Since you persist, can you show any Bible translation that render these scriptures about Phoebe with the titles you claim "can mean" what you mean here?
Are WOMEN Pastors Biblical??
- Thread starter Major
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Major said:
I agree that women can teach, pray and worship and do all things, except Pastor a church either alone or as a co-pastor with her husband.
With all due respect, That idea is NOT Biblical but instead it is a denominational teaching to get around the directions given by Paul.
“A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent” (1 Timothy 2:11–12)
Verse 11 says, “Let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.”
The Greek adversative “de” (“but” in English) links verse 12 back to 11. Paul wants women to learn in the entire submissiveness.
Some even say that the Greek words “gyne” (woman) and “andros” (man) mean wife and husband. This would render the verse as, “But I do not allow a wife to teach or exercise authority over a husband, but to remain quiet.” (1 Tim. 2:12). Supporters of this argument then conclude that this would not prevent a woman from being a pastor since this is not speaking of women in general but only wives in relation to their husbands. Is this argument sound? No, it isn’t.
WHY????
If a wife were a pastor and her husband were in the congregation, then when she taught, she’d be teaching her husband. This can’t work–unless the husband has to leave the church each time his wife teaches. Ridiculous? You bet!
In all of the 17 English translations of the Bible I have (Darby, ASV, ESV, HCSB, ISV, KJV, NASB95, NASB, NCV, NIV, NKJV, NLT, NRSV, WUESTNT, RSV, GNB, WorrelNT, YLT), none translate the verse as wife and husband, so why do people assert that it is about a husband and wife?
@Major,
first thanks for the reply, second, I must disagree with your assessment, but agree with the scriptures, and here's why.
A. the term woman there is a wife
G1135 γυνή gune (ǰ ï-nee') n.
1. a woman.
2. (specially) a wife.
[probably from the base of G1096]
KJV: wife, woman
Root(s): G1096
Compare: G1133, G435
See also: G1134, H802
note, definition #2. so the question, how do we know that it is a WIFE?, answer, 1 Timothy 2:15 "Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."
only a married woman, (a wife), suppose to be having children... so we know that it a wife.
now addressing being, "quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness". that is if she's ignorant of the word of God, then as a husband, his duite, (as head, first to lead), should instruct his wife. that's only if he know himself. now to address the, "If a wife were a pastor and her husband were in the congregation, then when she taught, she’d be teaching her husband. This can’t work–unless the husband has to leave the church each time his wife teaches. Ridiculous? You bet!".
this is based on ignorance of the scriptures, because not all husbands are christians, or even in the church. and if a man marries a woman who is a christian and in the church, well how is he going to teach her anything about God? ... well, see it now?. this only applies to a husband that is in the church and his wife is not. now lets put this ignorance to rest. was not Timothy mother a christian, and nationality Jewish, and his Father, Greek. now what if his Father was not a Christian? well how can his mother be taught by her husband? see the mistake, and error.
this is why the 1 Corinthians chapter 7 letter was written to address just these types of situations and conditions in the Church.
which bring me to 1 Corinthians 14:35 in my next post, to address this nonesense of women and wives in the church to be silence.
PICJAG,
101G
I agree that women can teach, pray and worship and do all things, except Pastor a church either alone or as a co-pastor with her husband.
With all due respect, That idea is NOT Biblical but instead it is a denominational teaching to get around the directions given by Paul.
“A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent” (1 Timothy 2:11–12)
Verse 11 says, “Let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.”
The Greek adversative “de” (“but” in English) links verse 12 back to 11. Paul wants women to learn in the entire submissiveness.
Some even say that the Greek words “gyne” (woman) and “andros” (man) mean wife and husband. This would render the verse as, “But I do not allow a wife to teach or exercise authority over a husband, but to remain quiet.” (1 Tim. 2:12). Supporters of this argument then conclude that this would not prevent a woman from being a pastor since this is not speaking of women in general but only wives in relation to their husbands. Is this argument sound? No, it isn’t.
WHY????
If a wife were a pastor and her husband were in the congregation, then when she taught, she’d be teaching her husband. This can’t work–unless the husband has to leave the church each time his wife teaches. Ridiculous? You bet!
In all of the 17 English translations of the Bible I have (Darby, ASV, ESV, HCSB, ISV, KJV, NASB95, NASB, NCV, NIV, NKJV, NLT, NRSV, WUESTNT, RSV, GNB, WorrelNT, YLT), none translate the verse as wife and husband, so why do people assert that it is about a husband and wife?
@Major,
first thanks for the reply, second, I must disagree with your assessment, but agree with the scriptures, and here's why.
