50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[Absolutely]

Ok i do happen to remember i said " chamber" and you proceded to quash that word.

You can call it " room" if you like.
The door was shut.

(Mat 25 gathering of the bride)

^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Absolutely]

Mat 25
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

The rapture

 

[Absolutely]

Left behind are the carnal nominal believers.

 

[Absolutely]

Saved but not intimate

 

[Runningman]

How do post tribbers reconcile this portion of Scripture to their opinion? Clearly the tribulation has not yet reached its conclusion by this point.

Rev 11:12
And they (the two witnesses) heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.

The parallelism is quite inescapable......

1 Thes 4:16-17
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

1 Cor 15:23
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

Jas 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a KIND of firstfruits of His creation.

I don't think the resurrection of the two witnesses is the first resurrection which is a kind of general resurrection that includes those who are "dead in Christ."

But that has nothing to do with the general rapture of living and breathing saints on Earth. I guess you're free to believe it does if you'd like.

According to scripture, the rapture and resurrection occurs at the last trumpet. The only place in the New Testament where there are a series of trumpets is Revelation with the 7th trumpet being the final trumpet for the first resurrection and the rapture.

Notice below the mention of trumpets that occur before the rapture and first resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:52
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I guess you will probably disagree with this, but the 6th seal, 7th vial, and 7th trumpet mark the day of God's wrath which occurs at the coming of Christ after the great tribulation.

Anyway, that's what I believe to be the correct Biblical interpretation. Hopefully that answers your question.

 

[Absolutely]

Some of the reasons are poor or downright false:

Like this,

Poor reason. If II Thessalonians 2 teaches post-trib, why believe in pre-trib?

If he is saying Paul is responding to post-trib reasoning, that does not fit the wording of the passage.

This is false:


False, post-trib allows for a (reasonably) literal interpretation of NT and OT, more literal than pre-trib. Some pretribbers desparate to find some actual evidence for their position have allegoricalized the instruction to John to 'Come up hither.'

This line of argument is false:


I Thessalonians 1 shows that the church receives rest from them that trouble her when Jesus returns to execute wrath on them that know not God and to be glorified in the saints. Many pre-tribbers believe Jesus is going to come part-way down, get the saints, there will be three and a half years of relative peace on earth-- not immediate displays of vengence, followed by persecution of God's people and the second coming.
This is a bogus argument.


The Bible never says Jesus is coming back multiple times after the ascension. It refers to the parousia/coming of Christ. There is no reason to think there are more than one of these parousia events. In I Thessalonians 4, the rapture and resurrection occur at the parousia. In I Corinthians 15, the dead are made alive 'at his coming.'

If he is focused on the book of Revelation, there is no reference to the rapture of the church before the tribulation. Other scripture sets the rapture at the coming of Christ. None sets it seven years before Jesus' coming. The rapture passage in I Thessalonians 4 sets it at the rapture.

In II Thessalonians 2, the passage about the man of sin, that wicked is destroyed at the brightness of the Lord's parousia/coming. The rapture occurs at the parousia/coming of Christ in I Thessalonians 4. Pre-trib doesn't have the man of sin being revealed until after the rapture.



So what then? Does the church have to be destroyed in heaven during this time before the day of wrath according to pre-trib? Does the church exist during this day of wrath, or not?

The issue is whether the church is appointed to wrath, not whether it exists during God's outpouring of wrath. Wrath is anger. God is not angry with the saints with whom He is well pleased. Read Revelation. is God angry with the tribulational saints, who overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of His testimony? When many of them die, why would He listen to their prayers if He is angry? Doesn't this pre-trib argument insist that God must have wrath toward whatever pre-trib saints are on the earth during this time?

The not appointed unto wrath verse says that ye are not appointed unto wrath but to obtain salvation. The tribulational saints who overcome are not appointed to wrath, weather or not they are on earth while God pours his wrath on the wicked. So there is no argument for pre-trib here.



God preserved Noah in the midst of the flood. He was able to pour plagues out on Egypt without getting them on His people. God is able to aim His judgments.


Cited verse does not prove the point. No surprise.

Lol you got 7 likes for error


"""God preserved Noah in the midst of the flood. He was able to pour plagues out on Egypt without getting them on His people. God is able to aim His judgments."""

Yes correct.

He does usher ONLY JEWS to safety in the trib ...why?... Because christians are all Raptured or martyred .
Then seals messianic Jews ONLY against the flying scorpions

Psssst...it is jacobs trouble.

