" ("STANDING as a Lamb HAVING BEEN SLAIN

Finally? You missed the entire story!
John saw the throne and the Father on the throne, He saw the four Beasts, and He saw the 24 elders, but what he did NOT see was Jesus at the right hand of the Father. Take special note, because this book is HIS REVEALING!

Jesus asked me - I heard His words and His voice - He said that He had been back in heaven for years, and that there are over a dozen verses showing that He went to be at the right hand of the Father - and He reminded me that Stephen SAW HIM at the right hand of the Father. So He asked me, "why did John not immediately see me there?

Since Jesus is the One showing John the vision, we can know that John saw exactly what Jesus wanted Him to see - a throne room with Jesus NOT SEEN. (Don't just ahead and show me that Jesus showed up later! We must consider TIME. )

The things he sees are described as in a "JUDGMENT setting" ("a COURT ROOM" setting, so to speak), reflecting a marked "CHANGE".

No, wrong. This is eisegesis again. It is the throne room. There is nothing special about it EXCEPT the main character is MISSING!

Then Jesus mentioned the fact that in chapter 5 the Holy Spirit was there - but He said that He would send Him down as soon as He ascended. He reminded me that He had been ascended for many years. So He asked: WHY was the Holy Spirit there in chapter 4?

 

[Runningman]

John finally gets to the Antichrist Beast in chapter 13.

Why then do so many people try to find Him in chapter 6?

What you're probably not seeing is that Gods wrath begins in the 6th seal at the return of Christ. You've been shown this repeatedly in this thread and probably glazed over it. You likely still believe the great tribulation is God's wrath. That bias will blind you to what the scripture actually says.

The anti-Christ, and anyone who takes the mark, will face God's wrath at the return of Christ.

 

[cv5]

Agreed. THAT kind of "bow" aka "the battle bow" (its last 3 occurrences in the OT)

That kind of "bow" (the "battle bow" kind, with arrows) is also used:

--in contexts speaking of a "DECEITFUL bow" - Psalm 78:9 / Hosea 7:16

--in contexts speaking of "bend THEIR TONGUES like bows; LIES prevail over truth in the land. For they proceed from evil to evil, and they do not take Me into account,” declares the LORD." - Jeremiah 9:3

--in contexts speaking of "The WICKED have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation." - Psalm 11:2 / 37:14

[etc...]

Likewise, there are a number of verses speaking of "ARROWS" in the same way ('lies' /'deceit').


Jesus says, in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 "Take heed, lest A CERTAIN ONE [G5100 - tis] *deceive* you, FOR MANY will come in My name saying..." (i.e. the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" OF "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" [with many more following on from THOSE], where the INITIAL ONE, Paul says [1Th5:2-3] is at the *ARRIVAL* of the DOTL time-period, aka the START of the TRIB YRS! aka SEAL #1... aka the "whose COMING [/ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia] is after the working of Satan" [lying wonders... deceivableness...] of "the man of sin" 2Th2:9a, IN HIS TIME [the "IN THE NIGHT / DARK / DARKNESS" time-period, aka the first aspect of "the DOTL," meaning the "7 TRIB yrs"] )


... and which SEAL #1 which Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 says (when you COMPARE THE GREEK):

--that 'mello [SURE to / CERTAIN to]' MEANS the same as "MUST";
--and "TO SHEW UNTO" = "I WILL SHEW YOU";
--and "things which must come to pass AFTER THESE THINGS" = "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" in CONTRAST TO "the things WHICH ARE" which are NOT said to be "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"),

... that this is speaking of the specific, future, LIMITED time-period [the 7 yrs] that both Rom16:20 ("CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR FEET *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]*") and Lk18:8 ("AVENGE *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]*") ALSO speak to! [not speaking of "NOW"... but FOLLOWING "our Rapture"];

...and when you consider that the "4 living creatures" are described in the SAME WAY that the "4-directional plotment" of Israel is described in the OT (so, concerning "earthly-located" matters), but interestingly enough, also specific "time-stamp-related" things (each of the "4 living creatures," that is);

