50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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Just to refresh our memories tell us how the man of sin fits into your version of the end times.What is that Greek word (Apostasia)?
Is The Greek Word (Apostasia) A Rapture Of The Church To Heaven? (No)
The Greek "Apostasia"
(Departure/Falling Away) isn't a Pre-Trib Rapture Of The Church To Heaven, it's that simple
Apostasia: (Defection From Truth) (Apostasy) (Falling Away) (Forsake) Who You Trying To Fool (Yourself)
Lexicon :: Strong's G646 - apostasia
Strong’s Definitions
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.
KJV Translation Count — Total: 2x
The KJV translates Strong's G646 in the following manner: to forsake (with G575) (1x), falling away (1x).
2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Come to think of it (based on what you've already told us), this one indisputable fact alone, that being: the man of sin must needs be "revealed" destroys your entire end time eschatological thesis.
What are you saying ^ here ^ ? (about v.2):
[some examples to choose from (corresponding to your comment above^ )... that Paul is conveying in v.2... as though Paul is saying to them...]
--"don't be persuaded by anyone trying to tell you Thessalonians that 'the gathering to Christ' has already happened, even though there is absolutely NO evidence of such a thing surrounding you [past or present], in that, absolutely NO ONE anywhere has been 'caught-up/-away,' and the 'aftermath' of such a monumental event is ALSO nowhere in evidence around you! But I just thought I'd write you this second epistle[!] to not be 'deceived' by such an idea which is floating around out there,... oh, and don't either be persuaded by anyone telling you that a big, purple Barney-figure is floating around outside y'all's windows at dusk... don't be 'deceived' by that kind of talk either. Instead, believe what *we* taught you. Just thought I'd take time to say that, to y'all! No real reason! But, anyway, TTYL!"
--"don't be persuaded by anyone trying to tell you Thessalonians that 'Christ Himself has already come'... I know I have to tell you (really stooopid) Thessalonians such a thing, but, erm, now that *I* have told you to BE AWARE of anyone trying to tell you such a thing is true, I know you won't 'fall for such deception[!]'... I know, no problem, I don't mind being your hero in informing you that 'what they said' cannot be true! Glad I could help you (really stooopid people), coz you don't want to live life being persuaded by false conveyors of such obviously [very apparently-] incorrect ideas. Glad to be 'at your service'. TTYL!"
--something else along these lines... ______________ (you fill in the blank, as to WHAT v.2's POINT IS)
Pretty much so.
I think he also said something like " remember i already told you theses things" ......or something like that.
that was my point earlier.
He is not revealed at the timeframe they are trying to make EVERYTHING END TIMES FUNNEL INTO.
They want their machine shop press to cram every single thing into horses decending from heaven blackening the sky.
Every item needs to be crammed into a 7 minute time frame.
Oh
And Jesus on a cloud harvesting is not Jesus on a cloud harvesting Jews.
He has no sickle, is not sitting on a cloud, and the firstfruit Jews are not connected to a Jewish harvest.
We cant even say it is during the gt. We can only say it is AFTER.
... All due to postrib superior interpretation.
I suppose the bride becoming the wife in heaven is somehow in need of reframing also.
( i did cue the sarc button...lol)
And Jesus on a cloud harvesting is not Jesus on a cloud harvesting Jews.
He has no sickle, is not sitting on a cloud, and the firstfruit Jews are not connected to a Jewish harvest.
We cant even say it is during the gt. We can only say it is AFTER.
... All due to postrib superior interpretation.
I suppose the bride becoming the wife in heaven is somehow in need of reframing also.
( i did cue the sarc button...lol)
The really important bit for our discussion is that we know the man of sin is the anti-Christ. The anti-Christ appears during the great tribulation. We agree on that much right?
So if the day of Christ (and our gathering to Him) does not come until after the anti-Christ is revealed then how do you propose a pre-tribulation gathering to Christ?
That's basically my criticism as well. The inevitable and necessary revealing of the man of sin (and all that this entails) does not concatenate with their flash bang end time scenario.
I hope everyone can recognize that so far on this thread it is obvious that the post tribbers are holding an empty bag. A mashup of shoddy scholarship, willful ignorance, generic ignorance, and probably the influence of bad Churches harboring false prophets.
Go back to page 1 and start reading all the way to the present if you're confused. The reasoning and explanation we have provided is Biblical it's complete and therefore indisputable. Stated many times many places in many ways.
There is no way I'm going to allow you to simply reset the breaker and start this thread over from nothing.
The thing is...
one should actually grasp what it is that Paul is SAYING in v.3a... in response to the thing in v.2... and it AIN'T ^ THAT ^ (in the bold).
