50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[lamad]

^ ... speaking of which...


How are you saying that "the DOTL" *ARRIVES* (in its INITIAL MOMENTS) at both SEAL #1 [Rev6] *and* Armageddon [Rev19]??... pick one.

[hilarious!]





[perhaps I am just completely misunderstanding you...]


____________

I believe "the DOTL" *ARRIVES* (to unfold upon the earth over time) at SEAL #1 (not at the Armageddon time-slot / Christ's Second Coming to the earth point-in-time Rev19)

You of all the writers here should know to follow the TEXT! The Day of the Lord starts at the 6th seal. John TELLS us this! The first 5 seals are church age. The church age will end with the last church age martyr of the 5th seal. This parallels Matthew 24 where "the end is not yet. It seems you believe that in Matthew but don't believe it here. Surely you recognize parallels in Matthew 24 and some of the seals.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Agree....DOTL arrives on the earth at seal #1. But I think it actually begins in heaven when the Lamb stands to take to scroll Rev 5:6-7.
I'm pretty sure you have mentioned this several times in the past......
Rev 5:6: histēmi.......Standing to judge.

Agreed. Yes.

--I do not believe there's any substantial amount of time between when He takes the scroll, and when He OPENS the scroll. (This is indeed when He will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13 etc...)

--I believe Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 says that the future aspects of the Book (i.e. from 4:1 onward) are [said to be] "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (NOT things which would unfold over the course of some 2000 years! [and IN CONTRAST TO "the things WHICH ARE," which are NOT said to be "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"])

--I believe SEAL #1 EQUALS [the INITIAL ONE OF] "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS" [Matt24:4 / Mk13:5; and 1Th5:2-3] and THOSE were said come AFTER the 70ad events (and I do not say *immediately after*), because of the SEQUENCE issues shown in both Lk21:12 and in Matt22:7 then v.8 (where v.8 corresponds with the Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:7 [/7:3] LATER writings of "[The] Revelation," in about 95ad... "...which God GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus] TO SHEW unto..."]

--I do believe the things depicted in Revelation are showing "time-stamps" (some more readily apparent than others); and that the entirety of the SPANS of time from SEAL 1 [also from 4:1, pretty much] to His "RETURN" to the earth in Rev19 comes to precisely "2520 days"

--could say much more, but this is enough for one post... = )

 

[Truth7t7]

You both are sincere, but are sincerely WRONG. The Appearing in the Clouds is a Separate prior incident, about 7 years Prior to the SECOND COMING, and I CAN PROVE IT; but I doubt if you will even READ IT. Your brainwashed thoughts, are NOT TRUTH.

THIS VERSE IS ABSOLUTE TRUTH:

Matthew 25:13 (NCV)
13 “So always be ready, because you don’t know the day or the hour the Son of Man will come.


Yeshua SAID it, and YOU DOUBT IT, simply becauce YOU were taught different. That is PLAIN ENGLISH, and YOU proceed to DOUBT IT.

How many will not KNOW the Day or the Hour ? ? ?

Can't you see the Day or Hour is Known by ever combatant on the Armageddan Battle Field ? ? ?

Revelation 19:19 (NKJV)
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

They are their to try to stop JESUS CHRIST from coming back.


DON'T YOU SEE, THE ONLY WAY THEY WILL NOT will not know the at Least the DAY, is if it was Pretribulation ? ? ?

It would take at least two months to gather the world's Armies in the Valley of Megiddo and Jerusalem, and TWO MONTHS is a LONG TIME. But HIS APPEARING, the one Known AS the RAPTURE will be gathered in a flash, as quick as a lightning flash.

Matthew 24:27 (NKJV)
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

1 Corinthians 15:51-58 (KJV)
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 (HCSB)
14 Since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, in the same way God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.
15 For we say this to you by a revelation from the Lord: We who are still alive at the Lord’s coming will certainly have no advantage over those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Here is the tradition Feasts of TRUMPETS, in a Massianic Christian Church

Leviticus 23:24 (NASB)
24 "Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'In the seventh month on the first of the month you shall have a rest, a reminder by blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation.

The LAST TRUMP HAS NOTHING to do with the TRUMPET JUDGEMENTS. It is Part of the FEAST OF TRUMPETS, the very LAST TRUMP, and is traditionally held extra long, and is Called in JUDAISM the LAST TRUMP.

