Who is the 12th apostle in Rev 21:14?

[John146]

No, as I just properly showed, Damascus was then under ARABIAN rule, and after Paul preached there "IMMEDIATELY" for "many days" or three years, he went to Jerusalem.

Anyhow, what I've posted is there for anybody to read and research on their own.

It's not my job to browbeat anybody into submission, so I'll leave it at that.

I understand, not here to argue. Damascus may have been under Arabian control, but that doesn't make them Arabia. Paul went to Mt. Sinai in Arabia and returned to Damascus. He was at Damascus for three years before going to Jerusalem. I believe he was on Mt. Sinai for forty days receiving NT revelations from the Lord.

 

[Live4Him]

I understand, not here to argue. Damascus may have been under Arabian control, but that doesn't make them Arabia. Paul went to Mt. Sinai in Arabia and returned to Damascus. He was at Damascus for three years before going to Jerusalem. I believe he was on Mt. Sinai for forty days receiving NT revelations from the Lord.

Nowhere does the Bible say that Paul went to Mt. Sinai after his conversion.

Again, as far as his "revelations" are concerned, according to Paul's own testimony, he received the same when he was caught up to the third heaven or paradise...not when he was allegedly on Mt. Sinai.

Just saying.

 

[John146]

Nowhere does the Bible say that Paul went to Mt. Sinai after his conversion.

Again, as far as his "revelations" are concerned, according to Paul's own testimony, he received the same when he was caught up to the third heaven or paradise...not when he was allegedly on Mt. Sinai.

Just saying.

Being caught up to the third heaven is an example of the abundance of revelations Paul received. I believe it all started in Arabia. Paul would receive more revelations throughout his ministry.

Later in Galatians 4 we are told that mount Sinai is in Arabia.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

 

[Magenta]

OK, let's begin by agreeing that Judas' name won't be on any of the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem.
He was a lost man. Peter makes clear in Acts 1 that Scripture prophesied that he would be replaced.

Surprisingly, not everyone agrees with the assessment that Judas was doomed to destruction,
despite Jesus saying so... as well as Jesus identifying Judas a devil, and unclean.

 

[Live4Him]

Being caught up to the third heaven is an example of the abundance of revelations Paul received. I believe it all started in Arabia. Paul would receive more revelations throughout his ministry.

Later in Galatians 4 we are told that mount Sinai is in Arabia.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

I'm well aware of the reference to "mount Sinai in Arabia", but, in context, that has nothing at all to do with where Paul received his revelations.

No offense to you, but I'm really not going to belabor this point anymore than I already have.

 

[Magenta]

"Woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born” Matthew 26:24

 

[FreeGrace2]

I haven't read all of the posts, but I believe it to be Matthias. Matthias was a witness of the Lord's resurrection.

Over 500 witnessed His resurrection at one time. That doesn't earn a place on the foundation of the NJ.

He was appointed by the Lord as the replacement for Judas.

No, that is an assumption. Peter came up with the idea.

The new Jerusalem and the 12 foundations is pointing to the Jewish Apostles. Paul was also a chosen Apostle but to the Gentiles.

Paul was a Jew, a Pharisee. Doesn't matter where they preached.

For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Just a thought...

Here is the key. The 11 received the GC personally from the Lord. So did Paul. No one else qualifies.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What is the great commission? Who first coined this phrase and why?

I don't know, or care. The point is that what Jesus said in Matt 28:19,20 and Mark 16:14,15 and Acts 1:8 was ONLY to "the 11". And also to Paul on the road to Damascus.

The point of the thread is about who is the 12th name on the foundation of the NJ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Just more error on your part as anyone who is truly familiar with the New Testament ought to know.

In other words, "what else he (Paul) did" IS clearly said, contrary to your most recent erroneous claim.

For example, here is what Paul said in Galatians:

"But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; IMMMEDIATELY I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; BUT I WENT INTO ARABIA, AND RETURNED AGAIN UNTO DAMASCUS. Then after three years I went to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days." (Gal. 1:15-18)

Paul's time in "Arabia" was immediately after his conversion.

Does the Bible explain this?

It most certainly does.