A. the term woman there is a wife
G1135 γυνή gune (ǰ ï-nee') n.
1. a woman.
2. (specially) a wife.
[probably from the base of G1096]
KJV: wife, woman
Root(s): G1096
Compare: G1133, G435
See also: G1134, H802
note, definition #2. so the question, how do we know that it is a WIFE?, answer, 1 Timothy 2:15 "Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."
only a married woman, (a wife), suppose to be having children... so we know that it a wife.
now addressing being, "quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness". that is if she's ignorant of the word of God, then as a husband, his duite, (as head, first to lead), should instruct his wife. that's only if he know himself. now to address the, "If a wife were a pastor and her husband were in the congregation, then when she taught, she’d be teaching her husband. This can’t work–unless the husband has to leave the church each time his wife teaches. Ridiculous? You bet!".
this is based on ignorance of the scriptures, because not all husbands are christians, or even in the church. and if a man marries a woman who is a christian and in the church, well how is he going to teach her anything about God? ... well, see it now?. this only applies to a husband that is in the church and his wife is not. now lets put this ignorance to rest. was not Timothy mother a christian, and nationality Jewish, and his Father, Greek. now what if his Father was not a Christian? well how can his mother be taught by her husband? see the mistake, and error.
this is why the 1 Corinthians chapter 7 letter was written to address just these types of situations and conditions in the Church.
which bring me to 1 Corinthians 14:35 in my next post, to address this nonesense of women and wives in the church to be silence.
PICJAG,
101G
first thanks for the reply, second, have I not already? have you look up the word "succourer" to see what it means in Romans 16:2 "That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also."
or did you not understand what was presented in Romans 16:3 "Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:" as the wife Priscilla with her husband Aquila, being the apostle "HELPERS? or have you really examine what the prophet Anna was doing in the TEMPLE of God in Luke chapter 2? or the women in Philippians 4:3 "And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life."
well all the evidence, as said is right in front of our faces, the BIBLE. the bible states, 2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." it did not say just READ IT, but "STUDY IT". look up words, cross reference scriptures, line upon line, here a little there a little.
PICJAG,
101G
3rd Unanswered Attempt?
Do you believe "practicing homosexuals" should be allowed membership in any denominational Church, and allowed roles in leadership positions?
The word, diakon (and varieties thereof) is rendered "minister" (and varieties thereof) in the KJV of ...
Matthew 20:26, 20:28 (twice), 25:44, 27:55;
Mark 1:13, 1:31, 10:43;
Romans 13:4;
and many others.
Come on now.
You're one of the main ones today, prolonging the agony of this wretched thread.
It puzzles me why a man would obsess so much about keeping women in restrictive roles despite the fact that
we have all been set free by the son of the living God and we have a lot to celebrate.
It's Easter weekend! Isn't there something better on your mind?
Now, lets address the 1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law."
this verse has been misused, and abused in so many ways, but with the GRACE of God, and by his Wisdom, lets shine light on this passage of scripture, for the edifying of the saints.
Fact #1. in 1 Corinthians 14:34, the term "Woman" here is the same for wife in 1 Timothy 2:11 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection." it is the Greek word, G1135 γυνή gune (ǰ ï-nee') n.
1. a woman.
2. (specially) a wife.
[probably from the base of G1096]
KJV: wife, woman
Root(s): G1096
definition #2. is correct, and how do we know this? let the bible tell us, the very next verse, 1 Corinthians 14:35 "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." BINGO, there is our answer, the only kind of WOMAN who has a husband is a Married ONE. so the term WOMEN here is a WIFE.
Fact #2. in 1 Corinthians 14:34, the apostle Paul was not even speaking to "WOMEN, here WIVES", at all. but to their HUSBANDS. how do we know this. listen to the Language, 1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women (Wives) keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law." YOUR ... Wife? see it now, if I said, "Let not your children run around in church". who am I speaking to? you or your children? ..... you of course. I'm speaking to you, about your children. so the apostle was speaking to the HUSBAND of the wives in the churches. which directly relate to 1 Timothy 2:11 & 12. the Husband need to instruct his "OWN" wife in the things of God before you, the husband and wife come to church, so when she, (your wife), gets up and speak in church on the word of God, neither you nor your wife are embarrassed by what your (wife) say in church.
Ignorance of the scriptures is the worst enemy of church goers.
Fact #3. and to render any other arguments useless, when applying to who should be silence in the churches. if the apostle would have use the term G2338 θήλυς thelus (thee'-lïs) adj.
female.