My advice is to really zero in on these two verses first, read it to yourself again and again,
--determine WHAT IT IS that the false conveyors were SAYING (not what you've put ^ ),
--bearing in mind the Greek grammar thing about "perfect [tense] indicative" having to do with "time," as in, [something being] "ALREADY here" (being purported to be, that is)... WHAT were the false conveyors SAYING is "ALREADY HERE" and is playing out in the present time of their own setting and very troublesome circumstances they then/at that time were enduring (1:4)...
--consider WHAT is it that they could be EASILY be persuaded was TRUE (but which wasn't, and required a letter from Paul to supply a CORRECTIVE to their distraught minds, thus COMFORTING them in being REMINDED of "what WE taught you" v.15 [and exhorting not to believe THEM/the false conveyors, v.2!]); WHAT WAS IT the false conveyors were SAYING in v.2b... coz it isn't as you suggest at the quote of yours top... NO false conveyors were talking to them ABOUT *THAT* (as tho trying to convince the Thessalonians *THAT* is what "IS ALREADY HERE" per v.2... as though something such as that could have been anywhere NEAR "convincing" to these folks... We would really have to think the Thessalonians were dumber-than-a-door-knob, that we would even dare to think Paul needed to write them an entire letter cautioning them to NOT BE DECEIVED by ppl SAYING such a thing as that. NO!)
Getting v.2 right (what is ACTUALLY being said in that verse) will then aid one in grasping what Paul is actually conveying in response to such (v.3 and following)... which "fits" the entire context and setting/experiences which they were actually living in, not things which had no relation whatsoever to the reality they were living in, and requiring a letter from Paul to address with them!
Verse 2 is NOT about "our gathering" (what you said at top ^ )... but what the false conveyors were SAYING had already arrived and was playing out in their present experience. Ponder that deeply, and Paul's answer (and entire letter) will begin to come clearly into focus as to what he's actually writing to the Thessalonians, and why.
This is a continuation of the current discussion. The natural conclusion is to provide an answer your overall thesis that there is a pre-tribulation.
I have an answer for post-tribulation rapture and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 provides scriptural support for the coming of Christ and our gathering to Him occuring after the anti-Christ is revealed.
In light of that, I just want to know what you're hanging onto that definitively states pre-trib rapture.
I'll take your deflection as that you don't have a good Biblical answer, but don't want to cede pre-tribulation is false either.
The question was plain. How do you put the coming of Jesus Christ and our gathering to Him prior to the man of sin being revealed?
"""I have an answer for post-tribulation rapture and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 provides scriptural support for the coming of Christ and our gathering to Him occuring after the anti-Christ is revealed."""
You just said revealed.
You are saying revealed. You are also saying "revealed at the end of the gt" and are unaware you are saying that.
Most likely because you are pre occupied with an ASSUMPTION we are wrong.
You are doing what you say the other side is doing.
You are saying " the thing restraining will restrain the entire gt and AFTER the gt the ac is revealed"
The word "revealed" is so against everything you believe.
Because you need the entire end times events funneled into the closing moments if horses decending from heaven
You just said revealed.
You are saying revealed. You are also saying "revealed at the end of the gt" and are unaware you are saying that.
Most likely because you are pre occupied with an ASSUMPTION we are wrong.
You are doing what you say the other side is doing.
You are saying " the thing restraining will restrain the entire gt and AFTER the gt the ac is revealed"
The word "revealed" is so against everything you believe.
Because you need the entire end times events funneled into the closing moments if horses decending from heaven
Paul, in vv.2-3, is addressing the issue of what the false conveyors were SAYING "has ALREADY ARRIVED/is HERE" (and those false conveyors were NOT talking about: "His Coming" / "our gathering" [<--PAUL is bringing THAT issue to the table in this letter (per v.1 among others), in view of the what the FALSIES were saying "IS ALREADY HERE!"<---WHAT IS THAT??]).
As long as you *miss* what the point of verse 2 is (and you are!), you'll not grasp the entire rest of what Paul is conveying here in this context.
Verse 2 -
[LISTING from BibleHub]
New International Version
not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us--whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter--asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
New Living Translation
Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.
English Standard Version
not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
Berean Study Bible
not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come.
New American Standard Bible
that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
NASB 1995
that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
NASB 1977
that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
Amplified Bible
not to be quickly unsettled or alarmed either by a [so-called prophetic revelation of a] spirit or a message or a letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] come.
Christian Standard Bible
not to be easily upset or troubled, either by a prophecy or by a message or by a letter supposedly from us, alleging that the day of the Lord has come.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come.