You completely ignore that noah RETURNS TO EARTH POSTFLOOD.

NOTHING THERE WHERE HE leaves postflood.

Hello????
You got it COMPLETELY BACKWARDS.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Saved but not intimate

My view is NOT this ^.

My view is that they are "saved" ('come to faith') at/in/within a completely distinct time-period from when WE ('the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY') are "saved"... that is, THEY "come to faith" FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (when THEY are IN the trib yrs... the "IN THE NIGHT" time period [having to do with the "LAMPS LIT" for the "NIGHT WATCHES" time-period [i.e. the TRIB yrs... the "DARK / DARKNESS" time-period])




[in the same way that WE / 'the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY' did not 'come to faith' in the SAME time-period that the OT saints 'came to faith' ]

 

[Absolutely]

My view is NOT this ^.

My view is that they are "saved" ('come to faith') at/in/within a completely distinct time-period from when WE ('the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY') are "saved"... that is, THEY "come to faith" FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (when THEY are IN the trib yrs... the "IN THE NIGHT" time period [having to do with the "LAMPS LIT" for the "NIGHT WATCHES" time-period [i.e. the TRIB yrs... the "DARK / DARKNESS" time-period])

What in the parable points to that view?

 

[presidente]

Lol you got 7 likes for error


"""God preserved Noah in the midst of the flood. He was able to pour plagues out on Egypt without getting them on His people. God is able to aim His judgments."""

Yes correct.

He does usher ONLY JEWS to safety in the trib ...why?... Because christians are all Raptured or martyred .

If you had any scripture that showed that the church would be raptured pretrib, we would have something to talk about.

You completely ignore that noah RETURNS TO EARTH POSTFLOOD.

NOTHING THERE WHERE HE leaves postflood.

Hello????
You got it COMPLETELY BACKWARDS.

Look at Matthew 24. The Noah analogy is set post tribulation. In I Thessalonians 1, we see the church is here when Jesus returns to execute vengeance on them that believe not.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

​

Of course he was totally wrong. The feast of Trump didn't occur until 2016

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ [I can't figure out if "Rash Hash Ana" is what he ate, or the condition he got AFTER he ate! LOL]

 

[lamad]

I have always agreed with you that the church is raptured before God's wrath.

Tribulation and God's wrath are two different things, we WILL have tribulation ... this is what we are to watch and pray about, this is what we are to be found worthy in.

The Great Tribulation is a particular time in the end times.

The truth is, God's wrath starts with the Day of His wrath, THEN the 70th week starts with the trumpet judgments, proving that every trumpet judgment comes inside the DAY and with God's wrath. Yes, anyone can separate general everyday tribulation of the church age from God's wrath, because God has no wrath towards His church. But it is impossible to separate God's wrath from any part of the 70th week, to include the days of great tribulation. (GT) Can we just go by the text?

 

[lamad]

The fact is "The Day" isnt a thousand literal years on earth, only in your imagination

It begins at the 6th seal. But John does not tell us when it ends. Perhaps it carries on into eternity past "time."
Without doubt, it includes the 1000 year reign of Christ.

 

[lamad]

I told you before, I am too old to even want to argue. You will find out, your time is coming. The BIBLE says only young people want to argue. It will come with spiritual maturity.


1 Thessalonians 1:10 (ESV)
10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (ESV)
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,


* * * * * * * answer.
Hebrews 3:11-12 (NASB)
11 AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, 'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.'" {Those Left Behind.}
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

* * * * * * * answer.
Revelation 6:15-17 (NASB)
15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains;
16 and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"


There is 7 years between HIS APPEARING IN THE CLOUDS, exactly the same Length of Anti-christ Reign, and HIS SECOND COMING.
We go to Heaven to ESCAPE HIS WRATH, and to attend the Wedding of the LAMB.
Our JOB in the Millennial Kingdom, will be to Reign as Priests of the TEMPLE.

This is not quite true:
It will be a little OVER 7 years.
The Beast's reign is only half the week: 42 months of authority.
Jesus does not show up at the 7th vial that ends the week.

Good post other than these minor things.

 

[lamad]

The only relevant question is how the faith of pre-tribbers will be tested if they live to see the trib.

You guys are so dug in, and without any solid evidence by way of a verse saying that raptured believers go to heaven, I can only imagine how much reality will shake your faith.

That is only half the equasion: How will posttribbers feel when they are left behind because they had no faith in His imminent coming? Especially for posttribbers who have no solid scriptural evidence for a posttrib rapture.