In fact, Paul explained it himself, when he said:

"IN DAMASCUS the governor UNDER ARETAS THE KING kept the city of the Damascenes with a garrision, desirous to apprehend me: And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands." (II Cor. 11:32-33)

Although we normally view Damascus as a Syrian city, at this point in history, it was actually under the rule of King Aretas, THE KING OF ARABIA.

http://classic.net.bible.org/dictionary.php?word=Aretas

Greek

Strongs #702: Aretav Aretas

Aretes

1) An Arabian king

He made war in 36 A.D. on his son-in-law Herod Antipas for having divorced his daughter; and with such success as completely to destroy his army. In consequence of this, Vitellius, governor of Syria, being ordered by Tiberius to march an army against Aretes, prepared for war. But Tiberius meantime having died, (Mar. 16, 37), he recalled his troops from march, dismissed them to winter quarters, and departed for Rome. After his departure Aretas held sway over the region of Damascus (how acquired we do not know), and placed an ethnarch over the city, who tried to capture Paul.

With such being the case, Paul never had to leave Syria and travel to Arabia (as many teach) as that portion of Syria was presently under Arabian rule.

With this in mind, let's examine Luke's account of what transpired immediately following Paul's conversion and see if it doesn't perfectly match up with what Paul said in Galatians 1:17-18.

"And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: BUT THEY LED HIM BY THE HAND, AND BROUGHT HIM INTO DAMASCUS. And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. And there was a certain disciple AT DAMASCUS, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: And HERE he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. THEN WAS SAUL CERTAIN DAYS WITH THE DISCIPLES WHICH WERE AT DAMASCUS. AND STRAIGHTWAY HE PREACHED CHRIST IN THE SYNAGOGUES, that he is the Son of God. But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests? But Saul increased the more in strength, AND CONFOUNDED THE JEWS WHICH DWELT AT DAMASCUS, proving that this is very Christ. AND AFTER THAT MANY DAYS WERE FULFILLED, the Jews took counsel to kill him: But their lying in wait was known of Saul. And they watched the gates day and night to kill him. THEN THE DISCIPLES TOOK HIM BY NIGHT, AND LET HIM DOWN BY THE WALL IN A BASKET." (Acts 9:8-25)

Okay, what do we have so far?

1. Saul/Paul IMMEDIATELY preached AT DAMASCUS, which was then UNDER THE RULE OF THE KING OF ARABIA.

2. Saul/Paul preached AT DAMASCUS for MANY DAYS ("after that many days were fulfilled").

3. The Jews sought to kill Saul/Paul and he had to be let down by a wall in a basket.

Again, there's no need for some trip into "Arabia" (Paul was already there) where Paul allegedly spent a few years preparing for his ministry, as some teach.

The first people to whom Paul preached, according to his own testimony, were the people at Damascus, and Paul did so “straightway” (Acts 9:20) or immediately after his conversion.

We read:

"Whereupon AS I WENT TO DAMASCUS with authority and commission from the chief priests, At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I WAS NOT DISOBEDIENT UNTO THE HEAVENLY VISION, BUT SHEWED FIRST UNTO THEM OF DAMASCUS, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance." (Acts 26:12-20)

Paul was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but he shewed FIRST UNTO THEM OF DAMASCUS that they should repent and do works meet for repentance.

Again, Paul was preaching at Damascus, which was then under the rule of the Arabian King, Aretas, FOR MANY DAYS (Acts 9:23).

These "many days" are apparently the three years of which he spoke in Galatians.

Going back there, we read:

"Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. THEN AFTER THREE YEARS I WENT UP TO JERUSALEM TO SEE PETER, AND ABODE WITH HIM FIFTEEN DAYS." (Gal. 1:17-18)

Picking up where I previously left off in Luke's account in Acts, we read:

"And AFTER THAT MANY DAYS WERE FULFILLED, the Jews sought counsel to kill him. But their laying in wait was known of Saul. And they watched the gates day and night to kill him. Then the disciples took him by night, and let him down by the wall in a basket. AND WHEN SAUL WAS COME TO JERUSALEM, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple. BUT BARNABAS TOOK HIM, AND BROUGHT HIM TO THE APOSTLES, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, AND HOW HE HAD PREACHED BOLDLY AT DAMASCUS in the name of Jesus. AND HE WAS WITH THEM COMING IN AND GOING OUT AT JERUSALEM." (Acts 9:23-28)

It matches perfectly:

Preaching AT DAMASCUS, which was then under ARABIAN RULE for "many days" or three years and then GOING TO JERUSALEM.

What are you trying to prove, anyway?

 

[Live4Him]

What are you trying to prove, anyway?

I'm simply responding to erroneous claims that you've been making so that others don't get misled.

Do you have a problem with a Christian seeking to uphold the actual truth?

 

[John146]

Paul was a Jew, a Pharisee. Doesn't matter where they preached.