Good News Translation
not to be so easily confused in your thinking or upset by the claim that the Day of the Lord has come. Perhaps it is thought that we said this while prophesying or preaching, or that we wrote it in a letter.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Don't get upset right away or alarmed when someone claims that we said through some spirit, conversation, or letter that the day of the Lord has already come.
International Standard Version
not to be so quickly upset or alarmed when someone claims that we said, either by some spirit, conversation, or letter that the Day of the Lord has already come.
NET Bible
not to be easily shaken from your composure or disturbed by any kind of spirit or message or letter allegedly from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.
New Heart English Bible
not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of the Lord had come.
Darby Bible Translation
that ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as [if it were] by us, as that the day of the Lord is present.
English Revised Version
to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is now present;
Literal Standard Version
that you are not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us, as that the Day of the LORD has arrived;
Berean Literal Bible
for you not quickly to be shaken in mind, nor to be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as if by us, as that day of the Lord is present.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
That you would not be soon shaken in your minds, neither be troubled, either from word, nor from a spirit, neither from an epistle that is as if from us, namely, that, “Behold, The Day of our Lord has arrived.”
Godbey New Testament
that you be not suddenly shaken from your mind, nor disturbed, whether by a spirit, or through word, or a letter as by us, as that the day of the Lord has come.
Weymouth New Testament
not readily to become unsettled in mind or troubled--either by any pretended spiritual revelation or by any message or letter claiming to have been sent by us--through fancying that the day of the Lord is now here.
Worrell New Testament
that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, as that the day of the Lord has set in.
____________
[something CONSISTENT with their PRESENT and ONGOING, very negative circumstances they were ENDURING, per 1:4... i.e. completely [and deceivably] BELIEVEABLE!]
[LISTING from BibleHub]
New International Version
not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us--whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter--asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
New Living Translation
Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.
English Standard Version
not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
Berean Study Bible
not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come.
New American Standard Bible
that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
NASB 1995
that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
NASB 1977
that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
Amplified Bible
not to be quickly unsettled or alarmed either by a [so-called prophetic revelation of a] spirit or a message or a letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] come.
Christian Standard Bible
not to be easily upset or troubled, either by a prophecy or by a message or by a letter supposedly from us, alleging that the day of the Lord has come.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come.
Good News Translation
not to be so easily confused in your thinking or upset by the claim that the Day of the Lord has come. Perhaps it is thought that we said this while prophesying or preaching, or that we wrote it in a letter.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Don't get upset right away or alarmed when someone claims that we said through some spirit, conversation, or letter that the day of the Lord has already come.
International Standard Version
not to be so quickly upset or alarmed when someone claims that we said, either by some spirit, conversation, or letter that the Day of the Lord has already come.
NET Bible
not to be easily shaken from your composure or disturbed by any kind of spirit or message or letter allegedly from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.
New Heart English Bible
not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of the Lord had come.
Darby Bible Translation
that ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as [if it were] by us, as that the day of the Lord is present.
English Revised Version
to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is now present;
Literal Standard Version
that you are not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us, as that the Day of the LORD has arrived;
Berean Literal Bible
for you not quickly to be shaken in mind, nor to be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as if by us, as that day of the Lord is present.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
That you would not be soon shaken in your minds, neither be troubled, either from word, nor from a spirit, neither from an epistle that is as if from us, namely, that, “Behold, The Day of our Lord has arrived.”
Godbey New Testament
that you be not suddenly shaken from your mind, nor disturbed, whether by a spirit, or through word, or a letter as by us, as that the day of the Lord has come.
Weymouth New Testament
not readily to become unsettled in mind or troubled--either by any pretended spiritual revelation or by any message or letter claiming to have been sent by us--through fancying that the day of the Lord is now here.
Worrell New Testament
that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, as that the day of the Lord has set in.
____________
[something CONSISTENT with their PRESENT and ONGOING, very negative circumstances they were ENDURING, per 1:4... i.e. completely [and deceivably] BELIEVEABLE!]
Paul addresses their concerns about what the deceivers were saying with relevant points. His response was telling them the apostasy will occur first and the man of sin revealed then the day of Christ will be at hand. That's what it says.
When you respond to this question (noted in the link below) with an honest answer.......then and only then will we pick up this conversation and move forward. No more games no more stunts no more backpedaling........just answer the question.
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...r-john-f-walvoord.198357/page-34#post-4535297
Yes.....
All the while ignoring the seminal prerequisite OT prophecies upon which the identity and purpose of the "man of sin" hinges, also the future destiny likewise disclosed. A destiny so detailed in Scripture that you can literally count the months years and days infallably.
