Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?

[presidente]

The statement "The days of signs, wonders, and miracles are over." is a issue of prima facie. Why would he "need" to prove its validity from the Bible or any other reference source?

The problem is with worldview and circular reasoning. There are those who do not have a place in their worldview for miracles, so when they hear or read of testimonies of miracles, they dismiss them as impossible. As I recall, this was basically the kind of circular argument Hume had against miracles, one Keener debunks in his book 'Miracles.' I haven't read it yet, but that was the gist of what he said in a lecture.

Some of us have seen evidence of supernaturally healing, for example, and many other supernatural gifts. Your not having seen it is 'prima facie' evidence of nothing. An analogy Keener used is if a policeman asks people standing around an accident about an accident and someone says, "No accident happened. I did not see it." he would likely ignore that person and ask someone who saw the accident.

"This is a strange false dichotomy, since having faith is intertwined with miracles."

This is not a strange or false dichotomy. Jesus expected faith without miracles in John 20:24-29. Are miracles used to produce faith...of course but faith without miracles is labeled as blessed.

That is a strange use of that passage. Thomas just saw the risen Christ. Jesus did not say those who had not seen miracles and yet had believed were blessed. There was a specific miracle He spoke of-- His own resurrection.

Nor did Christ say anyone was particularly blessed for not seeing miracles or for not seeing His resurrection. The blessing is for believing without seeing Christ resurrected. If you already believe, and you see God do miracles, that takes nothing from you. The passage is not a polemic for nonsupernatural Christianity. The apostles did not have a negative attitude toward the supernatural in Acts. They prayed for God to stretch out His hand to heal and to do signs and wonders for the sake of His Servant Jesus.

 

[presidente]

...signs and wonders....
The bible made the distinction right there, this stuff is simple, your need of manufactured emotional highs is the problem.

Right where? What is the point you are making?

Emotional highs is not the topic we are discussing.

 

[presidente]

You looking for fireworks in your quotes to build you up and yet they are not from us but actually Jesus manifestations of “his” own thing and not something we conjure up ourselves for greatness.

This is word salad. Care to explain what you mean?

 

[presidente]

Skeptics will remain skeptic. Unbelievers will continue in unbelief. Believers will receive and be blessed. God in His divine wisdom has seen fit not to reveal to those who do not want to believe some things so they will have room to remain in unbelief.

It is a faith issue. It is a shame cessationists come up with weak doctrinal excuses not to believe God to give the same sort of gifts He gave in scripture.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

The fact that James tells Christians to go to the elders of the church so that they may pray for healing implies that healing miracles would not continue through miracle workers within the churches, but miracles would come about through prayers (as they continue to do so to this day). Furthermore, you need to study the writings of the Apostolic Fathers to see that not one of them claimed to be an apostle, or a prophets, or a miracle worker. This was shortly after the demise of the apostles.

As I already pointed out, signs, wonders, and miracles accompanied Christ and the apostles. That was a divine necessity. So while He was on earth, people flocked to Him for miracles of healing and the casting out of demons. That was then. If it were true today, we would have Christian miracle workers going out daily into every hospital, and simply healing people and sending them home. Since that is not the case, you have your answer right there.

The instructions to James does more than imply, they are instructions for how the church is to function.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

I think that even if he did provide a video, it would just show a group of church folk doing their programmed thing. Wouldn't prove anything at all.

What I have come to in my thinking is that those who know who Jesus really is wouldn't worry about Cessationism or Continuance, because when we realise how much Jesus really loves us, we would be so immersed in Him that these things would become a non-issue.

I don't think that Jesus really worries about whether folk are Cessationist or Continuists. They would be just religious words to Him - part of "Churchianity". True Christianity is just resting in the love of Jesus, allowing Him to work out His will in us.

The best video that I could think of is of a group of people enjoying themselves and having fun around a fellowship barbecue, talking together about how God has been good to them and expressing thankfulness that God by His grace sent Jesus to die on the cross for them. Then someone would get up, take a slice of bread, break it and say, "This is the Lord's body broken for you" and then hand around buttered slices of bread with their sausages so they could eat and remember the Lord's death until He comes. Then a glass of wine would be lifted up to signify the shed blood of Jesus, and people would filled their glasses and drink a toast to the Blood of Jesus shed for them. Then they would carry on with the fun, laughter and stimulating conversation until it was time to go home.

That would be a video of a true church in action. No ceremony, ritual, programme or anyone in authority "leading" it.

In that context, someone could say, "Hey folks, I want to say something in my prayer language. Can someone interpret for me?" Someone else may agree to interpret, so the short speech in tongues would be made, and then be interpreted so that the group is encouraged and instructed by it. This can happen quite easily in the informal atmosphere of a barbecue and consequently not be anything spooky about it at all.

I think Jesus does indeed care what is said and done in his name.
I also disagree the picture that you are describing is how the church operated.
One only has to read the pastoral epistles to see how things were to be done.

 

[Truth7t7]

It is a faith issue. It is a shame cessationists come up with weak doctrinal excuses not to believe God to give the same sort of gifts He gave in scripture.

I fully believe in the gifts for today, however in 43 years I have yet to personally witness, the biblical operation of these gifts tongues, interpretation, prophesy, healing, etc in genuine Holy Spirit anointed practice.

Does Benny Hinn count?

 

[presidente]

I wonder if Christianity would have been so well established and stood the rest of time if there hadn’t been all of those miraculous deeds signs and wonders accomplished in scripture ?