... and when you consider that this is when Jesus will 'STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev5:9 etc;

...and when you consider that 5:6 states "seven Spirits of God HAVING BEEN SENT [PERFECT participle] out into/unto all the earth" can just as easily mean, FOLLOWING "our Rapture / THE Departure";

...and when you consider that "kings went [/go] out to battle" at a VERY SPECIFIC point-in-time/date (in Scripture), think: Jesus in Rev19, then counting back precisely "2520 days," one can see that the Rev5:6 "context"/setting ("[saw IN THE MIDST of the throne and of the 4 living creatures and IN THE MIDST of the elders (i.e. UP IN Heaven)] a Lamb STANDING as HAVING BEEN SLAIN [PERFECT participle]...") is also pinpointing a particular calendar date [but not back in "32ad," see ])





--way too much more to say about this topic... but as you can see, I remain unconvinced of your viewpoint that the SEALS have been unfolding since the first century. No.



[BTW, I *disagree* that the "a great multitude... of all the nations" (Rev7:9,14) coming out of "THE GREAT tribulation" (i.e. the SECOND HALF of the 7 yrs) are "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... NO. Disagree!]

Psalm 78:57
But turned back and acted unfaithfully like their fathers;
They were turned aside like a deceitful bow.

 

[Hevosmies]

Here is a list of verses proving a posttrib rapture:

I'll fix that for ya:

2 Thessalonians 1:6-8 (believers get rest at the same time as Jesus returns in FLAMING FIRE)
Matthew 24:29-31
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (YES this one as well, it says at the COMING of the Lord, THE coming, definite article, not A coming, one of many)
1 Corinthians 15:23 (First Christ, then THOSE THAT ARE HIS at His coming, not those that are His at His coming and then 2 more resurrections or however many dispies got nowadays, I lost count!)
2 Thessalonians 2 (Man of sin and apostasy first, then Jesus destroys the man of sin AT HIS RETURN, at which poitn we are gathered to Him, not before...)


Just the fact that the BIBLE never mentions a separate third coming in the New Testament is enough to bury this idea. Also the fact that you guys cant even agree amongst yourselves what verses are "Rapture verses" and what are "second coming verses". Reason for this is: ITS ALL ONE AND THE SAME. The resurrection occurs when Jesus returns.. its that simple, no need to figure out what verse is which.

So yeah there are post-trib verses, now for the pre-trib verses? Let me guess, Rev 3:10, Matthew 24:40, the made up restrainer being the Church, the made up apostasy being the rapture.

 

[Runningman]

I'll fix that for ya:

2 Thessalonians 1:6-8 (believers get rest at the same time as Jesus returns in FLAMING FIRE)
Matthew 24:29-31
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (YES this one as well, it says at the COMING of the Lord, THE coming, definite article, not A coming, one of many)
1 Corinthians 15:23 (First Christ, then THOSE THAT ARE HIS at His coming, not those that are His at His coming and then 2 more resurrections or however many dispies got nowadays, I lost count!)
2 Thessalonians 2 (Man of sin and apostasy first, then Jesus destroys the man of sin AT HIS RETURN, at which poitn we are gathered to Him, not before...)


Just the fact that the BIBLE never mentions a separate third coming in the New Testament is enough to bury this idea. Also the fact that you guys cant even agree amongst yourselves what verses are "Rapture verses" and what are "second coming verses". Reason for this is: ITS ALL ONE AND THE SAME. The resurrection occurs when Jesus returns.. its that simple, no need to figure out what verse is which.

So yeah there are post-trib verses, now for the pre-trib verses? Let me guess, Rev 3:10, Matthew 24:40, the made up restrainer being the Church, the made up apostasy being the rapture.

This is a good one for the study too I think. Jesus delivers us (the church) from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 1:10
10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Important question, then. When is the wrath to come? It happens at the return of Christ as stated in Matthew 24:29-31 and as stated in the 6th seal of Revelation 6.