[from thele (the nipple)]
KJV: female, woman
then that would have applied to every FEMALE, (including the wives, and single women), BUT HE by the HOLY GHOST, din't use that word, so every woman of God can speak in Church, just beside singing.... yes, TEACHING, as well as Pastoring, ect......
so I hope this shed some light of truth on these passages of scriptures.
PICJAG,
101G.
this verse has been misused, and abused in so many ways, but with the GRACE of God, and by his Wisdom, lets shine light on this passage of scripture, for the edifying of the saints.
Fact #1. in 1 Corinthians 14:34, the term "Woman" here is the same for wife in 1 Timothy 2:11 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection." it is the Greek word, G1135 γυνή gune (ǰ ï-nee') n.
1. a woman.
2. (specially) a wife.
[probably from the base of G1096]
KJV: wife, woman
Root(s): G1096
definition #2. is correct, and how do we know this? let the bible tell us, the very next verse, 1 Corinthians 14:35 "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." BINGO, there is our answer, the only kind of WOMAN who has a husband is a Married ONE. so the term WOMEN here is a WIFE.
Fact #2. in 1 Corinthians 14:34, the apostle Paul was not even speaking to "WOMEN, here WIVES", at all. but to their HUSBANDS. how do we know this. listen to the Language, 1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women (Wives) keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law." YOUR ... Wife? see it now, if I said, "Let not your children run around in church". who am I speaking to? you or your children? ..... you of course. I'm speaking to you, about your children. so the apostle was speaking to the HUSBAND of the wives in the churches. which directly relate to 1 Timothy 2:11 & 12. the Husband need to instruct his "OWN" wife in the things of God before you, the husband and wife come to church, so when she, (your wife), gets up and speak in church on the word of God, neither you nor your wife are embarrassed by what your (wife) say in church.
Ignorance of the scriptures is the worst enemy of church goers.
Fact #3. and to render any other arguments useless, when applying to who should be silence in the churches. if the apostle would have use the term G2338 θήλυς thelus (thee'-lïs) adj.
female.
[from thele (the nipple)]
KJV: female, woman
then that would have applied to every FEMALE, (including the wives, and single women), BUT HE by the HOLY GHOST, din't use that word, so every woman of God can speak in Church, just beside singing.... yes, TEACHING, as well as Pastoring, ect......
so I hope this shed some light of truth on these passages of scriptures.
PICJAG,
101G.
You seem not to be a woman of your word. In post #1063 you replied me thus:
And yet you continue to address me, even about a post which was not directed to you.
It's called Passover, by the way. And I enjoy it!
You will now be added to my growing ignore list.
But you said Phoebe was a "bishop", didn't you? If so, got any translation rendering it that way? I am well with that Phoebe was a deaconess. Other than that I have not heard.
Paul Was Called To Be An Apostle, Not A Bishop/Pastor
Paul wrote 1 Timothy 3:1-5 and the qualifications for a Bishop/Pastor seen below
1 Corinthians 1:1KJV
Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
Once Again:
Qualifications For A Bishop Is To Be A Married "Man" That Rules His House Well, Read It Before Your Eyes, In Bold Red
1 Timothy 3:1-5KJV
1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
Women are to remain silent in the church, let alone be at a pulpit being a Bishop/Pastor
1 Corinthians 14:34KJV
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
You are an arrogant one.
I said I wouldn't debate you on the women's leadership topic.
In this case I was calling you out on your appalling attitude to another poster.
Behave yourself.
What do you say about this idea that Phoebe was a bishop? To me it's doodle. Never heard of such before.
first, thanks for the reply, second, have you forgotten already, and not read? the translation I'm using is the KJV, Romans 16:1 "I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:"
as said, Commend is "APPROVE" , the apostle approved her for the position of G4291 προΐστημι proistemi officer of the newly formed church at Rome.
PICJAG,
101G.
But is that an answer to if any translation render any verse regarding Phoebe as being bishop? That Paul commended Phoebe as a deaconess I rest well with.
first, thanks for the reply, second, ERROR, Paul was call to be a MINISTER, read Acts 26:16 "But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;" now, after God, the Lord Jesus taught him, then he was SENT as an apostle. see apostles are taught and then sent. now our sister Phebe was taught and then she was sent to Rome to feed the flock of God there.
PICJAG,
101G.
first thanks for the reply, you can rest there, that's your choce, but we will press toward the prize, the High calling in Christ Jesus.
PICJAG,
101G.
So, no Bible translation that renders any verse dealing with Phoebe as being a bishop?
Btw, who taught you that Phoebe was a bishop?