Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?

[Blackpowderduelist]

You may believe in the gifts, but you perpetuate falsehoods. How about you present some actual evidence supporting your slander. One or two examples won't cut it.

You are welcome to show us different.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

You became a christian through the Pentecostal movement, you and half of America, they are one of the few churches that are saving souls. All Africa has emerged out of the dark ages through the witness of the Pentecostalists ... they are now sending missionaries to England. India is opening it's doors after all these centuries. China is being swept by the Holy Spirit.

I see the same things you do in the western Pentecostal movement, I think it is important to not desert the field but to stay and fight.

There are plenty of good balanced Pentecostal assemblies ... nobody has to chase wildfire.

There are lots of denominations teaching Christianity world wide in the mission fields .

 

[Dino246]

You are welcome to show us different.

Fallacy: burden of proof reversal. The one who makes a claim is obligated to provide the evidence to support it.

 

[Truth7t7]

I asked him to give am example of one doing different than the mainstream ken copeland type but he refused. So we'll there ya go. If he would simply post a video from his church or a similar one there would be something to go on beside what I have witnessed and experienced and seen.

I have been in "Many" Pentecostal gatherings, and my witness is the same

Uncontrolled Chaos, everybody speaking in tongues no interpretation, running around, dancing, rolling on the floor, sad!

 

[Truth7t7]

I became a Christian through a Pentecostal church. And by chance a group I joined was a Pentecostal group. So my earliest Christian years were formed by these beliefs. And at the time I didn't really understand denominations.
I think back and can recall various times I had first experiences related to Pentecostalism and how often my first instinct was to have a negative response. Discomfort. Even fear at times.

I also remember a lot of guilt in this denomination. It seems to be a central theme.

Another issue is, as another user referred to, chasing the emotional high of the "Holy Spirit". These sorts of things lead me to be angry, insecure and always wondering what was wrong with my and why I wasn't good enough in God's eyes if I didn't experience it.
At times I even felt pressured to pretend to be experiencing things when in reality I felt nothing at all.
When I finally understood and made the choice to walk away from these beliefs I felt a huge weight lift off my shoulders. Guilt began to subside. God didn't feel distant. I no longer felt a need to chase an emotional response to "feel saved".

And due to my own experiences, whether "real" or not, it began having a negative effect on my dad's spiritual walk. He, too, began chasing after the "slain in the spirit" feeling, having never felt it before. He began even seeming to be jealous of what was going on in my life, spiritually. And as he again and again lacked these spiritual events in his life, he felt doubt, shame, guilt, etc... same as I did.

I also recall all the false prophets and fake healers being brought in to speak to the church.
And I have since had conversations with others that left this denomination and charismatic beliefs as a whole, whose stories sound nearly identical.

So give all the thumbs down and red x's you want. I became thoroughly convinced that charismatic movements are mentally, spiritually and emotionally damaging. And I've never read a single scripture to refute that. And, in fact, it was scripture that helped me come to this conclusion.

Thanks for your eye witness testimony and experiences concerning (Pentecostalism) mine has been the same when in attendance

You mention mentally, spiritually, and emotionally damaging?

What I have experienced, this would be an understatement.

Once again thanks!

P.S. dont worry about a negative response from the Bully On The Playground, just call for the teacher, she always puts him in the corner

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

Fallacy: burden of proof reversal. The one who makes a claim is obligated to provide the evidence to support it.

I don't think outliers set the standard for the norm. I think it's quite the other way around. So if you have an outlier then it behooves you to present it. From all the evidence I have experience with, and what is presented publically it's safe to say ken copeland, oral roberts and the like represents the norm. Just as it is safe to say Al Muller, and Ed Young represent the norm for Baptists

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

Thanks for your eye witness testimony and experiences concerning (Pentecostalism) mine has been the same when in attendance

You mention mentally, spiritually, and emotionally damaging?

What I have experienced, this would be an understatement.

Once again thanks!

P.S. dont worry about a negative response from the Bully On The Playground, just call for the teacher, she always puts him in the corner

My experience with non-denominational/pentecostal is the same. Controlling and abusive and condemning and manipulative. My wife and have experiences from several different churches where we would leave one and go to another. The good thing is we kept studying and searching the word and found that these churches are out of line, even heterodox, and some even out and out blasphemous.

