****Justified DIVORCE****

[Live4Him]

And he ( Moses) remarried Num 12:1

Although Moses may have (many Bible scholars believe that this reference was to Zipporah) remarried in Numbers 12:1, even then, scripture is silent about what happened to his first wife, Zipporah.

In other words, she could have easily died by this point in time, so your claims of him divorcing her have no substantiation in scripture.

 

[Platosgal]

Or
He got rid of her because
Ex 4:25

She was not easy to get along with
And when he remarried
(If he was a widower)
Why did Arron and Miriam get their robes in a bunch??
Because Moses wasnt a widower
And his EX wife was with her father bcz she was not on board with Moses"s
New life - I have had long discussions about this issue with both Rabbi's and Greek Orthodox scholars
My take on this is not original - it there
In the book

 

[Platosgal]

Or
He got rid of her because
Ex 4:25

She was not easy to get along with
And when he remarried
(If he was a widower)
Why did Arron and Miriam get their robes in a bunch??
Because Moses wasnt a widower
And his EX wife was with her father bcz she was not on board with Moses"s
New life - I have had long discussions about this issue with both Rabbi's and Greek Orthodox scholars
My take on this is not original - its there
In the book

Either way for me personally its academic

 

[Dino246]

And he ( Moses) remarried Num 12:1

Okay, I can see why you believe that, but I disagree with you.

 

[Platosgal]

Okay, I can see why you believe that, but I disagree with you.

Many do-

 

[Live4Him]

Or
He got rid of her because
Ex 4:25

She was not easy to get along with
And when he remarried
(If he was a widower)
Why did Arron and Miriam get their robes in a bunch??
Because Moses wasnt a widower
And his EX wife was with her father bcz she was not on board with Moses"s
New life - I have had long discussions about this issue with both Rabbi's and Greek Orthodox scholars
My take on this is not original - it there
In the book

It's not there in the book, as I've already demonstrated, but you're free to believe whatever you want to believe.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Many do-

Here is a commentary that gives a reasonable answer to this issue.
https://enduringword.com/bible-commentary/numbers-12/

It shows that using Numbers 12:1 in the context of divorce and remarriage is pretty unreliable.

 

[Platosgal]

Ok...but that is what it says..but alrighty

 

[kaylagrl]

Made up? I have looked into these matters a bit many years ago. I don't remember the stats, but there is some high percentage, maybe 40ish, of domestic violence situations having an abusive female. It could be higher since men may be much less likely to call the police on their wives than vice versa or to report such things. I did not make the scenarios up, but I haven't memorized all the sources either. Here is an article I found with a quick search about 40%+ of DV cases involving an abusive woman. I've also read that men are very likely to be the ones pulled away from DV situations in handcuffs.

Here are a couple of 'popular press' type news articles on the topic: https://www.webmd.com/balance/features/help-for-battered-men?page=3
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence

Many of the charities that deal with domestic violence use the Duluth Model. There is a problem with its validity. My understanding is that it was extrapolated from a case study of one abusive individual. That does not apply to every domestic violence situation. It is also rooted in feminist philosophy. Here is an article that explores some of the problems with that from a conservative Christian perspective: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/justa...horse-of-feminist-theology-within-the-church/

We probably all had ancestors in whose family the fathers/husbands held all the purse strings, managed the family funds, and that was not the woman's domain. In the Bible, inheritance of land was given through the male line, with few exceptions if the sons died. Presumably women enjoyed it through their relationship with their husbands and fathers. That's not immoral. If the law is holy, just, and good, it is good whether it is feminist or not. I have a joint bank account with my wife, and she can go down to the bank and withdraw money, and she handled the banking when we lived in her country. But if a husband runs his household such that he handles the funds, Biblically, I cannot find a reason to think that is inherently 'abusive.' I've seen variants of the power and control wheel model that listed quoting Bible verses about wives submitting to husbands as 'abusive' behavior.



I want people to be safe, but I do not see violence in marriage as a Biblical justification for remarriage. Violence doesn't justify adultery.

I didn't say it justified remarriage. But if a woman is abused in a marriage, there is no reason she should not seek a divorce for her safety and her childrens.

So are you one of those couples who never argued?

We were talking about abuse and arguments that could be construed as abuse. I said we had never said anything to each other that could be misinterpreted as abuse. I grew up with parents that never stopped arguing and his parents divorced when he was young. We are very careful not to argue, we both hate it.

I met this Malaysian Chinese couple once. He was a pastor. Before marriage she'd been a missionary to the Inban or some tribe like that that was known for headhunting. He was in his 90's. She was in her 80's. She said they never once argued in their marriage. My wife and I asked him if that were the case. He did not answer. She said he had difficulty hearing. They might never have argued. They were a sweet couple. I know one other man who said he and his wife and never argued. It seems a rare thing.