 

[lamad]

The "strike" is on YOU. It's obvious by the order. Do you understand what "order" means?


The words themselves prove which occurs first, whether you are able to comprehend that or not.

Second advent AND our being gathered to Him. One and then the other. But if you can't understand "order" there isnt any use in further discussion.


I did, and you simply demonstrate that you can't comprehend the verse.


What are you talking about? Jesus' first coming was around 3-4 BC as a baby. So He does come only once again. Telling me to "prove it with Scripture" is as faulty as telling me to prove the Trinity by finding a verse with that word in it.


Pitiful. 2 Thess 2:1 shows Christ's Second Coming AND our being gathered to Him. But since your mind has already been made up, you have no room for facts. I understand.


I have already shown your own error. Do your research on how that word is used in other verses.


You just shot another hole in your foot!! When a dictionary/lexicon lists various uses/meanings to a word, the #1 on the list is the most common use. What you have FAILED to do is prove that your second place vote is mandated in 2 Thess 2:1.


Get over it.


Then WHY is the #1 meaning about time? lol


You have just provided proof of delusional thinking.

Your eyes and ears are closed to truth. Obviously.

I find the same kind of truth rejection among Arminians when discussing eternal security and I quote John 10:28 where Jesus said, "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish".

Clearly the basis for never perishing is being given the gift of eternal life. But you should see the outlandish and idiotic arguments they present in denying what the verse very plainly says.

You have no verse about raptured believers going to heaven, and you REJECT the clear verse that says that the rapture is at the Second Advent.

Piece of work.

2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
1 thes 4:
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
It fits 1 Thes 4. They are sister verses. Both are for a pretrib rapture. So your proof is no proof at all - it is only in your imagination.

The words themselves prove which occurs first No one has EVER argued against His coming before the catching up! What are you getting at? How does this order: coming first, gathering next prove ANYTHING? Is this a red herring, meant to draw away from the real issue? Read carefully, all pretribbers believe HIS COMING happens first, then the gathering after. The question people have is, WHEN in relation to all the events in the book of Revelation. You have not proved WHEN. WHEN is His coming as shown in this verse? All you have proved is, "just before the gathering!"

Jesus' first coming was around 3-4 BC as a baby. So He does come only once again. I would say 2 BC, but that is not the timing we are questioning. We are talking about when He will come NEXT. I say pretrib. You say posttrib. I have been trying to get you to prove it.

How do you know He only comes once again. That is part of your proof for a posttrib rapture. So WHERE is your proof? Paul tells of a coming in 1 Thes. 4 and in 2 Thes 2. And John shows a coming in Rev. 19. So perhaps there are THREE more comings? No, Paul's two verses are about ONE coming. It remains up to you to prove this coming FOR His saints is the very same coming as shown in Rev 19. I am out of time

 

[Absolutely]

If you had any scripture that showed that the church would be raptured pretrib, we would have something to talk about.



Look at Matthew 24. The Noah analogy is set post tribulation. In I Thessalonians 1, we see the church is here when Jesus returns to execute vengeance on them that believe not.

"""If you had any scripture that showed that the church would be raptured pretrib, we would have something to talk about."""

Jesus used noah.

You used noah in the OPPOSITE dynamic.

You have Noah and Lot REMOVED AFTER the flood and sodom destroyed.

7 people followed off the cliff.

Too funny

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well, let me ask you this... do you believe what you'd put in your Post #1157, or not:

Not a real smart question. Why would anyone not believe what they put in writing?

[which ^ was a response to...]

What I also said what that the Second Advent is the beginning of the DOTL. How can you disagree with that?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Terrible argument.

OK, we'll see about that.

What PAUL is bringing to the fore (in v.1) is NOT the same item that the false conveyors were "purporting 'IS HERE / IS PRESENT'" (in v.2, i.e. THE JUDGMENTS!)... Paul is CORRECTING such a notion BY MEANS OF his *bringing to the fore* the DISTINCT ITEM (in v.1), and telling how it "FITS" (SEQUENCE-wise / TIME-wise) IN RELATION TO the *other* distinct item that the false conveyors were purporting about as being "HERE / PRESENT" (in v.2)... and he repeats THIS SEQUENCE 3x in the text (btwn v.3 and v.9a)

Terrible argument. It is clear as crystal that "coming of our Lord" refers to the Second Advent of Christ, or, the DOTL.

Your argument falls flat.

Try something else.