 

[CS1]

This is the error that Pentecostalism promotes. EVERY CHILD OF GOD HAS BEEN BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT.

The gift of the Spirit is given to each one who repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. During the apostolic period, some Christians were given the spiritual gift of tongues. But not all spoke in tongues. Today's "tongues" are not specific supernaturally spoken foreign languages. They are essentially babblings.

The Greek words glossa, dialektos and glossais should strictly be translated today as "languages" or "dialects". Some translations have done this.

that is funny because there is a difference the baptism in the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. So, your opinion is not correct nor is pentecostalism promotes. Everyone who comes to the saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ has the Holy Spirit in them.

As Jesus said, and the word of God and as the doctrine of those who are of most Pentecostals. Just like Westboro is not a representative of Baptist nor is every person who uses the term pentecostal of the orthodox church. Or and I to assume many of those here who are Bapyist race and yell at dead vert's funeral services?

 

[CS1]

....who is worked up? Or maybe me yes, at the blatant lies held onto by pentecostals in search for meaning through emotionalism’s lies about there being any practical use for a christian to use pagan babble and such? The real question is, if ne needs emotionalism's lies? Me questions their being saved in the 1st place and so that angers me too at satan fooling so many in their service to self and thinking disrespecting the Holy Spirit is looked kindly upon by God? Shows a total lack of understanding of what our Creator’s personality and desires for us is/are.

again your comment did not have one biblical answer to the questions asked of you. Your arrogance and unwillingness to address the Gifts of the Holy Spirit found in 1cor chapter 12 through 14 means and says more about your error than what you perceive as an error with the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

You make a judgment on what you do not know.

it is the foolishness of those like you who think if a person seeks God and ask for the gift of the Holy Spirit as we are instructed to desire in 1cor chapter 12 -14 that

1. we get a devil instead

2. those seeking God and all HE has to offer salvation, fulfillment, and purpose to their life God doesn't answer

The very word of God tells us and so did the Lord Jesus these signs follow them that Believe Marck 16

Paul never said anywhere that we were not to seek the gifts of the Holy Spirit HE taught as HE was lead by the Holy Spirit to do so.

yet I see and many here will take note that you use no scripture in your comments just hate,

but were given the opportunity to provide wherein the word of God does it SAY :

1. THE GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT FOR TODAY
2. where does it say the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased when the bible came to be
3. Those who have used the gifts for money and error that are well rebuked by those here including most all Pentecostals why is it you have not shown us or provided any proof of YOUR OWN Spiritual empowerment?

What have you done in opposition to those you say are not doing what God said in context to the gifts of the Holy Spirit?

What prise-worthy testimony do you have of You praying for someone, leading them to Jesus Christ? You surely must have so wonderful work for the Lord that testify to the Word of God in your life?

Where sin abounded grace did much more abound Please tell us of your God-given victories that produced a work of God that brought him glory?

How many have you led to Jesus? Do you have a prayer ministry? I woud love to hear it.

 

[Dino246]

I don't think outliers set the standard for the norm. I think it's quite the other way around. So if you have an outlier then it behooves you to present it.

Wrong. Read my previous post.

 

[CS1]

...and again, i do hate the father of lies and how he has so many locked-up in emotionalism’s lies through these deceptions he loves to seduce with....just like Eve in the garden are the one’s who want to believe the lie for their own selfish desires sake and building oneself up through a system of emotional trip’n.

I am not the father of lies and please have the courage to say what you mean don't be a coward.

my name is right there CS1 I am a born-again Christian filled with the Holy Spirit Jesu is my Lord, You don't have to allegorize.

Just answer the question in context to the word of God or are you so weak and fearful to speak of the word of God as you claim to know?

Please explain as I have asked you again:

1cor 13:8-10 how is this say that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have stopped and not for today?

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

that is funny because there is a difference the baptism in the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. So, your opinion is not correct nor is pentecostalism promotes. Everyone who comes to the saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ has the Holy Spirit in them.