It is indeed a rare thing. I was in a store with my husband once and we were joking as we were checking out. The cashier asked if we were brother and sister, at our odd expression she said that most couples who came through the line were either angry or arguing with each other. I'm not going to say we never disagree, but we don't argue, certainly never shout or swear at one another.

My wife and I have never cussed at each other. We have not called each other 'stupid', but I think we have both said things we wish we would not have said.

Both my hubby and I grew up with drama and unstableness in our families. I think we just both love peace more than we want to be right.

I do not sit in on people's marriage counseling sessions, so I cannot say. But based on discussions on forums, that does not seem to be very common advice among evangelicals on such forums.

I can see coming and talking out an issue in forums, but I wouldn't stake my marriage on it. Seems a rather odd thing to do. Taking advice of strangers on something so important.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Many do-

Statistically 30% of all church members have at some time been victims of domestic violence. It is termed as the Silent Epidemic in our Western churches.

A relevant article can be found at:
http://www.kyria.com/topics/hottopics/womensissues/11.68.html

You can find a good number of domestic violence articles on my website;
http://www.personal-communication.org.nz

 

[TheIndianGirl]

Was wife beating acceptable in India in 'the old days.'

An Indian family of working class, including the extended family, generally includes one person of each character - the wife beater, the drunk, the gambler, the husband who abandons the family, the man who has another family on the side, the daughter in law who mistreats the in-law (and vice versa), the child who no longer talks to the family, etc. I also spoke with an Ethiopian who admitted this of his own culture. However, as the family gets more educated, these types of characters decrease. Nowadays these types of behavior are not accepted.

 

[presidente]

A wife comes to you for counselling and says that she is a victim of domestic abuse and feels that her life is in danger. How are you going to advise her. If you advise her to be "more loving or submissive" and she goes back and tries to do it, and then gets stabbed to death with a kitchen knife by her abusive husband, how would you feel about that?

In my view, her blood will be on your hands at the judgment because of inappropriate advice.

I was a Ministry of Justice victim advisor for 10 years, concentrating on domestic violence victims. At least two of my clients were murdered by their abusive husbands because the wife tried to stay in the marriage and make a go of it. We did all we could to keep her safe, including the judge issuing a protection order against the husband.

So, in my professional opinion, churches that advise to keep women in unsafe, abusive marriages are being totally irresponsible and may have to answer to God for their false advice.

I would advise any domestic violence victim in a church that has a blanket prohibition on divorce and remarriage based on the faulty interpretation of the references, should get out of that church and flee for their lives, and find another church that can give them better advice and which will abide by the law concerning the reporting to domestic violence crime.

I have not told a wife who said she felt her life was in danger to stay in that situation. There are a lot of other situations that are not that extreme, situations where one party might call it 'verbal abuse' and another would not.

But be that as it may, one person being violent or verbally abusive does not give the other the right to commit adultery. One can separate for safety reasons without remarrying.

If you tell someone it is okay to commit adultery (by divorcing and remarrying wrongly) you may have to answer to God for that also.

 

[presidente]

And he ( Moses) remarried Num 12:1

There is no evidence that Moses divorced.

He might have taken a second wife, or he might have been widowed. We do not know the situation beyond what is stated. There are even thoughts who would argue that his Midianite and Kenite wife was a Kushite. Maybe he had a Midianite wife, a Kenite wife, and a Kushite wife.

 

[presidente]

Or
He got rid of her because
Ex 4:25

She was not easy to get along with
And when he remarried
(If he was a widower)
Why did Arron and Miriam get their robes in a bunch??
Because Moses wasnt a widower
And his EX wife was with her father bcz she was not on board with Moses"s
New life - I have had long discussions about this issue with both Rabbi's and Greek Orthodox scholars
My take on this is not original - it there
In the book

The argument for it seems extremely weak. Here is a web page that addresses that and other interpretations and traditions about Moses' marriage:

https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/zipporah-midrash-and-aggadah

 

[Gideon300]

I am hoping to find an answer to the question that bothers me since I divorced my husband after 22 years. I walked out and left him after he broke me down so bad mentally and physically I was afraid of his rages since he had beat me in the past . The last blow was him getting angry at me when we went on vacation and did not have a plan as to what we would do. The next year he cut me off finachially from accounts, I made as much as him. My family disowned me over being jealous (narcissist) . I had no where to turn was afraid to tell anyone what was going on behind closed doors for fears the next outrage with him would be way worse. I found a way to hide money from withholding in my check to another account without him knowing. A year later I packed up and moved out with all I could take while he was at work. He told me I would have to be the one to file the divorce, I agreed really did not have the Christian background on what the bible said. He was engaged and married within 3 yrs after we divorced. He said by me divorcing him, it gave him no other choice but to remarry . I left him. My question is - is he right about him being able to remarry since I filed and left him.

As a divorced man, I hope I can help. The first thing to be assured of is that divorce is not the unpardonable sin. God hates divorce, but He does not expect or demand people to continue in abusive relationships.