“And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken. Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

Behold, I and the children whom the Lord hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the Lord of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭8:14-16,

in order for Christianity to be spread through the world it had to first be established immovable so that certain men believed fully .

when Jesus and the apostles were doing miracles it was so people would believe the gospel . I think it’s important to establish the part where God does miracles through believers to the point of spreading the gospel and having people receive it in faith

the establishment of the gospel in such miraculous ways with so many witnesses , assured that they would find the importance of carrying the great commission to the world

I agree with you what’s changed in my view isn’t anything from Gods word but it’s that there is a lack of faith in man now .

without faith even Jesus couldn’t do miracles for people because they didn’t believe. Belief fades when the doctrine is altered and watered down because faith has to be what God said

as we hear less of the true gospel our faith fades

“I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭18:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think we don’t see the workings of the Holy Ghost because we’ve lost faith in the true things

I fully believe in the gifts for today, however in 43 years I have yet to personally witness, the biblical operation of these gifts tongues, interpretation, prophesy, healing, etc in genuine Holy Spirit anointed practice.

Does Benny Hinn count?

Have you ever seen a tongue followed by an interpretation in church?

 

[Truth7t7]

Have you ever seen a tongue followed by an interpretation in church?

I fully believe in the gifts for today, however in 43 years I have yet to personally witness, the biblical operation of these gifts tongues, interpretation, prophesy, healing, etc in genuine Holy Spirit anointed practice.

 

[PaulChristensen]

I think Jesus does indeed care what is said and done in his name.
I also disagree the picture that you are describing is how the church operated.
One only has to read the pastoral epistles to see how things were to be done.

See if you can find any New Testament Scriptures that require fellowship meetings be held in purpose built premises, programmed services, three hymns and a formal sermon, conducted by a one-man-band from the front, with an audience sitting passively in pews. Also find Scriptures that support having a single church leader having sole leadership of a church.
Churchianity is so built into western religious culture that it is very difficult, almost impossible for some to conceive of a church being held as an informal gathering around a barbecue in someone's back yard.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The instructions to James does more than imply, they are instructions for how the church is to function.

The reason I said "implies" is because James did not come right out and say that healing miracle workers would cease.

 

[Evmur]

There are lots of denominations teaching Christianity world wide in the mission fields .

yes yes we read a few souls get saved through their endeavours .... in America the Evangelicals have been flying on the coat tails of the Pentecostalists for decades while at the same time as being their bitterest enemies. Evangelicalism was about dead and buried before the Pentecostals came along.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

yes yes we read a few souls get saved through their endeavours .... in America the Evangelicals have been flying on the coat tails of the Pentecostalists for decades while at the same time as being their bitterest enemies. Evangelicalism was about dead and buried before the Pentecostals came along.

Sorry to have to be the one to tell you, but it's been Baptists, they are to this day the largest protestant church in America, and in the world.

 

[Kolistus]

Does it make a difference if a large part of the Church ignores the gifts of the Holy Spirit?

Yes it does. Quenching of the Spirit can happen and is dangerous

 

[Kolistus]

yes yes we read a few souls get saved through their endeavours .... in America the Evangelicals have been flying on the coat tails of the Pentecostalists for decades while at the same time as being their bitterest enemies. Evangelicalism was about dead and buried before the Pentecostals came along.

This is so true. Pentecostals are running the evangelism scene. Most of the cessationist churches are dusty and their conversions in the past took place through government means. (All state churches like lutheran, catholics, church of england etc. were like this)

 

[Lookupnotback]

Right where? What is the point you are making?

Emotional highs is not the topic we are discussing.

Where is the Jew needed to be present to see the sign of wonder that the time has come for the church age and not just teaching of the word in hebrew, that is what the signs and wonders are all about.

 

[Kolistus]

I fully believe in the gifts for today, however in 43 years I have yet to personally witness, the biblical operation of these gifts tongues, interpretation, prophesy, healing, etc in genuine Holy Spirit anointed practice.

Also true that there are lots of fakers, especially in the tongues department as that is the easiest gift of all to fake (which is why its the most "popular")

 

[presidente]

The reason I said "implies" is because James did not come right out and say that healing miracle workers would cease.

There is no implication there. He did not say that because it is all in your head and you eisegesete the idea in the passage. Since the Bible does not hint that other means of healing would cease before Christ returns, there is no reason to think James intended that or that the original readers would have taken it that way.

 

[Lookupnotback]

It is a faith issue. It is a shame cessationists come up with weak doctrinal excuses not to believe God to give the same sort of gifts He gave in scripture.

Weak? Hahaha....burden of proof is on you my friend as you are walking away from accepted church doctrine in a nee movement based on emotionalism and not what Jesus, the disciples and church fathers have taught all along....you need to probe how your aberrant form of worship is biblical whenbit is not what the bible teaches us. You bits and pieces from the word and twist it to serve your need of “feeling” alive through emotionalism’s seductive lies that hour father of lies would have you led astray with in thinking you are serving God when you are actually serving self and the fallen natures need for emotional trip’n.

 

[Lookupnotback]

This is word salad. Care to explain what you mean?

Your trying to take Jesus supernatural actions and make them your own and not as he did for a sign to the jews that there time was up as spiritual leaders but you want power and renown for yourself and selfish emotional trip’n. Nothing your doing is to give credit and honour to Jesus but instead glorify self.