Here is what it SOUNDS LIKE:

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end,

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end,

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end,

1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[lamad]

Please read more carefully. I never said "coming first". The words "coming of the Lord" refers to the SECOND advent. THen the rapture.

True, the next time He comes will be His SECOND coming. Pre and post BOTH agree on this. So you have proven nothing. What you must prove is that this is NOT the coming in Rev. 19. All pretribbers believe the coming in Rev. 19 comes 7+ years AFTER this coming. if you wish to prove a posttrib rapture, the show proof that this coming in 1 & 2 thes. is after the trib. Good luck with that, no one has ever accomplished this, or we would not now be disagreeing.

You seem not to even grasp the real issue here.

Sure I do: the real issue is WHEN the rapture takes place, before the trib or after the trib. If you could prove only one more coming by scripture, that would be a good start. If you could prove Paul's rapture comes after the trib, that would be a good start. Just showing His coming and then the gathering proves both pre and post trib. We ALL believe that. What pretribber DON"T believe is that there is only one more coming of our Lord. We believe He comes next FOR His saints, then again 7+ years later WITH His Saints. Just showing a coming proves nothing.

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end,

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end,

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end,

1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end,

Keep in mind, this is ONE SENTENCE. Revelation shows His coming and things after His coming in CHAPTERS. Which then is the wisest place to form doctrine? "THEN" does not necessarily mean the next instant.

The KJV translates Strong's G1534 in the following manner: then (11x), after that (3x), afterward (1x), furthermore (1x).

It could as well be translated "after that comes the end."

The big question is, WHAT END?
The end of the church age?
The end of the Jewish age?
The end of the 70th week?
The end of the 1000 year reign?

It would be much better to form your doctrine from Revelation that shows the end of the 70th week at the 7th vial. This also is the end of the Jewish age. But JEsus has not come yet. the events in chapters 17 & 18 take place, then the marriage and supper, and then, finally Jesus comes. HIs coming is still not the end. After His coming is the 1000 year reign of Christ. And after that, the battle of Gog and Magog. That still is not "the end." After that is the end of the heavens and earth and then the great, white throne judgment.

I guess we could say when Christ comes it is the end of the curse on the earth. Some might say the end of one age, the beginning of another.

In summary, just quoting "afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end," does not prove much.

Note: I have no idea why this is formated like it is.

 

[Truth7t7]

FreeGrace2 said:
Your views are warped. Rev 20 is so clear. But go ahead and reject the truth.

But you have no excuse.

Your "explanation" is nothing more than a "spiritualizing" of literal Scripture.

When people spiritualize Scripture, they are able to make up whatever they want.

The Bible is full of verses teaching that Jesus comes back and King of kings, and Lord of lords, and will rule the nations with a rod of iron. Yet you seem only capable of thinking that Christ rules His own people with a harsh rule. Ridiculous.

Just as the pre-tribbers deny Gods words regarding truth, you do the same regarding the false teaching of a Millennial Kingdom on this earth,

Many falsely claiming Jesus will come and rule on earth amongst mortal humans in (Deception)

As God's word "Clearly Teaches" below, Jesus Christ returns (Then Cometh The End) Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory, The Eternal Glorified Body Is Received, At This Last Day Resurrection And Changing

Your Millennial Kingdom On Earth Is "Gone", In Light Of God's Presented Words Of Truth Below, "Gone"

Will You Rebel Against The Clear Words Of God?

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end,

1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Truth7t7]

It is beyond obvious the 10 virgin parable is the rapture

The 10 virgin parable is nothing more than the (Second Coming)

Yes Pre-Tribbers do nothing more than take the (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ, and falsely claim it's a pre-trib rapture, you think everybody is blind to this fact, Real Big Smiles!

 

[Truth7t7]

Ok i do happen to remember i said " chamber" and you proceded to quash that word.

You can call it " room" if you like.
The door was shut.

(Mat 25 gathering of the bride)

You have resorted in response to yourself, Big Smiles Again

 

[lamad]

Agreed. Yes.

--I do not believe there's any substantial amount of time between when He takes the scroll, and when He OPENS the scroll. (This is indeed when He will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13 etc...)