Many Christians emphasise the "wives submit to your husband" truth. Rarely have I heard a sermon on "husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church". I also believe that the definition of Christian is way to broad. We prove that we have passed from death to life when we love the brethren, and that includes our spouse.

I was extremely hard line on divorce as a new Christian. Watching other Christians struggle and my personal failure has made me a little more understanding.

One thing that we must be sure of is to be free of any unforgiveness, bitterness or resentment. That can be beyond human ability at times. However, we will suffer terribly if we do not forgive. So how? I suggest that you look at the following article. It is by far the most helpful thing I've ever read on the subject. It's quite long, but worth it.

https://www.christianlife.org.au/can-you-forgive-from-your-heart

 

[PaulChristensen]

I have not told a wife who said she felt her life was in danger to stay in that situation. There are a lot of other situations that are not that extreme, situations where one party might call it 'verbal abuse' and another would not.

But be that as it may, one person being violent or verbally abusive does not give the other the right to commit adultery. One can separate for safety reasons without remarrying.

If you tell someone it is okay to commit adultery (by divorcing and remarrying wrongly) you may have to answer to God for that also.

In my experience working with DV victims is that one cannot know initially whether an incident remains minor or develops into homicide of the victim, or the victim's suicide. We were trained to treat every incidences of DV as potentially life-threatening.

It can start with verbal comments and psychological pressure, and without intervention, will never go away. And the percentage of DV in church families is just a couple of percent short of what is happening in society.

In the 1980s I had a friend who was stabbed to death in front of her children when she tried to break up with her professing Christian partner. His attitude was, "If I can't have her, nobody can." The church leadership knew about her fears of the man, but did nothing to protect her.

I'm not advocating a spouse walking out of a marriage and then getting married again. Whether future remarriage is appropriate for the innocent victim God's business and hers, and I don't support religious busybodies Bible bashing them with verses out of context.

In fact, many victims who do remarry, end up with another DV relationship, and we at the Ministry of Justice Victims Advisers office saw quite a few of these "serial" victims. Therefore we counsel victims taking their time before rushing into another relationship, and I am sure that a responsible pastor would do the same.

I don't believe that God punishes the innocent along with the guilty, no matter what Bible quoting religionists say. Good Bible scholars take the whole Bible into account when considering these issues, not just a couple of individual verses out of context.

 

[Gideon300]

It was a question, as indicated by the questionmarks. Not a claim.

I fully agree, widows, widowers are free to remarry, I never stated otherwise.

A christian can't remarry while their spouse lives, they must remain separated/divorced or reconcile

Not so. God does not punish anyone for the sins of others. Being forced to be single is unjust. I've been single for 25 years now. I believe that I was justified in getting divorced. Being single is my choice - for now.

 

[PaulChristensen]

As a divorced man, I hope I can help. The first thing to be assured of is that divorce is not the unpardonable sin. God hates divorce, but He does not expect or demand people to continue in abusive relationships.

Many Christians emphasise the "wives submit to your husband" truth. Rarely have I heard a sermon on "husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church". I also believe that the definition of Christian is way to broad. We prove that we have passed from death to life when we love the brethren, and that includes our spouse.

I was extremely hard line on divorce as a new Christian. Watching other Christians struggle and my personal failure has made me a little more understanding.

One thing that we must be sure of is to be free of any unforgiveness, bitterness or resentment. That can be beyond human ability at times. However, we will suffer terribly if we do not forgive. So how? I suggest that you look at the following article. It is by far the most helpful thing I've ever read on the subject. It's quite long, but worth it.

https://www.christianlife.org.au/can-you-forgive-from-your-heart

Of course, if the abusive spouse remarries, then the issue for the innocent spouse becomes a non-issue as far as remarriage is concerned.

 

[presidente]

Of course, if the abusive spouse remarries, then the issue for the innocent spouse becomes a non-issue as far as remarriage is concerned.

Why do you say this? What scripture do you base this on?

 

[presidente]

Many Christians emphasise the "wives submit to your husband" truth. Rarely have I heard a sermon on "husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church".

Really? Rarely, if ever at all, have I heard a sermon that told wives to submit to their husbands where it was not also taught that husbands were to love their wives as Christ loved the church.

I was in a church that had a seeker-sensitive feel to it once where a visiting pastor preached on Ephesians 5. He very quickly read the part about wives submitting to their husbands and said we had all heard a lot about that, then spent time telling husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church... and spent much of the rest of the sermon talking about the need for communication.

I remember thinking a lot of the people here probably have not heard sermons on the need for wives to submit to their husbands. Many of them probably did not go to church in the 1950's or '60's, or even '70's. Seeker sensitive churches can be light on those type of topics. You may not hear abortion addressed, or various other hot topic issues that contradict society. And a lot of churches have gone the seeker sensitive route.

But I suppose we all have different experiences.