As Jesus said, and the word of God and as the doctrine of those who are of most Pentecostals. Just like Westboro is not a representative of Baptist nor is every person who uses the term pentecostal of the orthodox church. Or and I to assume many of those here who are Bapyist race and yell at dead vert's funeral services?

This is a non sequitur. Westboro is clearly an outlier, and examples of the mainstream norm have been provided. Mohler , Young they are along with many other very public ministries do exemplify the mainstream baptist church.
You on the other hand have not provided any examples of the Pentecostal church that are not what the public ministries have exemplified. It's not hard to show us something different than what we have seen and experienced for ourselves. You say there is something different than copeland, roberts, duplantis, I myself have asked you to show us, but you have refused.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

Wrong. Read my previous post.

That's fine, I'll just understand you don't have anything and will continue to know what I have experienced and seen, and what is presented as the mainstream in the public.

 

[Dino246]

That's fine, I'll just understand you don't have anything and will continue to know what I have experienced and seen, and what is presented as the mainstream in the public.

Your assumption is irrelevant and your conclusion is invalid. I am under no obligation to provide evidence contrary to someone else's claim before they provide evidence to support it. However, you seem content in your self-justification, so I'll leave you there.

 

[PaulChristensen]

....who is worked up? Or maybe me yes, at the blatant lies held onto by pentecostals in search for meaning through emotionalism’s lies about there being any practical use for a christian to use pagan babble and such? The real question is, if ne needs emotionalism's lies? Me questions their being saved in the 1st place and so that angers me too at satan fooling so many in their service to self and thinking disrespecting the Holy Spirit is looked kindly upon by God? Shows a total lack of understanding of what our Creator’s personality and desires for us is/are.

My question to you is this: Do you know who Jesus really is?

 

[PaulChristensen]

I asked him to give am example of one doing different than the mainstream ken copeland type but he refused. So we'll there ya go. If he would simply post a video from his church or a similar one there would be something to go on beside what I have witnessed and experienced and seen.

I think that even if he did provide a video, it would just show a group of church folk doing their programmed thing. Wouldn't prove anything at all.

What I have come to in my thinking is that those who know who Jesus really is wouldn't worry about Cessationism or Continuance, because when we realise how much Jesus really loves us, we would be so immersed in Him that these things would become a non-issue.

I don't think that Jesus really worries about whether folk are Cessationist or Continuists. They would be just religious words to Him - part of "Churchianity". True Christianity is just resting in the love of Jesus, allowing Him to work out His will in us.

The best video that I could think of is of a group of people enjoying themselves and having fun around a fellowship barbecue, talking together about how God has been good to them and expressing thankfulness that God by His grace sent Jesus to die on the cross for them. Then someone would get up, take a slice of bread, break it and say, "This is the Lord's body broken for you" and then hand around buttered slices of bread with their sausages so they could eat and remember the Lord's death until He comes. Then a glass of wine would be lifted up to signify the shed blood of Jesus, and people would filled their glasses and drink a toast to the Blood of Jesus shed for them. Then they would carry on with the fun, laughter and stimulating conversation until it was time to go home.

That would be a video of a true church in action. No ceremony, ritual, programme or anyone in authority "leading" it.

In that context, someone could say, "Hey folks, I want to say something in my prayer language. Can someone interpret for me?" Someone else may agree to interpret, so the short speech in tongues would be made, and then be interpreted so that the group is encouraged and instructed by it. This can happen quite easily in the informal atmosphere of a barbecue and consequently not be anything spooky about it at all.

 

[Dino246]

P.S. dont worry about a negative response from the Bully On The Playground, just call for the teacher, she always puts him in the corner

Obviously you don't have the stones to address me directly, but skulk around spreading slander instead.

Coward.

 

[presidente]

The fact that James tells Christians to go to the elders of the church so that they may pray for healing implies that healing miracles would not continue through miracle workers within the churches, but miracles would come about through prayers (as they continue to do so to this day).

That is a lame and silly argument. James was probably one of the earlier books written, written before I Corinthians which says some members of the body of Christ were gifted with gifts of healing. James shows that Christians can be healed through elders anointing the sick or through saints praying confessing sins to one another and praying through one another. That in no way detracts from the teaching of scripture that the Spirit gifts some members of the body of Christ with gifts of healing, or that God can heal through evangelists and such.

