Not By Works

[tribesman]

can i crawl back and forth out of mother's womb over and over?

can the leopard change his spots.

Sort of ... the point, yes.

 

[Phoneman-777]

The example is irrelevant. God has promised eternal life to as many as receive Jesus and believe on him. Reading in the Word of God there are promises God will keep his own. God doesn’t lie. I haven’t always believed in eternal security. I came to that conclusion through reading the Bible.

I think the answer is obvious: you would not tolerate such behavior...what you have is eternal security in a false doctrine. Jesus' blood does not cover deliberate, known sin aka "iniquity", according to 1 John 2:3-4 KJV, so why does OSAS insist it does?

 

[CherieR]

I think the answer is obvious: you would not tolerate such behavior...what you have is eternal security in a false doctrine. Jesus' blood does not cover deliberate, known sin aka "iniquity", according to 1 John 2:3-4 KJV, so why does OSAS insist it does?

I disagree.
The book of 1 John is written to believers whose sins are forgiven.
In my opinion, much of sin is deliberate and known. I believe Jesus blood does cover such sin.

 

[Phoneman-777]

You may read Eph.2 (about sinners being dead in their sins) and Rom.9 (where it speaks about God's choices outside man).

Yes, which means "no eternal life in them" not "dead to God's voice calling them to repentance".

Neither satan nor sinners do have any power of their own. All power and authority is from God.

Yes, God gives us power over our lives and free will to exercise that power for good or for evil.

I don't really see the meaning behind comparing satan with men, it isn't really the same thing.

That's alright. I'm sure others who might be reading that part understand full well and agree with my premise that Calvinism makes humans more depraved than Satan because somehow sinners can't even hope to look in God's direction while Satan can gain His audience, debate Him, accuse Him, etc. Sometimes we have to read something two or three times to grasp it.

Where do you find exclusivist claims of calvinism? Any source?

The best source is the "L" in TULIP: "Limited Atonement" which is no different than the claims of other forms of "Exclusivity Religion" like Luciferian occultism, Catholicism, Judaism, Black Hebrew Israelites, British Hebrew Israelites, etc. Are you sure you're a Calvinist?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I disagree.
The book of 1 John is written to believers whose sins are forgiven.
In my opinion, much of sin is deliberate and known. I believe Jesus blood does cover such sin.

Amen
John said whoever sins has never seen or known God (speaking of habitual willing sin)

No matter how many times you show this. They seem to ignore this fact it is God who empowers us. They lack faith in God Not only to save them. To keep them but to Change them

 

[posthuman]

Proven accusations, unlike those which were against Paul.

not at all proven, but empty accusations.

you have been going around accusing us of excusing sin and accusing us of teaching people to go out and indulge all their lusts without consequence.
us. real people. yet none of us are saying those things, just like Paul wasn't saying those things. and you have been telling us what we think, without listening to us when we actually tell you what we think, and you haven't been right about it.

There many reasons why OSAS is not Biblical

there are many reasons why what you're calling 'OSAS' is not representative of actual doctrine of the church. salvation is a supernatural work of God that produces real change and real fruit in a person. but you are framing this conversation as though it's describing people who do nothing more than mentally acquiesce to a set of magic words after a carefully crafted oration designed to evoke an emotional response from vulnerable people. that's not salvation. so of course you shouldn't expect those people to have anything more than self-imposed outward behavioral modification that falls apart when the wind blows or their willpower runs out.

you're talking about a strawman, not about actual reformed theology, and you're going around accusing all of us who trust God of practicing and teaching licentiousness. you are a puffed up mess, IMO.

 

[posthuman]

@Phoneman-777 you confessed that you cannot do anything of your own self.

what are the implications of that, with regard to soteriology?

 

[CherieR]

Sadly some want to seal themselves

That is a position of trying to hold onto control and “ be the master of your sails”.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That is a position of trying to hold onto control and “ be the master of your sails”.

That’s why you also have to make your own God.

 

[OIC1965]

Not explicitly, but certainly implicitly, as I've shown over and over.