Jesus will save us from the wrath to come after the great tribulation. The church will be raptured out of the way. Hopefully we'll get front row seats to watch the fireworks from a good safe distance.

 

[Hevosmies]

This is a good one for the study too I think. Jesus delivers us (the church) from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 1:10
10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Important question, then. When is the wrath to come? It happens at the return of Christ as stated in Matthew 24:29-31 and as stated in the 6th seal of Revelation 6.

Jesus will save us from the wrath to come after the great tribulation. The church will be raptured out of the way. Hopefully we'll get front row seats to watch the fireworks from a good safe distance.

The way I see it is, even if we take the vials of wrath in Revelation.

We see in Revelation 16:15, Jesus aint returned yet.

The way I see it is: Its a remake of the Israel - Egypt situation. Was Israel there when Egypt got hit with the plagues? YES. Was Israel targeted with them? NO. They were protected cause of the BLOOD OF THE LAMB. Same thing here.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Did you miss the "as it were?" They were not wearing crowns - it only LOOKED like it.

Look how many times the word "AS" (or "LIKE UNTO") is used in this section...

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. 8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. 9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. 10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails [Isa9:15b! "like unto" THAT! ]: and their power was to hurt men five months. 11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.



[just because "as" / "like unto" is used, doesn't mean, say, the "breastplates of iron" don't represent something REAL, here]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"a Lamb standing as having been slain [perfect participle]"




[is this saying, "but not really, he really hadn't been"... "it only LOOKED like it" ??]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Psalm 78:57
But turned back and acted unfaithfully like their fathers;
They were turned aside like a deceitful bow.

Thanks man, that ^ is indeed the reference I had intended (where my "typo" instead said v.9)... appreciate you checkin' that out and CORRECTING the reference!!

 

[lamad]

(Why was the Holy Spirit still there in the throne room in chapter 4)
Say again?? [plz clarify]



I already presented how the wording in 5:4 "was found" is the SAME as used in the latter parts of Acts, re: Paul being brought before their human/earthly bema.

5:4 is saying that a "searching judgment" has already taken place, and here are the results.

ONLY ONE MAN is worthy to TAKE the scroll and OPEN IT... (coz, you know, one of the elders told John, "WEEP NOT, dude!!" You haven't been 'SHOWN' Jesus!!... but THEN comes the "And I BEHELD..." (IN THE MIDST of) !!)



I must disagree, due to the "timing" matters having been addressed in 1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 ("IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]") and the "chronology" issues (Matt22:7 is the 70ad events, and v.8's "THEN SAITH HE to his servants..." must necessarily have come AFTER the 70ad events, and Rev1:1/7:3 (given in the LATER 95ad) fits this perfectly, whereas the "32ad" events do not... HOWEVER, Jesus is INDEED providing VERY CLEAR "time-stamps" FOR that *future*, specific, LIMITED time-period we call "the 7-yr Trib" (and by "comparing Scripture with Scripture," we can trace these out and see the precise "lay out" of THAT [meaning, the "time-stamps" within the future 7-yr period])

Say again? Clarify

Rev. 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. [which is the Holy Spirit.]

Jesus asked me "Why is He still in the throne room? I said I would send Him down as soon as I ascended."
in other words, Jesus is giving a strong hint that at that time in the vision Jesus had not yet ascended.

If you wish to answer His question, please jump right in. When He asked, I had no answer.

I already presented how the wording in 5:4 "was found" is the SAME as used in the latter parts of Acts, re: Paul being brought before their human/earthly bema.
5:4 is saying that a "searching judgment" has already taken place, and here are the results.

You sure seem to find "judgment" when John gives no hint of it! Let's read the context:

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

We don't need to know every Greek word, or any Greek word: this is very clear: God has sent an angel in search of someone qualified to take the book and open the seals. What was the result? It is very simple and easy to understand: "no man was found worthy..."

