When Has God Gathered After He Scattered Without Any Repentance?

[eternally-gratefull]

This must not become an "we" versus "you" thing. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. We must not let Satan divide us.

I agree, Sadly it at times does not happen this way.

Thank you for clearing everything up for us. Can we be friends again?

I did not know we were not friends.

 

[Journeyman]

Salvation is by faith, and the Jews will believe, in fact they DO believe the promises made to them, they do not yet believe in the One who has delivered it, but they will.

They will if they hear and believe the gospel of our Lord Jesus. You think so called end time prophecies of Israel turning to God are future, but they speak of Christs earthly ministry and the days of the Apostles onward.

You are completely ignoring Pauls teaching that the promises were made to a man of great faith, Abraham, and to his son, Jesus Christ. You don't see the heartache Paul had for his kinsmen according to the flesh, because they thought they were the chosen people of God, but were dying in their sins.

Don't be blind ... the Jews who were turned back to the wilderness who did not enter the rest, the promised land. Did God forsake them in the wilderness? did He cast them off? did He say you are no longer My people?

He said it to unbelieving Jews in other places, but why bother directing you to them? Concerning the forsaken, it's always because people forsook God first, but it's obvious those who fell in the wilderness were ultimately forsaken by God, because you can't inherit a land you're never going to enter.

It was to the Jewish leaders of Jesu's time, the Roman lackies to whom Jesus said "you will die in your sins" the multitudes heard Him gladly.

Bs. Jesus said that in the temple to Jewish people, probably the priests.

 

[pottersclay]

Now there was one, Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity; and this woman was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not depart from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. And coming in that instant she gave thanks to the Lord, and spoke of Him to all those who looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

“And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

Why are these new testament scriptures over looked? Why are they looked upon as just for the church?

 

[pottersclay]

Now there was one, Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity; and this woman was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not depart from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. And coming in that instant she gave thanks to the Lord, and spoke of Him to all those who looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

“And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

Why are these new testament scriptures over looked? Why are they looked upon as just for the church?

If you believe what jesus said to us christians you would already know that we are redeemed already.
So why would we look for signs of his coming but still believe in the rapture? Which could take place at any moment.

Jesus even said that Israel will be redeemed. God even called Israel his heritage.
Search the scriptures and see if it isn't so. Stop listening to the boob tube preachers who ignore God's promises to Israel.

 

[tribesman]

Yep, the Bible says the haters in church are actually those who won’t warn the brethren when they’re straying off the path.

How true. It is LOVING to rebuke your neighbor and spare him from deadly traps. It is definitely the will of God to do so. But not easy to listen to, let alone receive, reproof and correction when one is caught up in an over-emotional rapture. This is what this issue has become.

 

[tribesman]

Who is straying off the path? Who is telling Jews they are saved as they are?

If anything you should be warned for bearing false witness against your brothers. (then again, Are they your brothers?) I am not even sure of this.. since you teach a different gospel

I know that you (and others) don't tell people that. But some people make statements who amounts to that. What about Hagee's lunacies for example? In the 90s I was into a charismatic church where there was a visiting preacher who once said (about the end times and coming of the Lord): "the jews will not become christians, however they will be saved". These kind of ideas float around in some circles.

 

[Guojing]

I know that you (and others) don't tell people that. But some people make statements who amounts to that. What about Hagee's lunacies for example? In the 90s I was into a charismatic church where there was a visiting preacher who once said (about the end times and coming of the Lord): "the jews will not become christians, however they will be saved". These kind of ideas float around in some circles.

What if the preacher said "During the Tribulation, Israel don't have to believe that Jesus died for their sins and rose again for their justification, like us (1 Cor 15:1-4). They need to believe, instead, that Jesus is their promised Messiah and Son of God (John 20:31,Matthew 23:39) and they will be saved."

Would that have been acceptable to you?

 

[tribesman]

What if the preacher said "During the Tribulation, Israel don't have to believe that Jesus died for their sins and rose again for their justification, like us (1 Cor 15:1-4). They need to believe, instead, that Jesus is their promised Messiah and Son of God (John 20:31,Matthew 23:39) and they will be saved."