Well, Paul was specifically the Apostle to the Gentile world. The foundations are Jewish and point to the Jewish Apostles, and Matthias was the Apostle who replaced Judas.

 

[John146]

Over 500 witnessed His resurrection at one time. That doesn't earn a place on the foundation of the NJ.


No, that is an assumption. Peter came up with the idea.


Paul was a Jew, a Pharisee. Doesn't matter where they preached.


Here is the key. The 11 received the GC personally from the Lord. So did Paul. No one else qualifies.

Paul's great commissions was different than the Jewish Apostles. See Acts 26.

 

[Live4Him]

I don't know, or care. The point is that what Jesus said in Matt 28:19,20 and Mark 16:14,15 and Acts 1:8 was ONLY to "the 11". And also to Paul on the road to Damascus.

The point of the thread is about who is the 12th name on the foundation of the NJ.

"And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, AND THEM THAT WERE WITH THEM," (Luke 24:33)

That pesky Luke...

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
OK, let's begin by agreeing that Judas' name won't be on any of the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem.
He was a lost man. Peter makes clear in Acts 1 that Scripture prophesied that he would be replaced.

Surprisingly, not everyone agrees with the assessment that Judas was doomed to destruction,
despite Jesus saying so... as well as Jesus identifying Judas a devil, and unclean.

Isn't that something? Not believing whag Jesus said, and said clearly.

But, what's new?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'm simply responding to erroneous claims that you've been making so that others don't get misled.

I have provided clear evidence that Paul is the ONLY one who received the GC the same way that "the 11" did. Why is that not important to you?

Why are you so mesmerized with casting lots?

Do you have a problem with a Christian seeking to uphold the actual truth?

No, I do have a problem with a Christian who resists the truth.

You haven't shown any verse where Matthias or any other than "the 11" and Paul received the GC personally by Jesus.

And THAT is the truth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well, Paul was specifically the Apostle to the Gentile world.

True, but not the criteria for having one's name on the foundation of the NJ in Rev 21.

Paul is the ONLY person to receive the GC the same way "the 11" did. It should be obvious that "the 11" WILL have their names on the foundation. So, there's just 1 left. Obviously not Judas. And no one else, other than Paul.

The foundations are Jewish and point to the Jewish Apostles, and Matthias was the Apostle who replaced Judas.

Matthias was chosen by a plan of Peter's. Clearly. Jesus came to Paul face to face.

I'm going with the face to face encounter, rather than Peter's notions.

The Bible does record what Peter did and the rest of the 11 agreed to. That didn't make it a calling of God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Paul's great commissions was different than the Jewish Apostles. See Acts 26.

No sir. It was exactly the same. To make disciples and teach them everything that Jesus taught Him. Just like "the 11".

16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me.
17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them
18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
19 “So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven.
20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

The red words in v.16 documents that Jesus personally chosen him to be a witness. And in Acts 9:15 Jesus described Paul as "My chosen instrument". Quite compelling.

The blue words parallel exactly what Matt 28:19,20 and Acts 1:8 say.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, AND THEM THAT WERE WITH THEM," (Luke 24:33)

That pesky Luke...

OK, what's the context for Luke 24? Luke wasn't being "pesky" as you want him to be about my claim.

The context is the road to Emmaus. The 2 who walked with Jesus returned to Jerusalem to the 11 and those that were with them.

What follows isn't the GC, but a summary to the 11 about what Jesus had said to "the 11" in Galilee. Which was the GC. Only "the 11" were present. Same for Mark 16:14,15 and Acts 1:1-9.

 

[phil36]

What is the great commission? Who first coined this phrase and why?

I don't know, or care. The point is that what Jesus said in Matt 28:19,20 and Mark 16:14,15 and Acts 1:8 was ONLY to "the 11". And also to Paul on the road to Damascus.

You don't know and you don't care what the GC is (its in nearly every post you write) yet you continue to tell everyone they are wrong about the GC lol

What follows isn't the GC, but a summary to the 11 about what Jesus had said to "the 11" in Galilee.

 

[John146]

True, but not the criteria for having one's name on the foundation of the NJ in Rev 21.

Paul is the ONLY person to receive the GC the same way "the 11" did. It should be obvious that "the 11" WILL have their names on the foundation. So, there's just 1 left. Obviously not Judas. And no one else, other than Paul.


Matthias was chosen by a plan of Peter's. Clearly. Jesus came to Paul face to face.

I'm going with the face to face encounter, rather than Peter's notions.

The Bible does record what Peter did and the rest of the 11 agreed to. That didn't make it a calling of God.

21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Matthias was numbered with the eleven...