I am more speaking about preachers and pastors and writers and teachers that teach security of the believer. Most teach the necessity of holiness for believers. You can't put everyone who teaches Security of the Believer into the same basket.

 

[OIC1965]

Never said it did.

It was always faith that saves, you obey what God commanded you to do at any time period, he sees that as faith.

For example, Abel offered the sacrifice God commanded, Cain refused to offer that (genesis 4:7). As a result, one had faith, the other did not.

In the ot time period, God commanded Israel to follow the law. The only way you can show faith is to do what he commands.

So we agree that justification has always been by faith and not by works. No one can be righteous enough to be just before God on their own merits. Not even close. Our best works themselves are tainted by a degree of sinfulness.

 

[OIC1965]

If you insist, I am fine, we can agree to disagree there.

I am good with agreeing to disagree.

 

[posthuman]

the Unmerciful Servant who was totally forgiven, but his latter end wound up worse than the beginning...

this guy was never saved. he owed 200,000 years salary, equivalently billions of dollars. and he said 'give me time i'll pay it' -- that man was a liar. he wasn't going to pay. it was impossible for him to pay. he's got very different plans.
but the Master gave him mercy. who is the Master in this parable? it's God. does God know that this man who cannot possibly pay his debt has no intention of actually paying his debt, and that he's lying to him? yup. does God do this to people now? yup. look at all the people who think they can be saved through works. people who think that works keeps them saved and commends them to God. does God show mercy to these people who lie to Him and give empty promises to amass enough filthy rags to impress God with? yup. God gives them grace. God gave Judas amazing grace, all the while knowing Judas never believed, that Judas was a thief and a murderer.

if you think this lying thief who intends to murder his Master is representative of the believer, you do not understand the parable.
((IMO))

 

[VCO]

If OSAS is not a license to commit sin, then why do you guys teach that the Christian can't lose his salvation no matter how much he sins?

OSAS is a means to obtain by dead faith that which can only be obtained by living faith: eternal life. It cannot be.

(I use Capitolization and Colors and Underlining for only EMPHASIS, the way I was taught to in Typing Class in 1967. I refuse to go by Face Book Rules, and have never had a Face Book account in my life.)



BECAUSE HE SAID SO!

John 10:27-28 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever!
No one will snatch them out of My hand.

Ephesians 1:11-14 (HCSB)
11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will, {which includes our decision to RECEIVE Christ as LORD, meaning Master of our lives.}

1 Corinthians 12:3 (NJB)
3 Because of that, I want to make it quite clear to you that no one who says ‘A curse on Jesus' can be speaking in the Spirit of God,
and nobody is able to say, ‘Jesus is Lord' except in the Holy Spirit.


Our Salvation happened before the BEGINNING OF TIME.

BECAUSE HE SAID SO!

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

1 Peter 1:3-5 (HCSB)
3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.
5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 11:6 (HCSB)
6 Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.

Romans 8:28-30 (HCSB)
28 We know that all things work together for the good of those who love God: those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified.



Romans 8:1-4 (HCSB)
1 Therefore, no condemnation now exists for those in Christ Jesus,
2 because the Spirit’s law of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3 What the law could not do since it was limited by the flesh, God did. He condemned sin in the flesh by sending His own Son in flesh like ours under sin’s domain, and as a sin offering,
4 in order that the law’s requirement would be accomplished in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

JESUS DID IT ALL TO SAVE US BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF TIME.

Now before you get your Hackles Up, pay very CLOSE ATTENTION TO WHAT I WILL SHARE WITH YOU NEXT.

OBEDIENCE has never been part of SALVATION, it has ALWAYS BEEN Part of AGAPE LOVE.

Because we are SAVED, the HOLY SPIRIT changes our Human Spirit into an Eternally Alive Spirit. When we are truly born again, you will discover you have one mind in your heart, and another between you ears. The mind between your ears is in tune with the Will of the Flesh, and the Mind between in your heart or human spirit is in tune with the will of GOD. Our mind in our Heart has wants, desires, feelings too, but all are within GOD's WILL.

