Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?
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Which vs is that again please
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=mocker&version=KJV
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=scornful&version=KJV
To clarify, are you demanding a sign? Are you saying that you will not believe I Corinthians 12 which says that the Spirit gifts some members of the body of Christ with the gift of 'working of miracles' unless you see it with your own eyes?
Also, if you look at verse 28, it implies that there are 'miracles' among the gifts/ministries other than 'apostles.'
I have seen quite a bit of footage on YouTube and elsewhere online. There are videos of things like a limp arm being made whole, blind eyes being opened, bones popping into place that you can look up. But I cannot fly around the world and interview people and verify the events. Nor do I care to pour through all the evidence that is out there at your fingertips. There are also plenty of testimonies, and testimony from witnesses is a Biblical form of evidence. Not every miracle or healing is caught on a cell phone camera. What I am familiar with are healings, not water into wine miracles. I cannot think of anything like that that I have seen.
I have never seen a limb grow back. I did go to school with a girl who had severely crossed eyes who had glasses so strong that they magnified her eyes and made them look huge. She was healed and I 'interviewed' her about it, informally I mean in a discussion. An evangelist had laid hands on her. We went to the same church and Christian school. She was a year ahead of me. She was not wearing glasses after the healing and said she did not need her glasses anymore. The results of the healing were very much visibly obvious.
If your position on this is that if someone is healed of something like that through the laying on of hands, but I cannot show you a video specifically of a limb growing back, that God does not heal through the laying on of hands, that does not make much sense.
But based on scripture, I accept the the Spirit gives members of the body of Christ the gift of the working of miracles 'as He wills.' Why? Because I believe the Bible? John MacArthur's convoluted argument is no reason for me to reject the direct teaching of scripture.
You accuse people of having demonic doctrine, twisting scripture, etc., but you yourself do not believe what the Bible teaches about spiritual gifts. You are apparently not familiar with the passages that discuss it since you asked me about chapter 12. My question for you is this, If you are not familiar with the passages of scripture that teach about spiritual gifts in the church, why would you insult and accuse other people for their beliefs on this topic? That is a very brazen thing to do. You should repent and humble yourself and study the Bible on this matter. You should also, as a matter of holiness before the Lord, be careful about accusing others.
Also, if you look at verse 28, it implies that there are 'miracles' among the gifts/ministries other than 'apostles.'
I have seen quite a bit of footage on YouTube and elsewhere online. There are videos of things like a limp arm being made whole, blind eyes being opened, bones popping into place that you can look up. But I cannot fly around the world and interview people and verify the events. Nor do I care to pour through all the evidence that is out there at your fingertips. There are also plenty of testimonies, and testimony from witnesses is a Biblical form of evidence. Not every miracle or healing is caught on a cell phone camera. What I am familiar with are healings, not water into wine miracles. I cannot think of anything like that that I have seen.
I have never seen a limb grow back. I did go to school with a girl who had severely crossed eyes who had glasses so strong that they magnified her eyes and made them look huge. She was healed and I 'interviewed' her about it, informally I mean in a discussion. An evangelist had laid hands on her. We went to the same church and Christian school. She was a year ahead of me. She was not wearing glasses after the healing and said she did not need her glasses anymore. The results of the healing were very much visibly obvious.
If your position on this is that if someone is healed of something like that through the laying on of hands, but I cannot show you a video specifically of a limb growing back, that God does not heal through the laying on of hands, that does not make much sense.
But based on scripture, I accept the the Spirit gives members of the body of Christ the gift of the working of miracles 'as He wills.' Why? Because I believe the Bible? John MacArthur's convoluted argument is no reason for me to reject the direct teaching of scripture.
You accuse people of having demonic doctrine, twisting scripture, etc., but you yourself do not believe what the Bible teaches about spiritual gifts. You are apparently not familiar with the passages that discuss it since you asked me about chapter 12. My question for you is this, If you are not familiar with the passages of scripture that teach about spiritual gifts in the church, why would you insult and accuse other people for their beliefs on this topic? That is a very brazen thing to do. You should repent and humble yourself and study the Bible on this matter. You should also, as a matter of holiness before the Lord, be careful about accusing others.
Why would Jesus fret over the ailments of the flesh. He repeatedly healed people of such ailments.
Many instances of tongues fit what is described in I Corinthians, both the disorderly version and more akin to what Paul recommends, depending on what church it is. But, on occasion, someone speaks in a tongue that someone else present understands. There were numerous accounts of this in the Azusa Street Revival's newsletter 'The Apostolic Faith'. It is possible to find them online, maybe from Flower's library. Anyway, these testimonies were not just from Azusa Street but from revival meetings all over the world. I counted many in just a couple of editions of the newsletter. I remember someone identifying another's tongue as Armenian. A missions director hoped that someone could identify speaking in tongues. He wrote that someone he knew spoke in an Indian language he had learned in his childhood, but she was from the opposite side of the country from where this native language was spoken. Canada is a big place. 'Fire on Azusa' by Val Dez has a testimony about this in Russian. Historian Vinson Synan interviewed participants of the Azusa Street Revival, and one of them said that speaking in tongues in languages of the people, Japanese, etc., is what drew the crowds.