You are reading scripture with a presupposition that parts of it will not always be true. There is nothing in James that implies that idea about I Corinthians. This is eisegesis on your part.

Furthermore, you need to study the writings of the Apostolic Fathers to see that not one of them claimed to be an apostle, or a prophets, or a miracle worker. This was shortly after the demise of the apostles.

I do not think you have read all of these writings yourself. Justin wrote that there were prophets in the church. Hermas wrote of prophecies going on in church meetings. Ireneaus wrote of brethren among the saints who prophesied, spoke in tongues, healed the sick, raised the dead, cast out demons, etc. He considered rejecting prophecy and the edification that came through it to be a characteristic of the heresies. Eusebius recorded numerous writings of believers of previous centuries. One of these, Miltiades, criticized the Montanists, who thought prophecy ended with the death of Montanus and his two female assistance. He challenged them to produce a prophet, and argued that the apostle wrote that prophecy would continue in the church until the Lord returned. The early cessationists may have been Montanists.

As I already pointed out, signs, wonders, and miracles accompanied Christ and the apostles. That was a divine necessity. So while He was on earth, people flocked to Him for miracles of healing and the casting out of demons. That was then. If it were true today, we would have Christian miracle workers going out daily into every hospital, and simply healing people and sending them home. Since that is not the case, you have your answer right there.

Since Jesus did not go clear out hospitals, as far as we see in scripture, there is a problem with your argument. If the Pool of Siloam were the cultural equivalent of a hospital, notice He healed one man there. Hospitals today are locked down and people are not be free to go in and lay hands on everyone. If healings are not happening on the scale you describe, that does not mean that they do not happen at all. There are multitudes of accounts of historical and contemporary miracles. Bible scholar Craig Keener filled up 1200 pages of a book on the subject a while back.

Btw, your argument seems to rely on experience, not the doctrine of scripture. Your approach seems to be to reinterpret scripture to fit your experience or lack thereof.

 

[presidente]

No. They get lost in their specialness and do not see their actions to varying degrees are no different than those getting waisted in a bar singing and dancing to loud music and under the influence of drugs n’ alcohol, degrading themselves into sex on the floor.

I have never seen any Charismatics using drugs and alcohol and having sex on the floor in any meeting I have been in. Maybe you went to the wrong kind of group.

All the time thinking they are using gifts that were primarily meant for a judgement against the Jews

Jesus healed a lot of Jews. Where do you get that signs were 'primarily meant for judgment against the Jews'? Saul of Tarsus declared Elymas blind, and Sergius Paulus believed after he saw that. How was the healing of the lame man in Lystra meant as judgment against the Jews? Paul and Barnabas reported the miracles they did among the Gentiles. From one perspective, Gentiles being reconciled in this age is to provoke the Jews to jealousy. Since God gifting Gentile Christians (not exclusively Gentile Christians of course) with certain gifts is part of His overall workings with us, that may have a part to play in provoking the Jews to jealousy, but the way you worded it seems to be your opinion, not anything that can reasonably derived from scripture.

 

[Truth7t7]

It is all the things God pours out on us like grace, peace, long suffering, joy despite the circumstance, understanding of his word....there is so much more and practical gifts the Holy Spirit brings into us. The charismatics always get caught up in supernatural fireworks things to try and build up their lack of self-esteem and suckered by their emotions by the deceivers lies, always needing emotional trip’n fresh jolts of some perceived pouring out upon them of magic that is especially for the chosen few, but is that ever honestly addressed? No. They get lost in their specialness and do not see their actions to varying degrees are no different than those getting waisted in a bar singing and dancing to loud music and under the influence of drugs n’ alcohol, degrading themselves into sex on the floor. All the time thinking they are using gifts that were primarily meant for a judgement against the Jews and their pride in their laws and “real” or genuine gifts, not the enthusiasms the charismatics works themselves into.....i have been amongst You guys and seen your empty lives, the church's are nothing more than emotional trip’n worship centres be it swinging from the rafters or quietly holding hand in a circle mumbling away like a turkey, the movement is blinded by fake emotionalism’s.

The movement is blinded by fake emotionalism?

From what I have personally seen and witnessed, I Agree 100%