We will sincerely want to do what Pleases HIM, purely as an act of AGAPE LOVE, and that is not part of US, it is Part of the AGAPE LOVE HE had the Holy Spirit pour into our hearts. Here is the Verse I am Talking about.

Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
5 This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

What happens when we SIN ? WE WILL EAGERLY WANT TO CONFESS THAT SIN ACCORDING TO: 1 John 1:9, get back up and begin again to walk the way Jesus walked. NEVER does obedience make up for a single SIN.

Let me put it this way. HOW MANY OF THE SINS you would commit in your lifetime, WERE IN THE FUTURE WHEN CHRIST WENT TO THE CROSS ? ? ? CHRIST PAID YOU BILL IN FULL ON THAT CROSS. No human DEEDS can repay what you OWE.

Galatians 3:13 (GW)
13 Christ paid the price to free us from the curse that God's laws bring by becoming cursed instead of us. Scripture says, “Everyone who is hung on a tree is cursed.”

I repeat, when we Serve HIM out of AGAPE LOVE, it only proves we were SAVED BEFORE TIME BEGAN.
And HIS DEEDS were as good a finished the moment HE PLANNED IT.

By the same token, those that habitually sin, never have been Born Again or SAVED; and their imaginary born again experience is just in there heads, or they are self decived and they have fallen for something less than genuine Salvation. Do not get me wrong, we want them in our Churches as long as they do not try to teach false doctrines. WHY? Faith comes by receiving and believing the Gospel Messesage.


In conclusion, OSAS is a theology of HOW WE ARE TO AGAPE LOVE GOD and the BRETREN, after HE SAVED US, not something you do to get Saved or maintain Salvation.

1 John 5:3 (HCSB)
3 For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden,


ONLY, when you serve HIM, out of sincere AGAPE LOVE, is it not a BURDEN.

That is what OSAS CHURCHES TEACH.

 

[Guojing]

So we agree that justification has always been by faith and not by works. No one can be righteous enough to be just before God on their own merits. Not even close. Our best works themselves are tainted by a degree of sinfulness.

That is why Israel don’t have present salvation even though they obeyed God in following the law.

For us born after the fall of Israel, we are justified thru the faith of Christ now. For Israel, that justification by Christ faith will only come later

 

[Phoneman-777]

not at all proven, but empty accusations.

I'll prove it again right here: Can a saint commit habitual, deliberate, known sin from which he never repents and still go to heaven? OSAS answers a resounding "YES!" but Revelation 22:11-15 KJV says such go to hell. Please read it yourself.

you have been going around accusing us of excusing sin and accusing us of teaching people to go out and indulge all their lusts without consequence. us. real people. yet none of us are saying those things

You indeed do that, but implicitly, not explicitly, as shown below --->

just like Paul wasn't saying those things. and you have been telling us what we think, without listening to us when we actually tell you what we think, and you haven't been right about it.

Paul preached the Bible, so his accusers were wrong, as are those who preach false doctrine:

• OSAS teaches salvation spares the lawbreaking saved from the same consequences the unsaved suffer.
• A hunting or fishing license spares license holders from the same consequences the unlicensed suffer.

there are many reasons why what you're calling 'OSAS' is not representative of actual doctrine of the church. salvation is a supernatural work of God that produces real change and real fruit in a person.

OSAS says the only thing salvation causes to change is God's opinion of my iniquity that remains - that bad fruit borne by good trees is deemed by Him "good and acceptable".

you are framing this conversation as though it's describing people who do nothing more than mentally acquiesce to a set of magic words after a carefully crafted oration designed to evoke an emotional response from vulnerable people.

I couldn't have said it better! OSAS people have mentally acquiesced (due to having failed to keep the commandments in their own strength) to a set of magic words (non-contextual or wrongly defined words) after a carefully crafted oration (by the master deceiver himself) designed to evoke an emotional response from vulnerable people (the desperate hope they can obtain by dead faith that which can only be obtained by living faith: eternal life).

you shouldn't expect those people to have anything more than self-imposed outward behavioral modification that falls apart when the wind blows or their willpower runs out.