There have been numerous other events. I have spoken with or corresponded with a number of people who testify to either speaking in tongues in a language that was identified by others as a language they knew or hearing 'tongues' in a language they knew. There were testimonies of this sort of thing in the Assemblies of God, also. There was a book in the '70's, 'Spoken by the Spirit' that reported 70 or so similar testimonies.
Many instances of tongues fit what is described in I Corinthians, both the disorderly version and more akin to what Paul recommends, depending on what church it is. But, on occasion, someone speaks in a tongue that someone else present understands. There were numerous accounts of this in the Azusa Street Revival's newsletter 'The Apostolic Faith'. It is possible to find them online, maybe from Flower's library. Anyway, these testimonies were not just from Azusa Street but from revival meetings all over the world. I counted many in just a couple of editions of the newsletter. I remember someone identifying another's tongue as Armenian. A missions director hoped that someone could identify speaking in tongues. He wrote that someone he knew spoke in an Indian language he had learned in his childhood, but she was from the opposite side of the country from where this native language was spoken. Canada is a big place. 'Fire on Azusa' by Val Dez has a testimony about this in Russian. Historian Vinson Synan interviewed participants of the Azusa Street Revival, and one of them said that speaking in tongues in languages of the people, Japanese, etc., is what drew the crowds.
There have been numerous other events. I have spoken with or corresponded with a number of people who testify to either speaking in tongues in a language that was identified by others as a language they knew or hearing 'tongues' in a language they knew. There were testimonies of this sort of thing in the Assemblies of God, also. There was a book in the '70's, 'Spoken by the Spirit' that reported 70 or so similar testimonies.
I'm wondering about your church background. Do you not think that demons exist? Why would a Christian not think demons exist? Where do you think they went after Biblical times?
It seems like it is fairly common among evangelicals, at least, to allow for the idea of demonization to occur. You should consider whether your worldview is actually synchretism between modernism and Christianity or else so-called 'Englightenment' thinking and Christianity.
I'm not sure the exact year, some time in the 1980's, one guy I talked with said he had one cast out of him. He was a Christian musician at the time. Another missionary had a similar experience. He said the minister who prayed for him 'bound' the demon. He had seen the demon and it had attacked him.
I spent many years in Indonesia. I don't think Christians of any denominational background would deny that such things can occur. I used to have a DVD of this guy who was acting crazy and demon possessed while a church was singing and some people were commanding the demon to come out. At the end was a clip of all these amulets that they said fell out of his body. That might have been visible in the clip. Witchdoctors in Indonesia are said to put different things in people's bodies. A tiny rock in a tooth is the most common thing, it seems. Apparently, nails that just go into the skin without piercing it are supposed to be another thing they do. The rock might make the person resistant to injury, they say, or else make the individual attractive to the opposite sex or make people like them. Some of it is probably just nonsupernatural scams, like one woman who took a potion to have a baby, just got fat or retained water from it, and never got pregnant.
I spent a lot of time talking to my driver in Indonesia, hired by my employer. His brother had been in an asylum for mental illness for years. A group in his neighborhood, maybe, invited Daud Tony, who is known for casting out demons over there. I know little about the man and have never even heard a sermon from him, just second-hand stories. He said Daud Tony ministered to his brother-- maybe laid hands on him or something, and his brother was normal after that. I'm not sure if that had anything to do with demons per se or was a healing, but that came to mind. My driver was really excited about it and talked about it quite a bit for a while there before my family moved away.
It seems like it is fairly common among evangelicals, at least, to allow for the idea of demonization to occur. You should consider whether your worldview is actually synchretism between modernism and Christianity or else so-called 'Englightenment' thinking and Christianity.
I'm not sure the exact year, some time in the 1980's, one guy I talked with said he had one cast out of him. He was a Christian musician at the time. Another missionary had a similar experience. He said the minister who prayed for him 'bound' the demon. He had seen the demon and it had attacked him.
I spent many years in Indonesia. I don't think Christians of any denominational background would deny that such things can occur. I used to have a DVD of this guy who was acting crazy and demon possessed while a church was singing and some people were commanding the demon to come out. At the end was a clip of all these amulets that they said fell out of his body. That might have been visible in the clip. Witchdoctors in Indonesia are said to put different things in people's bodies. A tiny rock in a tooth is the most common thing, it seems. Apparently, nails that just go into the skin without piercing it are supposed to be another thing they do. The rock might make the person resistant to injury, they say, or else make the individual attractive to the opposite sex or make people like them. Some of it is probably just nonsupernatural scams, like one woman who took a potion to have a baby, just got fat or retained water from it, and never got pregnant.
