Who is the 12th apostle in Rev 21:14?
- Thread starter FreeGrace2
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Jesus came to die for our sins. And preach the Good News of same. And that salvation is by faith in Him alone. The Jewish "doctrines" of Jesus' day was all about legalism. That's why the Pharisees hated Him, among other things.
Regardless, the point remains that ONLY Paul received the GC personally by Jesus, the SAME WAY "the 11" did.
Whose name do you think will be the 12th on the foundation of the NJ?
Regardless, the point remains that ONLY Paul received the GC personally by Jesus, the SAME WAY "the 11" did.
Whose name do you think will be the 12th on the foundation of the NJ?
Yeah, I say the same thing knowing the Ancient Hebrews then Ancient Jews did not believe in a physical sinners HELL. And for Luke to just offer up such a UNKNOWN IDEALISM, when the other Gospels never mention this episode of events, is a real head scratcher indeed!
Hell in the Torah is the physical GRAVE!
They believe in a Devil's Hell, but not a sinners HELL!
Yeah, so, is this portion of the fake/Pergatorium between Abraham/Lazarus/Rich Man/Burning Sinners Hell/and the Rich Man trying to NEGOTIATE/BARGAIN/BARTER some Favors? Sounds 100% Catholic to me and just like their Doctrine of Purgatory!
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The Great Commission is for every believer. Using it to prove who's the 12th apostle is a misuse of scripture.
I would recomend that if anyone wants to talk theology, KNOW IT FIRST.
Yes, I could get articles from all over the internet to prove a point, but that doesn't prove I am educated.
Arguing to prove what we don't know is foolishness at best, & hypocrisy at worst.
I would recomend that if anyone wants to talk theology, KNOW IT FIRST.
Yes, I could get articles from all over the internet to prove a point, but that doesn't prove I am educated.
Arguing to prove what we don't know is foolishness at best, & hypocrisy at worst.
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FreeGrace2 said:
OK, let's begin by agreeing that Judas' name won't be on any of the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem.
He was a lost man. Peter makes clear in Acts 1 that Scripture prophesied that he would be replaced.
Isn't that something? Not believing what Jesus said, and said clearly.
But, what's new?
OK, let's begin by agreeing that Judas' name won't be on any of the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem.
He was a lost man. Peter makes clear in Acts 1 that Scripture prophesied that he would be replaced.
Isn't that something? Not believing what Jesus said, and said clearly.
But, what's new?
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Jesus gave the Great Commission (GC) only to "the 11" as noted in Matt 28:16-20 and Mark 16:14,15 plus Paul. And Paul was the greatest apostle ever, according to "the Acts of the Apostles", better known as the book of Acts.
Matthias was never presented the GC. It was presented to "the 11" before Jesus ascended and before Matthias was chosen by Peter's plan through lots. Jesus presented the GC to Paul directly. No doubt.
Matthias was never presented the GC. It was presented to "the 11" before Jesus ascended and before Matthias was chosen by Peter's plan through lots. Jesus presented the GC to Paul directly. No doubt.
Then please explain WHY Matt 28:16-20 and Mark 16:14,15 state that just the 11 were present.
And explain why there is NO mention of the GC in ANY of the epistles? If the GC were for every believer, it makes NO SENSE that none of the writers of the NT mentioned it.
And, if it were for every believer, then over 99% of all believers have failed to comply. Only those with the gift of teaching are "teaching them all the commands I have commanded you", per Matt 28.
No, it's USING the Scriptures to make a point.
Other than Acts 2, point me to every other mention of Matthias in the NT. I'll wait.
First, the 12 name on the foundation of the NJ isn't theology. It's simply a fact.
Second, I have shown that ONLY Paul received the GC personally from the Lord. Deal with it. And, I'm waiting for all the other mentions of Matthias in the NT.
To be clear, they would be "making a point", but hardly "proving a point". Are you aware of the diffrerence?
You are free to make your own opinions. But the FACT is that there will be 12 names on the foundation of the NJ. I sure ain't Judas. though Matthias was chosen through the casting of lots, an idea that Peter came up with, it's a legitimate question to ponder.
And the evidence points to Paul. I'm sure you'll be checking out the foundation of the NJ when we get there. I'll be in front.
And explain why there is NO mention of the GC in ANY of the epistles? If the GC were for every believer, it makes NO SENSE that none of the writers of the NT mentioned it.
And, if it were for every believer, then over 99% of all believers have failed to comply. Only those with the gift of teaching are "teaching them all the commands I have commanded you", per Matt 28.
No, it's USING the Scriptures to make a point.
Other than Acts 2, point me to every other mention of Matthias in the NT. I'll wait.
First, the 12 name on the foundation of the NJ isn't theology. It's simply a fact.
Second, I have shown that ONLY Paul received the GC personally from the Lord. Deal with it. And, I'm waiting for all the other mentions of Matthias in the NT.
To be clear, they would be "making a point", but hardly "proving a point". Are you aware of the diffrerence?
You are free to make your own opinions. But the FACT is that there will be 12 names on the foundation of the NJ. I sure ain't Judas. though Matthias was chosen through the casting of lots, an idea that Peter came up with, it's a legitimate question to ponder.
And the evidence points to Paul. I'm sure you'll be checking out the foundation of the NJ when we get there. I'll be in front.
Where did I say "must". I'm only pointing out some facts.
It is obvious that to have one's name on the foundation of the NJ means a high recognition. So, who do you think DESERVES this recognition more? Matthias, who is NEVER mentioned again or Paul, who became the DOMINANT apostle and did much more than all the rest?
It is obvious that to have one's name on the foundation of the NJ means a high recognition. So, who do you think DESERVES this recognition more? Matthias, who is NEVER mentioned again or Paul, who became the DOMINANT apostle and did much more than all the rest?
I'm sticking with Paul because Jesus is the cornerstone and Jesus chose the 12 foundations.
We will all be part of the New Jerusalem including Matthias the apostle one way or another.
It's going to be a whole new creation at that stage.
I won't be complaining if Matthias's name is a foundation instead of Paul's.
We will all be part of the New Jerusalem including Matthias the apostle one way or another.
It's going to be a whole new creation at that stage.
I won't be complaining if Matthias's name is a foundation instead of Paul's.
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Do you agree that having one's name on the foundation of the NJ is an honor?
If so, who appears from the facts of Acts to have earned that honor?
Who chose Matthias? Peter's plan
Who chose Paul? Jesus personally
All of these things are facts. No speculation.
More fact. Paul said he wasn't inferior to the "super apostles".
2 Cor 11:5 - I do not think I am in the least inferior to those “super-apostles.”
2 Cor 12:11 - I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,” even though I am nothing.
He admitted that he wasn't in the least inferior to the super apostles, yet he didn't consider himself as anything.
When all the facts are added up, it is clear who the 12th apostle was. Jesus' choice, not Peter's choice.
If so, who appears from the facts of Acts to have earned that honor?
Who chose Matthias? Peter's plan
Who chose Paul? Jesus personally
All of these things are facts. No speculation.
More fact. Paul said he wasn't inferior to the "super apostles".
2 Cor 11:5 - I do not think I am in the least inferior to those “super-apostles.”
2 Cor 12:11 - I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,” even though I am nothing.
He admitted that he wasn't in the least inferior to the super apostles, yet he didn't consider himself as anything.
When all the facts are added up, it is clear who the 12th apostle was. Jesus' choice, not Peter's choice.
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