That's why I'm here to tell you that, contrary to OSAS, we can consistently overcome temptation because it's not a matter of skill, but the will! If we will, Jesus provides the skill.

you're talking about a strawman, not about actual reformed theology, and you're going around accusing all of us who trust God of practicing and teaching licentiousness. you are a puffed up mess, IMO.

I assure this very day I had to literally cry out to Jesus for deliverance from temptation, and He heard my cry, so away with this "puffed up" nonsense because into the gutter, but for the grace of God, I go. And, I'm here to tell weak, powerless, vacillating, indifferent Christian slaves to sin to get on their knees and invite Jesus into the heart, then put on the armor of God and start fighting the good fight of faith, and show forth the fruits meet of repentance - obedience to God's law - not just pathetic, empty words of how we are "more than conquerors" while Satan hands our butts to us every time he shows up with his temptations.

 

[Phoneman-777]

@Phoneman-777 you confessed that you cannot do anything of your own self.

what are the implications of that, with regard to soteriology?

It's conditional: upon condition that we exercise our free will choice to surrender our will to His will and remain in that surrendered relationship while trusting He will accomplish all that He has promised to do.

When people understand that surrender is not "works", but "thought", then they will cease from this false dichotomy between "works" and "grace".

Now, what are your thoughts about 1 John 2:3-4 KJV, which says the man who says he loves God and is OSAS, but "keeps not His commandments is a liar, and the truth (Jesus) is not in him"?

 

[Phoneman-777]

I am more speaking about preachers and pastors and writers and teachers that teach security of the believer. Most teach the necessity of holiness for believers. You can't put everyone who teaches Security of the Believer into the same basket.

How so, when the baskets are different? The one is a secure, sealed container from which the occupants can never leave no matter how confining and restrictive it becomes to them, while the other is just as secure, but uncovered to allow these same uncomfortable ones the freewill choice to return from whence they came.

 

[Phoneman-777]

this guy was never saved. he owed 200,000 years salary, equivalently billions of dollars. and he said 'give me time i'll pay it' -- that man was a liar. he wasn't going to pay. it was impossible for him to pay. he's got very different plans.
but the Master gave him mercy. who is the Master in this parable? it's God. does God know that this man who cannot possibly pay his debt has no intention of actually paying his debt, and that he's lying to him? yup. does God do this to people now? yup. look at all the people who think they can be saved through works. people who think that works keeps them saved and commends them to God. does God show mercy to these people who lie to Him and give empty promises to amass enough filthy rags to impress God with? yup. God gives them grace. God gave Judas amazing grace, all the while knowing Judas never believed, that Judas was a thief and a murderer.

if you think this lying thief who intends to murder his Master is representative of the believer, you do not understand the parable.
((IMO))

What a hermeneutical mess that is. When a man throws himself on the mercy of the court and the judge forgives his crime, does he continue to plead for mercy or does he leave the courthouse fully convinced that he has been forgiven?

That Unmerciful Servant went out from the presence of his master fully forgiven of his impossible debt, yet because some OSAS false prophet told him the grace of his lord is a license to keep on sinning, he didn't allow that grace to transform his character into that of his lord, and wound up worse off in the end than in the beginning, just like when Peter says about those who escaped this polluted world, but wind up entangled therein again.

 

[Phoneman-777]

(I use Capitolization and Colors and Underlining for only EMPHASIS, the way I was taught to in Typing Class in 1967. I refuse to go by Face Book Rules, and have never had a Face Book account in my life.)

View attachment 226454

BECAUSE HE SAID SO!

John 10:27-28 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever!
No one will snatch them out of My hand.