--I believe Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 says that the future aspects of the Book (i.e. from 4:1 onward) are [said to be] "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (NOT things which would unfold over the course of some 2000 years! [and IN CONTRAST TO "the things WHICH ARE," which are NOT said to be "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"])

--I believe SEAL #1 EQUALS [the INITIAL ONE OF] "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS" [Matt24:4 / Mk13:5; and 1Th5:2-3] and THOSE were said come AFTER the 70ad events (and I do not say *immediately after*), because of the SEQUENCE issues shown in both Lk21:12 and in Matt22:7 then v.8 (where v.8 corresponds with the Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:7 [/7:3] LATER writings of "[The] Revelation," in about 95ad... "...which God GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus] TO SHEW unto..."]

--I do believe the things depicted in Revelation are showing "time-stamps" (some more readily apparent than others); and that the entirety of the SPANS of time from SEAL 1 [also from 4:1, pretty much] to His "RETURN" to the earth in Rev19 comes to precisely "2520 days"

--could say much more, but this is enough for one post... = )

Sorry, but you really are not in agreement with John. Chapters 4 & 5 are the context of the first seal.
Why not look and ask John when Jesus got the book into His hands?

Rev. 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
A search is made for a man worthy of taking the book and opening the seals. In heaven, on earth and in hell.
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
This search ended in failure and John wrote, "no man was found." WHY Jesus not found? It is before He rose from the dead.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
John seemed to know the importance of getting this book opened (It gets Satan kicked off his throne as god of this world.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
The first thing to notice here is that TIME PASSED. Jesus NOT FOUND worthy before, but this search He WAS found worthy. What did He prevail over to become worthy? He prevailed over DEATH. So verse 5 shows us the time of His resurrection.
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Here John saw Jesus ascended back into heaven and then immediately send the Holy Spirit down. TIME? Around 32 AD.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
The first thing Jesus did was get the book and begin opening the seals. WHEN? Around 32 AD.

Anyone can pull verses out of their context and make them say whatever their imagination thinks. Let's leave the first seal in its early church context and then we will know what it is.

Seal one, opened around 32 AD. It is the CHURCH with the GOSPEL.

I do not believe there's any substantial amount of time between when He takes the scroll, and when He OPENS the scroll.

This is a true statement. No one can find 2000 years between ANY of these verses. He got the book and immediately began opening seals. The truth is, God had been waiting nearly 4000 years to get someone qualified to open the seals. Jesus did not waste a minute, but started with the first seal immediately.

4:1 says that the future aspects of the Book (i.e. from 4:1 onward) are [said to be] ...

Note what John really wrote: Most people don't read it properly...

Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

It is a statement of fact. DID Jesus show John things in His future? He certainly did, many things. But notice what this verse does NOT say: It does NOT say I will shew thee ONLY things which must be hereafter. yet many people believe that is what it is saying. The point is, God started in His vision with John with a throne room WITHOUT JESUS. Why?

God wanted to show John THE BOOK, but chose to start the vision while the book was still in the hand of the FAther. Since Jesus took the book as soon as He ascended, SOMEHOW God would have to show John a vision of the past in a way that John and the readers would know it was past, not future.

So God showed John a throne room with Jesus absent, then the Holy Spirit still there, then a search for one worthy that ended in failure. Then another search that found Jesus worthy - all showing TIME and the movement of TIME. It pinpoints the time Jesus rose from the dead, then the time of His ascension and finally the time He sent the Holy Spirit down. And He took the book as soon as He arrived back in the throne room.

--I believe SEAL #1 EQUALS [the INITIAL ONE OF] "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS

NO! Seal 2 is war, to represent one weapon God has allowed the devil to us to try and stop the gospel.

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

We must be consistent in our doctrine!

The 3rd seal is hunger or famine. The 4th seal is DEATH or pestilence. What did Jesus say?

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: [wars again] and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Again, we must to consistent: Jesus does not get to the end until verse 14, they jumps to the middle of the week. But before verse 14, Jesus is speaking of the church age, specifically "the end is not yet. John does not finish the church age until seal 5 for the martyrs of the church age.

I challenge you to study and show yourself approved! ;-)

-I do believe the things depicted in Revelation are showing "time-stamps"

Absolutely! Good point!

from SEAL 1 [also from 4:1, pretty much] to His "RETURN" to the earth in Rev19 comes to precisely "2520 days"

NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! From the 7th SEAL to the 7th vial is 2520 days. And from the 7th trumpet to the 7th vial is 1260 days. God has MARKED (His word not mine) the 70th week with 7's.

