50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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Your Suggested Claim Of The Church (Departing) To Heaven In A Pre-Trib Rapture Is (False)
(Apostasia) A Falling Away Or Defection From Truth Once Held (Apostasy)
Strong’s Definitions
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.
2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
(Apostasia) A Falling Away Or Defection From Truth Once Held (Apostasy)
Strong’s Definitions
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.
2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
What I am asking is, according to your view (as expressed in these past two posts), what are you saying marks the start of [what you call] "the great tribulation," which is (according to how I understand your view) the thing which will cause "pre-tribbers" to "apostasize" because they weren't raptured beforehand... I'm asking, "before WHAT?" What is it, according to you, that marks the fact that "the great tribulation" has arrived [will have arrived] and that they are now IN it and EXPERIENCING it. What is that thing / point-in-time? What marks its "beginning point," according to you ... since this is what causes "the falling away," b/c they've not been raptured by that point, as expected, according to you? 
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Your claim is (False)
Your Suggested Claim Of The Church (Departing) To Heaven In A Pre-Trib Rapture Is (False)
(Apostasia) A Falling Away Or Defection From Truth Once Held (Apostasy)
Strong’s Definitions
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.
2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Your Suggested Claim Of The Church (Departing) To Heaven In A Pre-Trib Rapture Is (False)
(Apostasia) A Falling Away Or Defection From Truth Once Held (Apostasy)
Strong’s Definitions
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.
2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
What I am asking is, according to your view (as expressed in these past two posts), what are you saying marks the start of [what you call] "the great tribulation," which is (according to how I understand your view) the thing which will cause "pre-tribbers" to "apostasize" because they weren't raptured beforehand... I'm asking, "before WHAT?" What is it, according to you, that marks the fact that "the great tribulation" has arrived [will have arrived] and that they are now IN it and EXPERIENCING it. What is that thing / point-in-time? What marks its "beginning point," according to you ... since this is what causes "the falling away," b/c they've not been raptured by that point, as expected, according to you?
Again, the first SEVEN English translations, before the kjv existed, translated it either as "[a] departing" (noun) or "departure"... here's just one of those:
Geneva Bible of 1587 -
"Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,"
I was taught this fact by my pastor way back in the 70s, that this was the case (about "versions" prior to the kjv, saying this ^ ).
I'm uncertain what other point you are making here. Are you suggesting that only the "post-tribbers" have provided Greek scholars' work, and that the "pre-tribbers" are simply "making stuff up" off the top of our heads in order to cling to our (supposedly) deluded ideas of "pre-trib"??
(btw, I do disagree with a great deal of "Abs' unique viewpoints," just to be clear )
How do you explain that [7] English translations PRIOR to the kjv's existence, translated the word as "[a] departing" or "departure" (if we supposedly "made up" such an idea so it would "fit" our "narrative")? Is this what you are suggesting, or what? I don't get it.
Geneva Bible of 1587 -
"Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,"
I was taught this fact by my pastor way back in the 70s, that this was the case (about "versions" prior to the kjv, saying this ^ ).
I'm uncertain what other point you are making here. Are you suggesting that only the "post-tribbers" have provided Greek scholars' work, and that the "pre-tribbers" are simply "making stuff up" off the top of our heads in order to cling to our (supposedly) deluded ideas of "pre-trib"??
(btw, I do disagree with a great deal of "Abs' unique viewpoints," just to be clear
)How do you explain that [7] English translations PRIOR to the kjv's existence, translated the word as "[a] departing" or "departure" (if we supposedly "made up" such an idea so it would "fit" our "narrative")? Is this what you are suggesting, or what? I don't get it.
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Thanks So Very Much Appreciated - God Bless you RICHLY! ♫ 😇 ↑
Thanks So Very Much Appreciated - God Bless you RICHLY! ♫ 😇 ↑
that is what they want.
just keep going concept vs concept.
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His quote below is self explanatory, 2 Thess 2:3 is about the end time (Apostasy) and your teaching is part of the delusion in deception, simple.
Quote Running Man:
2 Thessalonians 2:3 is referring to an end times prophecy of the great apostasy, defection from the truth, of the church, before Jesus returns . I think pre-tribulation rapture theology fits that ticket.
The pre-tribulation rapture theology appeared fairly recently on the scene and it's an end times deception, one of the many false teachings that will characterize the end times.
1 Timothy 4:1
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
The great tribulation will come just as prophecied, but there will be no rapture before Jesus comes.
I speculate that will most likely make a lot of people in the church disillusioned or angry enough to commit apostasy. It would be a great apostasy.