Let me ask you this:
Are you saying ^ (in that quote) ^ that there are TWO ITEMS (or, points in time) that happen SEQUENTIALLY?
Or are you saying that there are THREE ITEMS (points in time) that happen SEQUENTIALLY?
IOW, which of the following is it that you are saying:
[the sequence]
1) the apostasy will occur FIRST (with no one really having any idea of WHAT "marks" the time-period which supposedly CAUSES this, in their "reaction")
2) [THEN] the man of sin will be revealed, and with it [/AT WHICH TIME], the day of Christ will [thus] "be present" (or JUST "AT HAND" still?<--even though the Grk wording does NOT support such), at that same time
OR
1) the apostasy will occur FIRST (with no one really having any idea of WHAT "marks" the time-period which supposedly CAUSES this, in their "reaction")
2) [THEN] the man of sin will be revealed (at what you believe is) the 2:4 "OPPOSETH... EXALTETH... SITTETH in the temple of God" (when there is still approx "42 mos" remaining till the end of trib)
3) [THEN] AFTER ALL of the "42 mos" are completely spent, THEN "the day of Christ" will "BE PRESENT" (or still "AT HAND," according to you) which is the thing (according to your view) the "false conveyors" had been SAYING "IS ALREADY HERE" in the Thessalonians' day (which will include, according to you, the 'caught-up / 'caught-away' / 'SNATCH' / harpazo / 'rapture' / 'our gathering-together [noun-event] UNTO HIM' / 'delivering us OUT-FROM the wrath COMING' / etc...)
So, why do you believe the false conveyors would be SAYING such a thing TO the Thessalonians?
And why do you believe Paul found it necessary to WRITE a corrective and cautionary LETTER to them, which TOOK SUBSTANTIAL "TIME" (so that they don't let such an untruth "deceive" them or to "trouble" their minds, even though NOTHING in their present-day experiences gave them any reason to BELIEVE such a falsehood that Jesus Himself "IS ALREADY HERE" could even be remotely true, as though this is what v.2 is SAYING [it's NOT]).
Help me out, here, because I'm just not seeing THAT being THE POINT of vv.2-3, at all.
Yes.....Let me ask you this:
Are you saying ^ (in that quote) ^ that there are TWO ITEMS (or, points in time) that happen SEQUENTIALLY?
Or are you saying that there are THREE ITEMS (points in time) that happen SEQUENTIALLY?
IOW, which of the following is it that you are saying:
[the sequence]
1) the apostasy will occur FIRST (with no one really having any idea of WHAT "marks" the time-period which supposedly CAUSES this, in their "reaction")
2) [THEN] the man of sin will be revealed, and with it [/AT WHICH TIME], the day of Christ will [thus] "be present" (or JUST "AT HAND" still?<--even though the Grk wording does NOT support such), at that same time
OR
1) the apostasy will occur FIRST (with no one really having any idea of WHAT "marks" the time-period which supposedly CAUSES this, in their "reaction")
2) [THEN] the man of sin will be revealed (at what you believe is) the 2:4 "OPPOSETH... EXALTETH... SITTETH in the temple of God" (when there is still approx "42 mos" remaining till the end of trib)
3) [THEN] AFTER ALL of the "42 mos" are completely spent, THEN "the day of Christ" will "BE PRESENT" (or still "AT HAND," according to you) which is the thing (according to your view) the "false conveyors" had been SAYING "IS ALREADY HERE" in the Thessalonians' day (which will include, according to you, the 'caught-up / 'caught-away' / 'SNATCH' / harpazo / 'rapture' / 'our gathering-together [noun-event] UNTO HIM' / 'delivering us OUT-FROM the wrath COMING' / etc...)
So, why do you believe the false conveyors would be SAYING such a thing TO the Thessalonians?
And why do you believe Paul found it necessary to WRITE a corrective and cautionary LETTER to them, which TOOK SUBSTANTIAL "TIME" (so that they don't let such an untruth "deceive" them or to "trouble" their minds, even though NOTHING in their present-day experiences gave them any reason to BELIEVE such a falsehood that Jesus Himself "IS ALREADY HERE" could even be remotely true, as though this is what v.2 is SAYING [it's NOT]).
Help me out, here, because I'm just not seeing THAT being THE POINT of vv.2-3, at all.
Paul is saying that it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to be in the midst of TDOTL.......a fact of which the Thessalonians were earlier assured but simply lost their confidence. Paul then reiterates his earlier verbal teaching on the matter, comforting them with the fact that THE separation, THE departure (from the time AND PROXIMITY of God's wrath, "the hour of trial coming upon the whole world" Rev 3:10 inaugurated by the revealing of the man of sin) will certainly occur before the tribulation ever begins.