 

[lamad]

FreeGrace2 said:
Maybe it hasn't occurred to you, but on a trip from heaven to earth, one has to pass through the atmosphere, where Jesus resurrects all the accompanying dead saints, and gathers up all the living believers and changes them. And THEN He continues on down to earth.

How can the "dead in Christ" be "caught up"? They CAME with Him. It's the living believers who are CAUGHT UP together with THEM (that would be Jesus Christ and the saints already in heaven).

1 Thess 4-
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

If this isn't clear enough, I don't think there is any more than one can do for you.

btw, the phrase "dead in Christ will rise first" refers to the physical bodies being raised from the dirt. Their souls came with Jesus from heaven at the Second Advent.

Sometimes I cannot believe the things you write.

And THEN He continues on down to earth.

All we are asking is written proof of this. You ask for proof He returns to heaven. We are asking for proof He continues down to earth. (We ALL believe He comes to earth in His Rev. 19 coming.)

How can the "dead in Christ" be "caught up"? They CAME with Him.

I can't believe you would ask! It is the spirit with the soul that Christ brings with Him from heaven. Their bodies died and turned to dust. Therefore it will be their BODIES that fly up out of the grave, and changed into resurrection bodies. Then the human spirits join with their old body and are whole once again.

It's the living believers who are CAUGHT UP together with THEM (that would be Jesus Christ and the saints already in heaven).

You amaze me. Did you not read? The dead in Christ are caught up FIRST. Then, when the dead in Christ are up in the air and are made complete again, Spirit, soul and body, THEN those alive are caught up and together WITH THEM (the gathering) we all fly up to meet Jesus in the air. Those that have died in Christ are coming to GET THEIR BODIES.

btw, the phrase "dead in Christ will rise first" refers to the physical bodies being raised from the dirt. Their souls came with Jesus from heaven at the Second Advent

You are very close, but it is their spirit men and women WITH The souls.

 

[lamad]

OK, we'll see about that.


Terrible argument. It is clear as crystal that "coming of our Lord" refers to the Second Advent of Christ, or, the DOTL.

Your argument falls flat.

Try something else.

You are accurate but not right. It is truth that the NEXT coming will be His second coming. And His second coming will be the TRIGGER for first the rapture and next the Day of the Lord. But all this happens BEFORE ANY PART Of the 70th week - it happens between the 5th and 6th seal. (Some think the 7th seal.) Finally, His THIRD coming is shown in Rev. 19.

 

[Evmur]

The truth is, God's wrath starts with the Day of His wrath, THEN the 70th week starts with the trumpet judgments, proving that every trumpet judgment comes inside the DAY and with God's wrath. Yes, anyone can separate general everyday tribulation of the church age from God's wrath, because God has no wrath towards His church. But it is impossible to separate God's wrath from any part of the 70th week, to include the days of great tribulation. (GT) Can we just go by the text?

The text does not say we do not go through great tribulation it says we will.

 

[Evmur]

Show me.
You are projecting what you think into that dynamic.

That day will not come unless there first come the rebellion and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
who opposes everything god so called or is worshipped as god
taking his seat in the temple declaring that he is himself God
whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth.

He will oppose the church, he will oppose all religion ... that bro is the great persecution ... the great tribulation.

 

[Truth7t7]

You are accurate but not right. It is truth that the NEXT coming will be His second coming. And His second coming will be the TRIGGER for first the rapture and next the Day of the Lord. But all this happens BEFORE ANY PART Of the 70th week - it happens between the 5th and 6th seal. (Some think the 7th seal.) Finally, His THIRD coming is shown in Rev. 19.

The Second Coming Is (The End)

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end,

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end,

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end,

1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Truth7t7]

That day will not come unless there first come the rebellion and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
who opposes everything god so called or is worshipped as god
taking his seat in the temple declaring that he is himself God
whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth.

He will oppose the church, he will oppose all religion ... that bro is the great persecution ... the great tribulation.

The sealed church is protected against the plagues, it's going to be 1260 days of the (Two Witnesses) bringing plagues upon the wicked world as seen in Revelation 16:1-11, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Only those men that aren't sealed will be tormented, all saved believers are sealed Eph 1:13, 4:30

Why do you hide the truth of scripture presented, it's going to be tribulation upon the wicked world, 5 months tormented, desiring to die and they can't, as the sealed church is protected

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I challenge you to study and show yourself approved! ;-)

We're simply not going to agree on this. = )

And yes, I've studied the "chronology" issues (of Rev and related passages) for nearly 40 years.