Quote Running Man:
2 Thessalonians 2:3 is referring to an end times prophecy of the great apostasy, defection from the truth, of the church, before Jesus returns . I think pre-tribulation rapture theology fits that ticket.
The pre-tribulation rapture theology appeared fairly recently on the scene and it's an end times deception, one of the many false teachings that will characterize the end times.
1 Timothy 4:1
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
The great tribulation will come just as prophecied, but there will be no rapture before Jesus comes.
I speculate that will most likely make a lot of people in the church disillusioned or angry enough to commit apostasy. It would be a great apostasy.
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Hold your horses. How in the world are Christians going to be disillusioned about being in the midst of the tribulation before it even starts? The man of sin being revealed is the very beginning of the Tribulation.
When you find a Bible that says the man of sin is to be revealed first (proton) , and then the great apostasy you let me know!
When you find a Bible that says the man of sin is to be revealed first (proton) , and then the great apostasy you let me know!
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In 2 Thess. 2:3 a different word is used than the one you quoted and it does matter. The translators of this this verse used this word for "falling away" or "departure:
Strong’s Definitions
G646 ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.
2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Strong’s Definitions
G646 ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.
2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
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Those who believe in pre-trib will be disillusioned because by the time the great trib is in full mark of the beast mode the rapture still won't have happened.
The verse you're looking for is the one we've been looking at all along. It's 2 Thess. 2:3. The falling away happens first and then the man of sin is revealed. The falling away is a prerequisite to the man of sin being revealed.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
The verse you're looking for is the one we've been looking at all along. It's 2 Thess. 2:3. The falling away happens first and then the man of sin is revealed. The falling away is a prerequisite to the man of sin being revealed.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
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You misrepresent his statement, no place did he suggest that the apostasy starts "After" the tribulation starts
He has openly posted that the apostasy comes first, then the man of sin is revealed, just as the scripture teaches
Quote Runningman:
2 Thessalonians 2:3 is referring to an end times prophecy of the great apostasy, defection from the truth, of the church, before Jesus returns . I think pre-tribulation rapture theology fits that ticket.
He has openly posted that the apostasy comes first, then the man of sin is revealed, just as the scripture teaches
Quote Runningman:
2 Thessalonians 2:3 is referring to an end times prophecy of the great apostasy, defection from the truth, of the church, before Jesus returns . I think pre-tribulation rapture theology fits that ticket.
So, according to what you've written in the last several posts, "the great tribulation will come just as prophesied"... and (according to your scenario) whatever it is that makes the "pre-tribbers" AWARE that it HAS COME/ARRIVED, this will trigger their "apostasy / falling away from the faith" FIRST (b/c they find they've not be "raptured" as expected); AND THEN, after that, the man of sin will be revealed.
I'm asking you... WHAT is it that will make the "pre-tribbers" AWARE (not to mention, everyone else be made aware) that "the great tribulation has come/arrived" and that they are IN it and experiencing it?
WHAT MARKS its ARRIVAL, according to your viewpoint as you are explaining it? (I'm missing that piece of your "picture / explanation".)
I know, clearly, what it is in *my* (pre-trib) scenario (for this is what Paul is conveying, which agrees with all other related passages covering that Subject)... I just am missing that point in your own "explanation"... so that it falls far short of my own view of what Paul (etc) have stated on it.
Can you elaborate on this point?
I'm asking you... WHAT is it that will make the "pre-tribbers" AWARE (not to mention, everyone else be made aware) that "the great tribulation has come/arrived" and that they are IN it and experiencing it?
WHAT MARKS its ARRIVAL, according to your viewpoint as you are explaining it? (I'm missing that piece of your "picture / explanation".)
I know, clearly, what it is in *my* (pre-trib) scenario (for this is what Paul is conveying, which agrees with all other related passages covering that Subject)... I just am missing that point in your own "explanation"... so that it falls far short of my own view of what Paul (etc) have stated on it.
Can you elaborate on this point?
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Yep... and I then pointed out "G647" (as it says ^ ), and THAT said, "properly, something separative" (pretty much along the lines of what I've already been repeatedly pointing out, whereupon the crowd has been sending out responses consisting of much "booooo---hiss--booooo!")
G646 -
apostasia = apostasis - 'apo stasis' - "a standing away-from [a previous standing]"
= "departure" (WHAT KIND of "departure" depends on CONTEXT)
['the one restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [/come to be], AND THEN..."]
G646 -
apostasia = apostasis - 'apo stasis' - "a standing away-from [a previous standing]"
= "departure" (WHAT KIND of "departure" depends on CONTEXT)
['the one restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [/come to be], AND THEN..."]
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