Ephesians 1:11-14 (HCSB)
11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will, {which includes our decision to RECEIVE Christ as LORD, meaning Master of our lives.}

1 Corinthians 12:3 (NJB)
3 Because of that, I want to make it quite clear to you that no one who says ‘A curse on Jesus' can be speaking in the Spirit of God,
and nobody is able to say, ‘Jesus is Lord' except in the Holy Spirit.


Our Salvation happened before the BEGINNING OF TIME.

BECAUSE HE SAID SO!

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

1 Peter 1:3-5 (HCSB)
3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.
5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 11:6 (HCSB)
6 Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.

Romans 8:28-30 (HCSB)
28 We know that all things work together for the good of those who love God: those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified.

View attachment 226450

Romans 8:1-4 (HCSB)
1 Therefore, no condemnation now exists for those in Christ Jesus,
2 because the Spirit’s law of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3 What the law could not do since it was limited by the flesh, God did. He condemned sin in the flesh by sending His own Son in flesh like ours under sin’s domain, and as a sin offering,
4 in order that the law’s requirement would be accomplished in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

JESUS DID IT ALL TO SAVE US BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF TIME.

Now before you get your Hackles Up, pay very CLOSE ATTENTION TO WHAT I WILL SHARE WITH YOU NEXT.

OBEDIENCE has never been part of SALVATION, it has ALWAYS BEEN Part of AGAPE LOVE.

Because we are SAVED, the HOLY SPIRIT changes our Human Spirit into an Eternally Alive Spirit. When we are truly born again, you will discover you have one mind in your heart, and another between you ears. The mind between your ears is in tune with the Will of the Flesh, and the Mind between in your heart or human spirit is in tune with the will of GOD. Our mind in our Heart has wants, desires, feelings too, but all are within GOD's WILL.

We will sincerely want to do what Pleases HIM, purely as an act of AGAPE LOVE, and that is not part of US, it is Part of the AGAPE LOVE HE had the Holy Spirit pour into our hearts. Here is the Verse I am Talking about.

Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
5 This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

What happens when we SIN ? WE WILL EAGERLY WANT TO CONFESS THAT SIN ACCORDING TO: 1 John 1:9, get back up and begin again to walk the way Jesus walked. NEVER does obedience make up for a single SIN.

Let me put it this way. HOW MANY OF THE SINS you would commit in your lifetime, WERE IN THE FUTURE WHEN CHRIST WENT TO THE CROSS ? ? ? CHRIST PAID YOU BILL IN FULL ON THAT CROSS. No human DEEDS can repay what you OWE.

Galatians 3:13 (GW)
13 Christ paid the price to free us from the curse that God's laws bring by becoming cursed instead of us. Scripture says, “Everyone who is hung on a tree is cursed.”

I repeat, when we Serve HIM out of AGAPE LOVE, it only proves we were SAVED BEFORE TIME BEGAN.
And HIS DEEDS were as good a finished the moment HE PLANNED IT.

By the same token, those that habitually sin, never have been Born Again or SAVED; and their imaginary born again experience is just in there heads, or they are self decived and they have fallen for something less than genuine Salvation. Do not get me wrong, we want them in our Churches as long as they do not try to teach false doctrines. WHY? Faith comes by receiving and believing the Gospel Messesage.


In conclusion, OSAS is a theology of HOW WE ARE TO AGAPE LOVE GOD and the BRETREN, after HE SAVED US, not something you do to get Saved or maintain Salvation.

1 John 5:3 (HCSB)
3 For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden,


ONLY, when you serve HIM, out of sincere AGAPE LOVE, is it not a BURDEN.

That is what OSAS CHURCHES TEACH.

Wonderful promises, one and all. But, just like the Pharisees of old who claimed the promises of God while refusing to meet the conditions for them -- surrender -- the modern day OSAS Pharisees, too, claim the promises of God without meeting the same condition.

Jesus tells you to abide in the Vine, and of the consequences for ceasing to do so, but away with the Bible and in its place we will have our false doctrine which says Christ and Satan have joint custody, where we can occasionally be grafted into either the Vine or the Holly tree.

Make no mistake, our surrender must be freely given, permanent, and UNCONDITIONAL.