Would that have been acceptable to you?

Of course not.

 

[Guojing]

Of course not.

So John 20:31 is incorrect for the nation of Israel?

 

[tribesman]

So John 20:31 is incorrect for the nation of Israel?

What you want to make out of that isolated verse I would see as incorrect. I would not omit "that Jesus died for their sins and rose again for their justification".

That all the Saints of old did not have the exact knowledge and insight about every precise detail regarding the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord does not mean that they did not principally understand it. They did. Paul said:

Acts.26

[22] Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
[23] That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

 

[Guojing]

What you want to make out of that isolated verse I would see as incorrect. I would not omit "that Jesus died for their sins and rose again for their justification".

That all the Saints of old did not have the exact knowledge and insight about every precise detail regarding the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord does not mean that they did not principally understand it. They did. Paul said:

I see, alright then, I can understand why you have some difficulty separating Israel and their program, from the Body of Christ and ours.

 

[pottersclay]

Jesus second coming is to redeem Israel.
This was christ first mission but they rejected jesus as the Messiah. Remember jesus returns with the saints.
Israel will make a forced covenant with anti christ but he will break the covenant .
By doing so Israel will become a victim of circumstance as all the nations seek to destroy Israel
Thats when the lord himself will come to defend.

 

[tribesman]

I see, alright then, I can understand why you have some difficulty separating Israel and their program, from the Body of Christ and ours.

I see no problem involved here other than for those who want to separate Israel and the Church. They make things overly problematic with their error.

 

[Guojing]

I see no problem involved here other than for those who want to separate Israel and the Church. They make things overly problematic with their error.

I think they rather not have to assume, as you did, that "That all the Saints of old did not have the exact knowledge and insight about every precise detail regarding the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord does not mean that they did not principally understand it. They did."

Some of us prefer to understand scripture literally. If Peter did not preach 1 Cor 15:1-4 to Israel in Acts 2 and 3, we don't want to assume that he must have done it "off scripture".

 

[tribesman]

They will if they hear and believe the gospel of our Lord Jesus. You think so called end time prophecies of Israel turning to God are future, but they speak of Christs earthly ministry and the days of the Apostles onward.

You are completely ignoring Pauls teaching that the promises were made to a man of great faith, Abraham, and to his son, Jesus Christ. You don't see the heartache Paul had for his kinsmen according to the flesh, because they thought they were the chosen people of God, but were dying in their sins.

He said it to unbelieving Jews in other places, but why bother directing you to them? Concerning the forsaken, it's always because people forsook God first, but it's obvious those who fell in the wilderness were ultimately forsaken by God, because you can't inherit a land you're never going to enter.


Bs. Jesus said that in the temple to Jewish people, probably the priests.

Definitely thought-worth. This "end-time prophecy" thingy is very delusive but it's big business and its drawing the itching ears.

 

[tribesman]

I think they rather not have to assume, as you did, that "That all the Saints of old did not have the exact knowledge and insight about every precise detail regarding the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord does not mean that they did not principally understand it. They did."

Some of us prefer to understand scripture literally. If Peter did not preach 1 Cor 15:1-4 to Israel in Acts 2 and 3, we don't want to assume that he must have done it "off scripture".

Literally? Cherry-pickingly so or always? So, Jesus is a literal door? "I am the door" (John 10:9).

Paul said as he did in Acts 26. It's really him you are arguing with.

 

[Guojing]

Literally? Cherry-pickingly so or always? So, Jesus is a literal door? "I am the door" (John 10:9).

Paul said as he did in Acts 26. It's really him you are arguing with.

I am saying if you view their doctrine as "problematic and in error" from your perspective, yours may be too, from their perspective.

That's all.

 

[tribesman]

I am saying if you view their doctrine as "problematic and in error" from your perspective, yours may be too, from their perspective.

That's all.

And then this ping-pong game continues without end.

 

[Guojing]

And then this ping-pong game continues without end.

That is why we discuss different perspectives of scripture in such forums.

 

[tribesman]

That is why we discuss different perspectives of scripture in such forums.