--Paul said that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" that the "DOTL" [earthly time-period] *ARRIVES* like... the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" that COMES UPON a woman...

...SAME THING that Jesus had spoken of in His Olivet Discourse as "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]"...

...so Paul is talking about the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of many more that will unfold upon the earth (the INITIAL ONE being EQUIVALENT to the FIRST SEAL at the START of the future 7 Trib years, which Rev1:1 says is the time-period involving "things which must come to pass [<--comp. 4:1 and 1:19c ('mello' = 'SURE / CERTAIN to'--so SAME THING)] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN;<--same phrase used (and thus the "same time-period" referred to) in Rom16:20 "shall CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR FEET *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]*" and in Lk18:8 "AVENGE *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]*"... neither of which items have started *yet*;

--I disagree that Rev12's "'man child' / 'the male [G730 - arsena / arren]'" speaks of JESUS' Own birth (like in Micah 5:2 DOES), rather is INSTEAD parallel to what Micah 5:3 speaks of (distinct from v.2), "Therefore will he give them up, UNTIL the time that she which travaileth [<--identifying her] HATH BROUGHT FORTH: THEN the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel" [<--this latter part about "the remnant of his brethren" correlating with Rev12:17's "the remnant of her seed" (after the woman, as verse 13 says, "HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male [G730 - arsena / arren]") ['the remnant of her seed / of his brethren'] speaks to "Israel" ON the earth IN the trib (with Micah 5:3's wording being similar to Hosea 5:14-15[6:1-3] speaking of Israel in the trib, and also using the word [and idea] "TILL" regarding them [like several other passages re: them])...

...whereas "the male [/the man child]" is not either "the remnant of Israel" in the future trib, nor Jesus' own birth... I believe (as many scholars do) that "the man child / the male" (being "caught up"--birthed and "caught up [/harpazo'd / SNATCHED]"), [well-]PRIOR to this "MID-trib point"/context, represents the "corporate BODY OF CHRIST" (Christ being "HEAD" of the Church)

--I believe the "Church which is His body" is already UP IN Heaven BEFORE Jesus opens the FIRST SEAL (represented by the "24 elders" sitting on "THRONES" and wearing "stephanon/crowns"<--what Paul said he would be awarded "IN THAT DAY", and "not to [him] only"), etc etc etc... stuff I've already put in this thread and many others... so I won't spell it all out in this post (but again, when viewing the "time-stamps" disclosed throughout "[The] Revelation," I can "see" precisely "2520 days" from the two points I already mentioned... and this in view of Rev1:1's saying "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" and the SEALS being parallel to "the beginning of birth PANGS" and which PAUL is saying the INITIAL ONE is what "kicks off" the DOTL time-period aka the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period (the 7-yr trib)

--way too much more to put, about this... and no one enjoys reading lengthy posts anyway, to ascertain the "reasons" supplied = ) I get it

 

[cv5]

We're simply not going to agree on this. = )

And yes, I've studied the "chronology" issues (of Rev and related passages) for nearly 40 years.



--Paul said that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" that the "DOTL" [earthly time-period] *ARRIVES* like... the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" that COMES UPON a woman...

...SAME THING that Jesus had spoken of in His Olivet Discourse as "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]"...

...so Paul is talking about the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of many more that will unfold upon the earth (the INITIAL ONE being EQUIVALENT to the FIRST SEAL at the START of the future 7 Trib years, which Rev1:1 says is the time-period involving "things which must come to pass [<--comp. 4:1 and 1:19c ('mello' = 'SURE / CERTAIN to'--so SAME THING)] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN;<--same phrase used (and thus the "same time-period" referred to) in Rom16:20 "shall CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR FEET *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]*" and in Lk18:8 "AVENGE *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]*"... neither of which items have started *yet*;

--I disagree that Rev12's "'man child' / 'the male [G730 - arsena / arren]'" speaks of JESUS' Own birth (like in Micah 5:2 DOES), rather is INSTEAD parallel to what Micah 5:3 speaks of (distinct from v.2), "Therefore will he give them up, UNTIL the time that she which travaileth [<--identifying her] HATH BROUGHT FORTH: THEN the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel" [<--this latter part about "the remnant of his brethren" correlating with Rev12:17's "the remnant of her seed" (after the woman, as verse 13 says, "HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male [G730 - arsena / arren]") ['the remnant of her seed / of his brethren'] speaks to "Israel" ON the earth IN the trib (with Micah 5:3's wording being similar to Hosea 5:14-15[6:1-3] speaking of Israel in the trib, and also using the word [and idea] "TILL" regarding them [like several other passages re: them])...