I spent a lot of time talking to my driver in Indonesia, hired by my employer. His brother had been in an asylum for mental illness for years. A group in his neighborhood, maybe, invited Daud Tony, who is known for casting out demons over there. I know little about the man and have never even heard a sermon from him, just second-hand stories. He said Daud Tony ministered to his brother-- maybe laid hands on him or something, and his brother was normal after that. I'm not sure if that had anything to do with demons per se or was a healing, but that came to mind. My driver was really excited about it and talked about it quite a bit for a while there before my family moved away.
If you had lower back pain, you would probably be quite happy if the Lord healed it. We should be thankful to God when He heals 'small' ailments. They may not be small to those who have them.
When you read the Gospel do you think, "That's nothing. That's just a woman with an issue of blood. What's a little bleeding?" I do not think that is the proper attitude with which to view a healing.
When you read the Gospel do you think, "That's nothing. That's just a woman with an issue of blood. What's a little bleeding?" I do not think that is the proper attitude with which to view a healing.
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A lot of these things sound like false signs and wonders to me.
Romans 12:2
Romans 12:2
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
Galatians 6:7 7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
And si Jesus will be saying to you one day in the future if you do not tepent from your false religion of satan’s emotional lies that you ate seduced under.....Matthew 7:21-23 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'LORD, LORD,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'LORD, LORD, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
And si Jesus will be saying to you one day in the future if you do not tepent from your false religion of satan’s emotional lies that you ate seduced under.....Matthew 7:21-23 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'LORD, LORD,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'LORD, LORD, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Why do you need the witchcraft of future telling? The scriptures are complete and Jesus warns you of such deceptions and their end.....Matthew 7:21-23 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'LORD, LORD,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'LORD, LORD, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
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...buuut again, here and there say, no lineups of loved ones bringing their lame to be made whole or grieving mothers receiving their babies back from the grave....your faith in these things you claim as fact, that are to be actual manifestations of supernatural events being injected into the here an now? You can’t actually take anyone there, but only claim that over here or over there someone said or saw or did. Why do you need to hold onto such shams?
1st corinthians.....how does this relate to accepted church history from Jesus and his boys, through the early church till now? This you refuse to look into with honest intent of seeking the truth but only to justify the emotional trip’n....you will be judged by Christ for not seeking the truth but instead chasing the easy lies.
I have seen your emotional health coaches try to whip up the crowd of simple folk into a frenzy so that endorphins mask the pain for a short period of time.
What Jesus and his apostles did is not what your bunch of money seeking charlatans seek to fake today. Again, you will be judged for perusing such lies...
Matthew 7:21-24 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'LORD, LORD,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'LORD, LORD, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' 24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
What Jesus and his apostles did is not what your bunch of money seeking charlatans seek to fake today. Again, you will be judged for perusing such lies...
Matthew 7:21-24 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'LORD, LORD,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'LORD, LORD, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' 24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
....you play with words “prophesy isn’t always”, just like satan twisted God’s words in the garden to Eve the serpent said to the woman “Surely you won’t die!”, your being just like him by twisting the meaning of the words. No, you won’t die right this moment Eve, but your sweet innocence is now destroyed!
The nails and rocks in people's bodies is from folk magic, not Christianity. The video I watched had people casting demons out of a guy who was acting wild and crazy. They showed a clip of lots of nails they got from the guy that were supposedly put in his body as 'jimat'-- magic objects. If magicians can turn sticks into snakes with the dark arts, is putting little rocks in people's teeth impossible?
John MacArthur called his own preaching prophesying in one of his old sermons. Would you make the same accusation toward him?
A lot of prophesying in the Old Testament is stuff other than predictions of the future. Read through various prophecies in Isaiah, etc. about this. Prophets spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. Some of it had to do with the state of Israel's heart.
The way the equivalent term was used in Greek included non-future prophecy also. The soldiers who beat Jesus blindfolded him and prophesy who hit him. They asked for supernatural revelation, but not about the future in that instance. Some prophecies in the prophet's writings were about the then-current state of the people's hearts, the secret idolatry they were preforming. Some prophecies were predictions of the future.
A lot of prophesying in the Old Testament is stuff other than predictions of the future. Read through various prophecies in Isaiah, etc. about this. Prophets spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. Some of it had to do with the state of Israel's heart.
The way the equivalent term was used in Greek included non-future prophecy also. The soldiers who beat Jesus blindfolded him and prophesy who hit him. They asked for supernatural revelation, but not about the future in that instance. Some prophecies in the prophet's writings were about the then-current state of the people's hearts, the secret idolatry they were preforming. Some prophecies were predictions of the future.
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