Jesus said to me that if I read ahead, HE was found worthy. So He asked me, "why was I not found in that first search John watched that ended in failure? I could not answer His question. if you wish to answer, please do.

To be sure, there is a reason why "no man was found." It is a very sound reason. Why was Jesus asking me these questions? I can assure you, it was NOT because He did not know. Just the fact that He asks shows us that what John saw was EXACTLY word for word what God wanted John to see and then to write. By the way, the fact that Jesus ask me why backs up the truth that a search was carried out and it ended in failure. The question no one here wants to answer is WHY?
Another question: WHERE was Jesus when this search was being done? Now this is the real question! Give it a shot, Watermark! Where was HE?

"timing" matters having been addressed in 1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1

1:1 " things which must shortly come to pass..." How can this answer any of these questions Jesus asked me? Some people imagine it was all done in 70 AD because of this word, "shortly." I disagree with them.

1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Simple instructions: John is told to right things he has seen, or history from that point, things which are, or things present tense to John at that point in time, and things hereafter.

There is no conflict with this statement and John writing about Jesus under the earth and then rising from the dead and then ascending. These fit into things John as seen - or historic events.

4: 1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

There are two timing words or phrases here: After this is the way John transitioned from one part of the vision to another as the vision changed subjects. "Hereafter" is a simple statement of fact: God would show John things future to him at that time - Which God did. I doubt anyone would argue this point.

THEREFORE, I don't see your point. What are you really disagreeing with? I think your preconceptions are so strong - when John shows Jesus ascending back into the throne room as a lamb having been slain, John was showing JUST slain and JUST ascended, while you are thinking thousands of years future. This is a revelation of Jesus Christ! Compare with How John saw Him in 95 AD:

13..."one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength."

It seems then John is making a real statement when He said "as a lamb having been slain. " We are to take it as it JUST HAPPENED. Again, run through the evidence:
Jesus NOT SEEN in the throne room - because He was on earth.
The Holy Spirit STILL THERE - because Jesus had not yet ascended
NO man found - because at that time (in the vision) Jesus had not yet risen from the dead
...THEN TIME PASSES - ANOTHER SEARCH started...

JESUS FOUND WORTHY!
Jesus ascends and shows up in the throne room
Jesus sends the Holy Spirit down.

It is a vision for John of the throne room of His past - some 60 plus years into John's past. So while many people are thinking future, GOD was thinking history.

Matt22:7 This is a parable and has nothing to do with when Jesus died, was buried then rose from the dead and then ascended back to His home. It is a parable about the coming marriage and supper in heaven. Jesus is standing with arms open saying "come." But many are busy with life and are not paying attention. Others are actively killing the servants. So this is end time, not when Jesus was on earth and not at the timing of the first seal.

Matt22:7 is the 70ad events

No, I don't think so. The marriage is future.

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. This is future - just before the 70th week begins and has nothing to do with the first seal. AGain, John is at the time the church is sent out, and you imagine John is in our future! You are 2000 years off!

Actually, the churches were there in 95 AD, and John was still there. Rome was still there. But there is very little on Revelation specific to 95 AD except John caught up.

fits this perfectly, whereas the "32ad" events do not...

Oh, really? Let's rehearse:
1. Jesus NOT SEEN in heaven because He was on earth: CHECK! for 32 AD
2. The Holy Spirit still there because Jesus had not yet ascended. CHECK!
3. No man found in a search because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. CHECK!
4. After time Jesus revails over death! Check!
5. Then JESUS found worthy. Check!
6. Jesus ascends back into heaven, having just sent Mary away. Check!
7. Jesus sends the Holy Spirit down. Check!

I find 7 items that fit 32 AD. I would say you missed it on every point.

 

[lamad]

Thanks man, that ^ is indeed the reference I had intended (where my "typo" instead said v.9)... appreciate you checkin' that out and CORRECTING the reference!!

It makes little difference because you are imposing that idea on a verse that has not the slightest hint of deceit.