...whereas "the male [/the man child]" is not either "the remnant of Israel" in the future trib, nor Jesus' own birth... I believe (as many scholars do) that "the man child / the male" (being "caught up"--birthed and "caught up [/harpazo'd / SNATCHED]"), [well-]PRIOR to this "MID-trib point"/context, represents the "corporate BODY OF CHRIST" (Christ being "HEAD" of the Church)

--I believe the "Church which is His body" is already UP IN Heaven BEFORE Jesus opens the FIRST SEAL (represented by the "24 elders" sitting on "THRONES" and wearing "stephanon/crowns"<--what Paul said he would be awarded "IN THAT DAY", and "not to [him] only"), etc etc etc... stuff I've already put in this thread and many others... so I won't spell it all out in this post (but again, when viewing the "time-stamps" disclosed throughout "[The] Revelation," I can "see" precisely "2520 days" from the two points I already mentioned... and this in view of Rev1:1's saying "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" and the SEALS being parallel to "the beginning of birth PANGS" and which PAUL is saying the INITIAL ONE is what "kicks off" the DOTL time-period aka the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period (the 7-yr trib)

--way too much more to put, about this... and no one enjoys reading lengthy posts anyway, to ascertain the "reasons" supplied = ) I get it

Good grief I love reading these lengthy posts. I have been bookmarking them like crazy lol.

 

[presidente]

2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
1 thes 4:
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
It fits 1 Thes 4. They are sister verses. Both are for a pretrib rapture. So your proof is no proof at all - it is only in your imagination.

The words themselves prove which occurs first No one has EVER argued against His coming before the catching up! What are you getting at? How does this order: coming first, gathering next prove ANYTHING? Is this a red herring, meant to draw away from the real issue? Read carefully, all pretribbers believe HIS COMING happens first, then the gathering after. The question people have is, WHEN in relation to all the events in the book of Revelation. You have not proved WHEN. WHEN is His coming as shown in this verse? All you have proved is, "just before the gathering!"

Jesus' first coming was around 3-4 BC as a baby. So He does come only once again. I would say 2 BC, but that is not the timing we are questioning. We are talking about when He will come NEXT. I say pretrib. You say posttrib. I have been trying to get you to prove it. L

<<<If you had any scripture that showed that the church would be raptured pretrib, we would have something to talk about.>>>

Here you go.....
Rev 3:10
“Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

No problem for the raptured elders (The Church) shown in Revelation 4-5 who dwell in heaven at the time of the tribulation.

(Trial) peirasmos
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3986&t=NKJV

This passage was written to a church in a city. We do not know if these elders are human.

 

[presidente]

"""If you had any scripture that showed that the church would be raptured pretrib, we would have something to talk about."""

Jesus used noah.

You used noah in the OPPOSITE dynamic.

You have Noah and Lot REMOVED AFTER the flood and sodom destroyed.

7 people followed off the cliff.

Too funny

I am going with what the passages say in a straightforward manner, e.g. 'after the tribulation.' You are trying to create an allegorical interpretation to contradict tge direct literal teachings. I do not accept allegorical interpretations that contradict the plain sense of the text.z

 

[Runningman]

<<<If you had any scripture that showed that the church would be raptured pretrib, we would have something to talk about.>>>

Here you go.....
Rev 3:10
“Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

No problem for the raptured elders (The Church) shown in Revelation 4-5 who dwell in heaven at the time of the tribulation.

(Trial) peirasmos
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3986&t=NKJV

That's a message to the church of Philadelphia. Not really useful to describe the future prophesied great tribulation.

For example, Revelation 2:10 was written to the church of Smyrna and it says "ye shall have tribulation ten days" but we don't use that to say the great tribulation lasts 10 days because we know the context isn't the same. Nice try tho.

Rev. 2:10
10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

 

[VCO]

Good grief I love reading these lengthy posts. I have been bookmarking them like crazy lol.

Yes, I noticed the craziness. It is like playing Dodge Ball in a ZERO Gravity ROOM. DUCK!

2 Peter 3:3-4 (HCSB)
3 First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires,
4 saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation.”